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#1038750 - 03/09/05 12:50 AM Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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Over in the Keyboard Corner, radiospace said this:

Quote:
The additional features in Logic Pro are well worth the upgrade from Logic Express...
First, I'll pose the question: for what I'm doing, should I get Logic or Logic Pro? Or, should I buy something like an Mbox and get ProTools LE?

Something to consider: I can get Logic Express 7 for $99 and Logic Pro 7 for $299 through my university.

A little background is needed.

I'm a journalism student who just bought a new PowerBook G4 (there went all my student loan money...). I do a little bit of radio work, such as news and feature stories, for the college radio station (as part of our Radio News class), but some of my work may eventually make it on a statewide public radio program, so I want a quality set-up.

What I do is mostly using my own voice recordings (for the stories themselves), with actualities (aka sound bites from interviewees) and natural (background) sound. A multitrack editor is a must for this, for simplicity's sake, but it doesn't need to be a full recording studio set-up.

At school, we use Adobe Audition (used to be Cool Edit Pro). My instructor uses ProTools LE with a Digidesign Mbox at her personal studio.

I have little experience with other software packages.

So, my recording and editing needs are simple compared to a full 24-track studio setup. I'm usually just recording one track at a time into a minidisc recorder or eventually into a professional compact flash-based Marantz recorder. However, I would like to keep the possibility for multitrack recording open in the future--say I was conducting an in-studio interview with three mics and wanted to be able to manipulate the three channels separately--when I eventually purchase a multichannel audio interface. I was thinking along the lines of Mackie's Onyx 1220 with the FireWire card. (That's another subject to tackle in a later post.) Cheap 12-channel input (I don't need 12-channel output), and it'll function as a decent analog mixer if I need one.

(I'm also a volunteer sound engineer with our 3,500-member church. We use a pretty good setup with two Yamaha M3000 desks (monitors and FOH)and EAW SLAMs for FOH speakers. The band is really good. We sometimes do CD recordings, live and in the studio (and in someone's shop) and although we have a MOTU 828 with Cubase SX on a PC, my little rig might be a nice backup deal for smaller things or even additional channels. But again, that's fodder for a future post.)

In any case, so I might use it for light-duty studio work, but my primary focus will be radio. What's everyone's opinion on the audio software I should invest in? Should I go the Logic route, and if so, Express or Pro (remember my cheap academic pricing), or should I look at an Mbox and ProTools or even something else?

Any comments on future gear purchases that I've mentioned here, such as the mixer/interface or something?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Chris
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#1038751 - 03/09/05 04:40 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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I think Logic Pro would be overkill for your particular needs as it is geared toward the composer in mind and is bundled with many virtual instruments and PTLE w/M-Box more suited toward your needs.If you need more quality i/o consider the 002 or 002-R in the future.The Mackie Oynx is a good idea if you need more quality i/o right now and it comes bundled with multitrack software(Traktion I believe),their both will run you similar money once you expand but for radio broadcasting PT's compatibility should be considered.
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#1038752 - 03/09/05 06:02 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
where02190
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Mackie/Loud technologies Spike (whihc comes wth Tracktion) might be a better choice. No track limitation (like the 32 track limit in PTle) midi i/o(lacking on the M-box) and a great plugin package for the same price as an M-Box. I've been using Tracktion for about 18 months now and it's very intuitive. the XD-2 interface pres and converters are IMHO much better than the M-box, and, unlike the M-box it will do 96k.
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#1038753 - 03/09/05 02:02 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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Thanks for the replies so far. Sorry for my rambling, but I think my needs will be understood best if I just lay out my train of thought for all to see.

The ProTools compatibility with other people doing radio work would be really nice, so that puts a plus in the Mbox column. Plus, I'm a little familiar with ProTools, and it's flexible and powerful. The 32 simultaneous track limit shouldn't be a problem for me. The most I've ever used at once was five (well, one of those was a stereo track, so six), and that was for a complicated radio drama. More on this in a second.

I like the specs on Mackie's XD-2. The 96KHz sampling is nice, but rarely will it be used in radio--even FM isn't near CD-quality. A lot of radio people I know are using minidisc recorders for portable work. They don't even know or care about balanced mics and things--they're just using an XLR to 1/8" adaptor cable into the mic port on the minidisc player, which is unbalanced and probably the wrong impedance (specs like that aren't available on this consumer-level equipment). So super-duper quality isn't a need in radio.

Having said that, the reason I don't want to do the same is that it rubs me the wrong way. Having been brought up in the pro live sound world, both at my church and having worked a little with some pro sound guys in town, and also having dabbled in the studio environment, I'd like to (for peace of mind) keep my audio as clean as possible.

So, with the M-box and Spike, it's (for me) six of one, a half-dozen of the other. Perhaps more people can weigh in on their experiences, both with the hardware and software packages of those two. One plus with the M-box: it's bus-powered. Handy in portable situations. Oh, and I know Mackie's been making some great stuff lately, but they've kind of had the stigma of being pro audio's little brother: they make great cheap gear, but it's geared towards people who need exactly that: great cheap gear. Before we upgraded to the Yamaha consoles, we used a Mackie 32x4. We had problems with the summing op-amp overloading if we had too much going on. It's a great board, but it's a cheap board. Does the XD-2 really compete with something on Digidesign's level, or is it a knockoff? Since the prices are comparable, I'm inclined to believe that it actually is a good piece of equipment. I just want someone to tell me that.

When I'm recording an interview, it would typically be just one or two channels of audio. The M-box and XD-2, with their portability, would be a plus here, but then again, maybe I'd just as soon take a Marantz flash recorder and use that during the interview. It might be too much hassle to set up the whole computer for a 5-15 minute talk with someone.

Back at the home front, I'd be doing more complicated things. In addition to perhaps working with music recordings (perhaps with the women's group from the church), I'd also like to be able to do multitrack recording for things like radio dramas or other live shows. The last radio drama we did, we had the radio production studio's control board outputting just a stereo signal to the computer. It was really, really difficult to, say, lower Hercule Poirot's too-loud passage when the sofly-spoken elevator man was speaking at the same time, since they were both on the same track. Multitrack recording would have solved this problem. I'd like to keep options like that open.

So for the home front, we're looking at something along the lines of a DigiRack 002 ($1.2k! ouch!) or a Mackie Onyx 1220 with FireWire card ($800! almost ouch!). My same concern with Mackie equipment applies, but assuming it's a great piece of equipment, I think it would do fine.

Digi comes with ProTools LE; Mackie comes with Traktion. Both are good, I hear, except ProTools is compatible with some other people's studios--although a lot of radio people are still using CoolEdit/Adobe Audition, so that wouldn't matter. (So then, my question is if Traktion is a respected program.) But this big home-studio set-up is a purchase I'm not quite ready to make yet, but assuming I do go down that route and skip the M-box/XD-2 altogether, I'm going to need some software to edit my audio for now, because I do need to get a portable set-up going.

That leaves me back to where I started: Logic Pro or Logic Express? Or, should I just go ahead and spend the extra money for an M-box (remember my academic pricing means I can get Logic Pro for $299) and get ProTools LE with a bonus piece of tide-over hardware? Or should I look into Cubase or another software package? Or should I bite the bullet and get an Onyx or DigiRack now?

One advantage to Logic: if I end up getting an Onyx, I think Logic's compatible, and if I do record musical stuff, Logic might be nice.

OK, there's my train of thought in its entirety. I hope it wasn't too much of a roller coaster.

Thanks,
Chris
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#1038754 - 03/09/05 10:08 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
mudsmith@earthlink.net
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...As an old radio head (23 years of putting together shows for local public radio and NPR...), I have to say that my favorite radio production software is currently Wavelab. (It has all the effectiveness and sophistication of the multitrack programs, but all the quality and speed of the stereo-only programs). It is simply very fast and very high quality. I produce national programs with it on a regular basis, and I have yet to find anything that it cannot do faster and better than anything else I have seen in this realm.
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#1038755 - 03/09/05 10:13 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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Wavelab by Steinberg? Darn it...I just looked it up, and it's PC only.

Thanks for the note, though! It's nice to see there are other radio-oriented folk on this board. That encourages me.

Chris
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#1038756 - 03/10/05 01:29 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jackal:
Wavelab by Steinberg? Darn it...I just looked it up, and it's PC only.
I have Wavelab myself,but it's a 2 track audio editing program.Fine for radio perhaps but won't help in multitrack endeavors you alluded to later.Again,Logic is geared toward the composer/virtual instruments/loops/midi and audio multitrack and has a steep learning curve.While it would get the job done it doesn't seem to be what your asking for.If I were in your shoe's I'd go either 2 ways,I'd either get PTLE w/M-Box with future plans to to expand to an 002R,or go the Mackie route and take advantage of the bundled Traction and call it a day.Traction is fine and more than capable of practically anything with an easy learning curve.So at the end of the day it comes down to wether PT compatibility is important to you,if not,don't waste your money,if it is,your wasting your money on anything else.Also keep this in mind,although the M-Box and 002 have optional Asio drivers they are not garanteed to be smooth sailing with other apps(for some people they work fine,others.....),while the mackie unit is designed for everthying else.At the end of the day it's wether you need PT or not for compatibility reasons or you like the software and/or see the experience as benificial in other studios you might work in.This is the choice you have to make.
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#1038757 - 03/10/05 06:38 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
where02190
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The XD-2 is defintely no low grade knock off, it is IMHO superior to the M-box in many ways.

Converter quality
Preamp quality
Midi i/o
96K
Portability.

While the XD-2 does have a wallwart, it can function without it. Ithe wart powers the onboard DSP.

The M-box case is anything but portable, the feet that stick out either side are nonretractable, making the unit several inches wide. the XD-2 has a rotatable foot that when in the retracted postiion makes the unit less than 2" thick.

You can easily render and export tracks to Protools with full compatibility including BWF tomecode. Given the small number of tracks you anticipate using this would be a simple procedure, and take no mroe time than transfering a PT session.

The XD-2 is solidly made, at least equal to the M-box, and IMHO it feels more rugged.

Latency is not nearly the factor in the XD-2 and Tracktion as it is with the M-box.

The XD-2 will support any software (except of course Protools) whereas the M-box supports only Protools.

Mackie support is excellent. they are in eary and stay late, typically there is little to no wait time, and they love to talk about their products. Also, unlike digi, their 800 number support has not expiration date, you can call them now or 3 years from now for help, and it won' t cost you a dime.
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#1038758 - 03/10/05 07:03 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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Hmm...that sounds good. I'm glad to know that it's better than the M-box. I'll strongly consider it.

I can get a Mackie Onyx 1220 later for the multichannel radio drama-type stuff and keep the XD-2 as a portable rig.

Or should I skip the Spike and go straight to Onyx?

So then, for the heck of it, just because I can, would anyone recommend me getting Logic Express 7 for the academic price of $99? I've decided against Logic Pro (at least for now). Is it worth it just to have it as an alternative to Traktion?

ProTools compatibility *may* be nice, but it's far from necessary. If Traktion does its job well, then I really don't have any real need for ProTools.

Chris
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#1038759 - 04/05/05 05:43 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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Someone pointed out the Lexicon Omega interface as an alternative to the Spike.

I looked at the specs. It looks nice, though I think I've settled on wanting something more portable (which the Spike is), and on the road, I doubt I'd need more than two channels.

However, I wanted to know if the Omega's audio quality is better than the XD-2's (the Omega says it has dbx Silver Series preamps). Do Mackie's preamps (I don't know if the XD-2 uses the Onyx preamps) compare well to dbx's?

Oh, and as I said before, down the road I'm looking at Mackie's Onyx 1220 mixer, as at home I could use a combo board and multichannel interface. However, I'd be open to looking at alternatives, even if they are slightly pricier, including the DigiRack 002, although I haven't done much research on that. Any comments?

Chris

P.S. Oh, I looked at a demo of Tracktion 2 available at the Mackie Web site. Fun, but the interface seems clunky. I guess I'm used to CoolEdit/Audition's way of doing things. I bought Logic Pro 7 at the $299 academic price, so we'll see how that goes over. It should be here any day.
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#1038760 - 04/05/05 10:51 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jackal:
Someone pointed out the Lexicon Omega interface as an alternative to the Spike.
Not sure what the Omega sounds like but Iv'e seen plenty of posts about crappy driver performance and the fact that it's stuck in the USB 1 spec.Although I'm not crazy about FireWire either I'll take it over USB and especially USB 1.
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#1038761 - 04/07/05 03:54 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
twentyamptwist
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I've used the Digi 001 for post- production, mixing, recording, etc. for an NHL team and it was great. I've mixed multi-tracked music on a ProTools HD in a professional mobile recording truck and it rocked. If I wanted, I could take a seesion from one place and open it and work on it in the other.

Pro Tools is in more studios in the world than any other system. The have been doing it longer than anyone and have excellent support. Plus, their systems just plain work. Hook up a LaCie D2 to your firewire 800 (or 400) port and you are laughing. Firewire was designed with audio/video data transfer in mind. USB can't compete.

Digidesign will credit you if you ever want to trade up to a bigger system.

I will always be a PT guy and I wouldn't EVER consider a PC based DAW. PCs are for email (barely).

20at
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#1038762 - 04/08/05 04:45 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by twentyamptwist:
If I wanted, I could take a seesion from one place and open it and work on it in the other.
That's if the other is not an older version and happens to have the same plugs(Iv'e seen dozens of problems with session importing first hand).DEA errors are a dime a dozen in PT.
Quote:

Pro Tools is in more studios in the world than any other system.
You got the sales rhetoric down pat
Quote:
plus, their systems just plain work.
So does my AMD based DAW,and flawlessly.
Quote:
Firewire was designed with audio/video data transfer in mind. USB can't compete.
Well,I'll take it over USB but not over PCI.
Quote:

Digidesign will credit you if you ever want to trade up to a bigger system.
The upgrade/software trap is well known.
Quote:

I wouldn't EVER consider a PC based DAW. PCs are for email (barely).
20at
I would consider a G5 running Logic or the new DP on the side(barely),but not over the Power of an AMD system(never).
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#1038763 - 04/08/05 04:51 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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#1038764 - 04/08/05 04:55 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Alndln
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jackal:
I'd be open to looking at alternatives, even if they are slightly pricier, including the DigiRack 002, although I haven't done much research on that. Any comments?
Well,you now have another alternative for SlowTools(tm).Digidesign anounced that M-Audio Products will be compatible with the new M-Powered Protools which is sold seperately for $349.00(MSRP).So you can now use the M-Audio FW 410($399.00)or even the Audiophile($99.00)putting you under the cost of an 002R and you don't have to put up with the dreaded Dropout Box...err...I mean M-Box.However,this isn't a solution for the famous "DAE Errors". \:D
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#1038765 - 04/30/05 08:35 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
mjm
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For your needs, a Firewire 410 (as Alndlnsta mentioned) would probably suit your needs (esp. since the Audiophile won't work on the Powerbook 'cause it's a PCI card), ring up M-Audio and ask if they know of any distributors who sell their products at an educational discount.

As far as software is concerned...

Pro Tools M-Powered would probably suit your needs, mixer-wise you can't go wrong with anything by Mackie.

I can't really better that. I will however say that Logic Express is just fine at recording audio though and if money is an issue, go with a Firewire 410/Logic option. We use Logic everyday where I'm at, I've recorded nice String Quartets with it as well as vocals, editing-wise Pro Tools is the leader but Logic is a great contender and if you did feel like a bit of composition, Logic is great (imho the best) with MIDI.
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#1038766 - 05/01/05 06:36 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
2_dup13
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Logic Express hands on
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#1038767 - 05/03/05 06:02 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
BOOKUMDANO
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I'll confuse the conversation by reprinting something I just posted somewhere else...

Ok, here is the absolute most unscientific test you can make to find the best daw. Go to Google advanced and type in these three random words-

daw...logic...problems

or

daw...nuendo...problems

or

daw...sonar...problems

or

daw...protools...problems

Here are your results as of a moment ago-

Logic...31,200 pages of problems
Nuendo...7,350 pages of problems
Sonar...10,900 pages of problems
Protools..9,350 pages of problems

drum roll...and the numbers say the best daw is...Nuendo (YEA..that's the one I use anyway!!)

It may be inappropriate for me to slam Logic, but I will say that the 31,200 pages of problems isn't surprising to me. I have never seen so many complaining users as I do from Logic users ...on most any type of forum I go to.

By the way, Nuendo is pc or Mac.
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#1038768 - 05/03/05 07:52 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
coxnvox
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How do you know it's not people posting:

"As far as a DAW, I have had no PROBLEMS whatsoever with LOGIC."

Also, for as popular as Pro Tools is, I have to say that the number of results seems favorably low.

Later,
kc
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#1038769 - 05/03/05 09:18 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
EoS
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hmm, just did a couple searches of my own

solving...logic.. problems 2,380,000

solving... Nuendo... problems" 924

or

Logic...sucks... daw 575

Nuendo... sucks...daw 1150

or

daw...nuendo..best 7310
daw... logic..best 39,500

\:D
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#1038770 - 05/03/05 09:50 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
BOOKUMDANO
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......hmm, just did a couple searches of my own
solving...logic.. problems 2,380,000
solving... Nuendo... problems" 924.....

Of course that could mean Logic had 2,380,000 problems to solve and Nuendo only had 924 problems to solve.

I told ya it was unscientific! But I still think Nuendo's the absolute best.
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#1038771 - 05/04/05 03:06 AM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
2_dup13
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Maybe just because Logic has more users than others, so the more users, the more posts.
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#1038772 - 06/20/05 07:12 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
Jackal
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OK, so after buying a bunch of hardware (including a Shure SM7B and a Mackie Onyx 1220) and a bunch of software (including Logic Pro and Final Cut Studio, including Soundtrack Pro), here's my analysis:

First of all, I spent way too much money for a poor college student. But that's OK.

Second of all, Soundtrack Pro is the closest thing to Adobe Audition. Some of its components are very clearly inspired by Logic, and its interface is similarly relatively difficult to learn (especially compared to Audition). But it's massively powerful and flexible, and it's exactly what I needed. The only downside is: I don't think it will actually record more than two channels at once, so if I end up recording a multichannel radio drama, I'll need to record in Logic and export to Soundtrack.

(I could have spent $99 on Soundtrack Pro alone, but I'm also going to be doing film production, so I thought FCS would be worth it. But that's another story.)

Logic is great and powerful and worth the $299 I spent on it, especially as I'll be doing some work with music production.

There you have it!

Jackal
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#1038773 - 07/05/05 04:06 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
(RhythmInMind)
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"The XD-2 will support any software (except of course Protools) whereas the M-box supports only Protools. "

just want to clarify that the the M-box has ASIO/core drivers that work well with other apps. i use my M-box with ableton live..

Also if your your working with others in the industry i understand the need for protools compatibitly .. it is a major factor why i switched over... I like having all options with the Mbox, protools or not..

I'm Also a fan of protools editing/mixing.. Every other software i've used has always had a major downside. Protools is a very surgical and flexible creation/mix/post app.. most of the others are only great at one of the 3...

see how many apps trip over themselves when you want to do something as simple as selecting a region and exporting that part to a file.. a handful of apps can only render out the master channel. i hate that... with some others you can internally bounce then rename and go and find the file.. i think you can get my point just the little things that add up. If your dealing with the radio, commercial, or post world. protools is a must....

have you checked out the M-audio M-powered protools options?
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#1038774 - 07/28/05 04:25 PM Re: Logic Express vs. Logic Pro...or ProTools LE?
JPA
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Chris:

Didn't GarageBand come with your Mac Laptop, if so that would be the only piece of software that you need. A good interface will probably cost you around $200 or $300, but I don't know if that is worth it for what you are doing. I think apple makes an interface that you could use for a much cheaper price.
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