#1039558 - 11/07/05 12:22 PM
The truth about CD-R media
|
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES
|
Offline
|
|
Maybe this topic has been discussed in some detail in the manner that I am about to bring it up here, but I only hang out in a couple of forums, and have never seen the data that I want to raise with the folks here.
Over the past 3 years, I have been doing an enormous amount of testing of digital gear for interconnects and other issues that change the way things sound without necessarily changing the ones and zeros. I have come to lots of conclusions about various interconnects, jitter, etc., but I'm now getting ready to increase the mastering portion of my business and embark on some modest tower duplication projects, and this has led me to a whole new series of tests.
My basic aim is to try really make sure I am hearing what I am hearing at all times, and to give my clients the maximum chance of hearing something highly similar to what I am hearing. To that end, I have been testing the audible characteristics of the primary exhange medium for this work: the CD-R.
I want to stress from the outset that I am NOT talking about CD-R data errors or the use of CD-R media for data storage. I am talking only about the ability of a CD-R to play back IN REAL TIME on a CD player and deliver predicatable sonic results that are identical sonically to what a manufactured CD would do when playing back the identical file.
Although I would have once scoffed at the idea that the same ones and zeros would sound different in real time on different CD-R media, I am sad to say that this is the truth, and must be a function of reflectivity and/or track spacing issues on the different media.
My initial tests about a year ago found that the "worst" media could radically collapse the stereo image and significantly change the apparent overall eq of a mix. Yet, when copied to a computer from this media then burned to different CD-R media, everything would be restored. This was absolutely repeatable when using the blue-green dye media of a certain manufacturer (bad) and transferring to the MAM-A/Mitsui Gold discs (good)....I thought at that time that this was all I needed to know, and that if I just used the MAM-A Golds, as expensive as they are, I would never have to worry about things sounding the way they really are for reference discs, or for tower duplicated discs.
Since then, I have found that not to be the case, and I have also done quite a bit of testing with the silver-dye CD-Rs (both MAM-A and Tayo Yuden), and the results are even more confusing: Every different kind of media sounds different from one another, and, more frighteningly, every different burn speed using the same media sounds different, at least on the burner and DAW rig I have been testing things with.....and slower speeds were definitely not always better (better being, supposedly, the closer representation of my concept of the original file or the original file as played back on a manufactured CD).
The results, as I have said before, are entirely repeatable on my test rig (player with AES output clocking the same converters every time). The unfortunate truth is that results also are quite evident, with the relatively the same kind of differences as on the test rig, when using all my cheap, consumer CD players.....Even my car player!
None of the CD-Rs I am using now exhibit the extreme image collapse that I heard on the blue-greens initially, but they all exhibit obvious apparent eq shifts from one to the other, and some show marked loss of detail.
So, the real question, as always, is which version is the real version of my mix or mastering effort?
The aim here is to try to find some media that sound very close to what a manufactured CD will sound like, since the manufactured CDs that I have been responsible for have not exhibited any of these oddities.
I am embarking on the final set of tests around this issue now. These will involve making some copies, both via DAW and tower Duplicator, of some manufactured CDs that I am very familiar with and trying to assess the results....looking for the best media/burn speed combo that results in the clone that plays back most nearly like the manufactured CD. I will be doing some careful file comparisons for errors during the process, but I really don't expect to find any....we'll see.
I am not currently feeling very heartened. I'm going to be attending a duplication seminar this week and hope to get some additional experiential info on this there, but, frankly, I have never heard anyone describe this problem in the kind of detail or in the manner that I have found it to exist.
If anyone out there can enlighten me further, I would appreciate it.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039559 - 11/07/05 05:27 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
paully
Platinum Member
Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 1074
Loc: Northern New Jersey
|
|
Offline
|
|
Mud, interesting experiment!
Two questions. As 4x has been considered the best tradeoff for sonics vs. errors, what speed are you currently using.. day to day. Also, what brand of CD are you using for cost-prohibitive jobs (still the Mitsuis?), or is there an acceptable brand that is reasonably priced? I've used Memorex discs for a while for one-off stuff, and they sound pretty much like the original board feed when A-B ed.
Paul
_________________________
WUDAYAKNOW.. For the first time in my life, I'm wrong again!!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039560 - 11/07/05 08:28 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7376
|
|
Offline
|
|
The real problems will arise for you with dup houses, and until you set up a working relationship with one, you are still going ot be dissappointed. This issue gets tossed around and around.... really, DDP is probably the best way to store the data, but few people have the software to do this. (It is a part of Sequoia, and used to/might still be an add-on for Samplitude). Then the issue is the delivery medium. One would assume that a simple DVD should be acceptable, but what happens when the rep house sends you back a full run of DVDs instead of CDs? So the prefered media is still hard drive. (Yeah, 16xx U-Matics are long gone, thank goodness...) I'd like to get a standard established... remember zebra tape? Maybe zebra markings on the DVD to indicate that it is destined to be a CD, not a DVD. But this is harder to impliment than one might imagine, and there is basically no way to account for the "stupid mistake". (Those who seek to make things completely foolproof underestimate the ingenuity of the complete fool.)
In any case, most feel that TYs burned on a Plextor Premium burner is about as good as it gets. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on speed or problem since they eliminated the prefered 1x from the options, because of the number of available speeds and the size of the digital word that determines burn speed. (Since MEs are such a small part of the user base, their needs carried less weight.)
Glenn Meadows is a fountain of info on this subject, as is Bob Katz. Both are easy to reach, and more than happy to help.
I've been punking out for years. I hand the client the final in whatever form they want it... as DDP on DVD or hard disk, or on CDDA, and let them deal with the rep houses. This keeps me out of that end of the business, absolves me of any responsibility, and allows me to worry about more important things.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039561 - 11/07/05 10:52 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
blas
Gold Member
Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Mud, Please, please do keep us posted as you delve deeper into the unknown (to me). I would really like to be enlightened in this area. I made a small attempt about 5 years ago to "test" the claimed product life of different brand disc. I had a handful on companies send me samples, I took them to a local lab that has those machines that 'age items' with light, heat, moisture, etc. in the end the scientist involved said they all lasted about the same. The low end ones were those CompUSA in store brand. The real problem was getting them to state HOW long we could expect them to last...they danced around the answer for over 30 minutes. So much for getting an article in one of the trades with my name on it!!!
Soooooooooo, you are not alone.
blas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039562 - 11/07/05 11:08 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7376
|
|
Offline
|
|
Shelf life differs from post-burn life. Shelf life seems to be about 5 years or so, while accelerated aging tests (done about ten years ago) put post burn life at about 100 years or so.
Anyone with any practical experience will laugh at these numbers. It is very much media and burner dependent, with older disks and drives being very parituclar about how well they interacted.
Meanwhile, I have played back CDs burned by me on my first CD burner (remember when they were $3k and disks were $27.50 each?), and the ones that play back best and with fewest errors from the old days are the Mitsumi yellow disks. Many of the others have mixed playback results, and some won't play at all. So since TY took the lead as the top quality CD (not DVD) media, I've been using them for mission critical work, and whatever is on sale for references, transient data, and other uses that don't require a long lifespan. All in all, the 60 or 70 cents that the quality disks cost will not break me.
Mud, you say that you are not interested in the errors. Why?
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039563 - 11/08/05 11:12 AM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
I am most certainly interested in errors, but all my tests to this point have not shown there to be errors. My next round of testing (which won't start until I get back from the little duplication seminar I'm attending tomorrow) will certainly include error calculations as part of the whole picture.
As far as masters for dupe (replication) houses, I have found the Mitsui (MAM-A) gold discs to be absolutely fine (and I burn my masters at 4X on a Yamaha burner currently)....This is not the issue I am discussing.
As indicated in my initial post, I am not talking about errors or data storage, and the issuse has been, at least partially, misunderstood here. Like I said, I don't think I have seen anyone talk about this issue before: I am strictly talking about real-time playback of CD-Rs on CD players, and the fact that the same file on different media (or the same media at different burn speeds) will sound audibly different....
My initial tests taking files to bad sounding media and back again to good sounding media would seem to verify that data errors are not the issue. My final tests will incorporate data comparisons and start with a known, stable manufactured (replicated) CD as the control and file source.
As indicated above, 4X MAM-A Gold is the current "standard" I have been following, both for masters and reference playback. I will tell you what I come up with after further tests. Tests I did several days ago indicated that a 1X burn from my workstation on the MAM-A Gold did not sound as "good" as the 4X during real time playback, and a 2X burn sounded markedly different from the other two!
Until I set up the controlled experiment starting with the replicated CD, however, the results will not be totally intelligible.....The files I have been testing are from a project that has been delayed by the distributor, so I may have to choose another project that is already out to test from...One of the other issues I am looking at is the dithering method I have chosen for the last 2 years, and I only have one other disk in the marketplace that has used this method....I know the disk well, but, unlike the material I have been using, it is a solo artist with a little less complexity in the sonic content to focus on when listening....We'll see what I hear and what other info I pick up at the seminar tomorrow.
Again, I am only talking about real time playback of CD-R media. The cost factor comes into play with my intent to start doing small runs of tower duplicated CDs. The difference per unit cost can swing by around 70 cents. That is a pretty big difference, and I want to make sure I understand the quality issues totally before I start giving out prices and pontificating on the quality of my services.....If people were only taking CDs and dumping them into their computers as the first part of their listening process, this would not matter in the least. However, plenty of people still listen on regular CD players, so it does matter.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039564 - 11/08/05 12:31 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7376
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by mudsmith@earthlink.net:
I am most certainly interested in errors, but all my tests to this point have not shown there to be errors.
As indicated in my initial post, I am not talking about errors or data storage, and the issuse has been, at least partially, misunderstood here. Like I said, I don't think I have seen anyone talk about this issue before: I am strictly talking about real-time playback of CD-Rs on CD players, and the fact that the same file on different media (or the same media at different burn speeds) will sound audibly different....
Tests I did several days ago indicated that a 1X burn from my workstation on the MAM-A Gold did not sound as "good" as the 4X during real time playback, and a 2X burn sounded markedly different from the other two!
..One of the other issues I am looking at is the dithering method ...
How are you testing for errors?
"Like I said, I don't think I have seen anyone talk about this issue before:"
Like I said, maybe not around here. The mastering guys have been discussing it for years and years.
"Tests I did several days ago indicated ..."
Okay. Which one sounded like the original mix, coming from the mastering speakers, prior to any burn?
Ahhh.. dithering. Another squirmy can of worms. (again.... this gets pulled up and revisited as technology offers changes.) Don't forget SCR! There's another one.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039565 - 11/09/05 07:39 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
Some new info and avenues for research from today's
seminar, which was hosted by Media Supply and had presentations by folks from MAM-A, Verbatim and the major printer and duplicator reps.
I spent quite a bit of time with the MAM-A guy, who is actually their head of engineering. His response was "I've been hearing about this over the years from some of the old pros, but, no, I have never had it demonstrated to me or been able to test for it"....So saying, he agreed to have me send him some examples of what I am talking about, and to run tests on all the CD-Rs I send him...The tests I have been running are limited to bit-for-bit file comparisons, which do not show some of the potential kinds of real-time errors that can occur, apparently.....or maybe not. We'll see what his high-end tests reveal.
Both he and the Media Supply guys had some very interesting other things to say, which made a lot of sense:
"We find that our high-speed media (certified for 52X) produce the best results when burning at 20X to 24X (!). Burning at slower speeds will definitely not produce as good results. We do make some slow speed discs for that purpose, but you have to realize that a lot of development goes into the dye formulation so that it will react to the speed and laser power at that speed..." They were talking specifically about creating the best audio master CD-Rs with the fewest errors of all kinds.
"Different burners will definitely have different built-in strategies to recognize and handle the different media...some more successfully than others....We like the Japanese drives"...Everyone was very high on the Plextor drives as a standard. There was no Plextor rep there.
"The Cyanin dye creates pits with rounded edges, whereas the Phthylocyanine dye creates pits with sharper edges because of its burst response to the laser. The sharper edge is less prone to creating read errors." This, of course, from the MAM-A guy about the dye which they hold the patent for, but it does explain some of the extreme interleave errors I have heard on the cheaper discs.
There was quite a bit of other info about longevity, environmental damage, print surfaces and duplicator and printer operation and maintenance which I was going there to get, but I thought the stuff above might be of interest to those following this thread.
I found the seminar to be pretty balanced without trying to pitch any one brand of anything, with all the presenters being careful to not trash any product line.
Two other interesting facts:
The Verbatim guy said that anything sold with the Verbatim label on it will actually be of the same quality (even if at WalMart) as Verbatim discs sold thtough pro vendors. All Verbatim-labeled discs comme off the same assembly line at the same plant, and it would be too costly to stop and start for different quality lines of product. Verbatim was pitching the higher quality of their printable surface, especially for inkjet printing....Media Supply said that Verbatim quality control was very high, BTW.
The MAM-A guy said that their super high end, expensive "Archive" series of Gold discs are actually manufactured with the same process as their other Gold disc. No essential difference, but they do make an extra effort at QC for this line.
Hope this info is useful.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039566 - 11/09/05 08:26 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7376
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by mudsmith@earthlink.net:
...The tests I have been running are limited to bit-for-bit file comparisons, ...
"We find that our high-speed media (certified for 52X) produce the best results when burning at 20X to 24X (!).
""Different burners will definitely have different built-in strategies to recognize and handle the different media.."
Yes, and this also relates to the burn speed issue. Oh, and also pit geometry, which you mention further down.
Another potential problem area is that sometimes the disks are not drilled properly, or perfectly centered. I have not experienced this one, but got it from a guy at a rep house a couple of years ago.
"All Verbatim-labeled discs comme off the same assembly line ..."
That does not mean that they are all of the same quality. They even have QC people pulling bad candy from assembly lines and placing it in various quality bins.
I'm staying with TY, because they have worked for me with fewer errors for years and years. I buy the white-topped ones, and print them with my Epson R-300. I don't do more than a handful though... there are too many guys like you with duping towers for me to even bother. If you were to come to me and want a dozen copies, I'd send you to someone that I know who wants that kind of work.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039567 - 11/10/05 08:13 AM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member
Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES
|
|
Offline
|
|
TY and MAM-A do seem to be the only real players for anybody looking for consistency and quality on the CD-R front....The Media Supply folks were not really pushing the Verbatim, and they sell them in the "inexpensive" category.....One way of interpreting the statements of the Verbatim rep might simply have been, BTW, that the quality of the print surface was identical on all Verbatim-labeled discs.
On the DVD-R front, however, this may be different. I don't have enough data there yet to understand the issues, and the Verbatim DVD blanks seem to have a fairly good rep....MAM-A has just come out with a Gold DVD-R and +R, which seems like the obvious choice for masters.
...I have to tell you that buying one of the high-end testers might be in the cards if my mastering business gets significant enough.
What has been your long-term experience with the inkjet images on the TY discs? The two issues with inkjet seem to be: 1)high potential for moisture damage 2)gradual bleeding of colors across their boundaries in the print surface.
"Guys like me" with tower duplicators...that's a laugh. I have not bought one yet, just doing research. I am hoping to get a setup together that might do batches of 100 or so and make some profit....We'll see. The real money is on the DVD side of things, I think.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039568 - 11/10/05 08:46 AM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7376
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by mudsmith@earthlink.net:
On the DVD-R front, however, this may be different.
...I have to tell you that buying one of the high-end testers might be in the cards ...
What has been your long-term experience with the inkjet images on the TY discs? ...
"Guys like me" with tower duplicators...that's a laugh. ...
I've also seen some issues with the Plextor DVD burners beeing tossed around. I think that it was one specific model, though. I have a Plextor DVD and for my purposes it has been just fine. But CDs for clients get burned on the Plextor Premium CD burner... that is what I bought it for.
You can do a lot of error testing from the Plextools and a Plextor Premium. $150 verses $25,000.... seems like a no-brainer unless you really have a boatload of work. I thought that you -did- have the tower, in something that you said earlier. Given how cheap the dup houses are doing small runs, if you do not alreay own the stuff, why not just be a broker? No investment.
If you are going to be a short run dupng house, buy a high-speed duper, get one that burns and then prints and stacks automatically... yes, they cost more than building a towner and running it with Fiero software, but the labor savings is worth it. Believe me, hand-feeding CDs through an inkjet printer is stupid, mind-numbing bullshit. It takes too long, there is too much chance of error, you need space to lay out the disks as they dry, and by the time that you have done ten, you are ready for the long walk off of the shirt pier.
As to the use of inkjet in general.... inkjets suck. I have my trusty old HP 4P which I still use for any business corespondence, and there is simply no comparing inkjet print quality to laser print quality.
And yes, there is bleed, and there is fade, and if you wet them down, you get what you get. But really, I am not in the habit of pissing on my CDs or using them as coasters, so that issue has never been an issue for me. And I always handle disks by the edges. (Hint... don't print to the edges....leave a saftey margin.) In terms of fade and bleed, good label design helps. This is also why I have chosen white instead of silver printable surfaces. Less ink.
And inkjet ink is expensive... the six colors run about $11 each.. so the $175 printer still costs a great deal to operate. Again, sensible label design will help.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039569 - 11/10/05 10:04 PM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
blas
Gold Member
Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Mud and Bill, Good info you're postin'. We've got an old Orbit unit that keeps cranking 'em out at about 1500 disc a year (load the hopper and check back in an hour). I'm fearful of the day she dies (got a back-up Bravo CD/DVD burner/printer in wraps, not even wired to the computer in the dup area). I guess I've been extremely lucky as we roll with...slipped my mind, CD Pro? So far, so good. We print with a Signatue III inkjet which IS a PITA having to hand load each disc. The printing really looks best on the silver face over the white.
As to the indepth aspect to the conversation... please keep us posted.
blas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1039570 - 11/11/05 12:10 AM
Re: The truth about CD-R media
|
jackpine
Platinum Member
Registered: 02/11/01
Posts: 1855
Loc: Luck,WI
|
|
Offline
|
|
I've been running a Microboards Saturn II for years now. It has an attached robotic Sig III inkjet printer and as Bill said, inkjets suck.... but it works for what it is...an ink jet. Don't get them wet and don't expect them to look like they were screened.
I use TY BTW, have had nothing but good luck with both their longevity and sound. So they cost a bit more.... If you buy 'em by the 1000 they get cheap enough. Not enough of a difference for me to use anything else.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
