#1003126 - 08/20/05 11:44 PM
Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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blas
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Let me start with saying (before Doug or Neil go for my throat), I realize the use of the LFE channel is designed for more film work. I realize the other 5 monitors should provide the full range....but, if George Martin and the Beatles would have followed all the rules of the 'guys in white coats' around them- would they have created the same magic we've come to know so well?
Since a portion of my work involves mobile sessions, dealing with 50-80 piece orchestras, there's a nice amount of "fill" or feel that could be brought to life will the idea of tracking a 'special' low end track. Now keep rollin' with me, yes you can sum and feed the LFE from the other mic's (I use a system that consist of an exploded Decca tree on the stage and a Jecklin disc with two ominis out in the audience area about 30 feet in front of the musicians and about 15 feet up). But I would love to figure a nice spot to place one more mic rolled off to only capture the ultra-lows. Would there be phasing issues, maybe/maybe not. But to be able to just add a little into the LFE could really be magic. So I'm open for idea's...grips...whatever comes my way. We are at the front end of things so powerful, we have to continue to push the edge before it's too late in our efforts.
Fire away!
Joe
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#1003127 - 08/21/05 02:33 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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doug osborne
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#1003128 - 08/24/05 04:25 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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AudioMaverick
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Absolutely! Filler mics are used to capture extra room sound all the time. The full audio spectrum is game for a special mic placement.
I wouldn't stop with just one mic, either. Lower frequencies can be more difficult to capture due to their response being more sound pressure than the upper frequencies. I would be bold enough to toss a mic back near the percussion section, to get the transient of the tymphani/bass drum. It doesn't take much in the mix to blend well with the room mics. And, for room, if the ones for the surround placement aren't capturing enough to give the room ambience, you could hang on under the jeklin.
Just some wild ideas...
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1003129 - 08/29/05 06:20 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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Neil Wilkes
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There is nothing wrong with the idea at all.
One of the things I used to do when mixing live - although not in Surround - was to set up a stack of Subs, and feed them not from the system crossovers but dial in from an FX send off each channel I wanted that extra "thump" on.
Okay - in general with music, LFE really should be avoided. But in the context you are talking about here, you really are using it as an LFE - Low Frequency EFFECTS. I like the idea a lot.
When the music dictates, rules are made to be broken. And some music, orchestral in particular, really benefits from this type of working. I only advise against using LFE as a replacement for full range mains......and so that new surround mixers learn that the 5 main channels should be full range.
Enhancing this with LFE is just fine....I'd like to hear some of your results at one point, if possible.
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#1003130 - 08/29/05 04:20 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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CraigHoward_dup1
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From my experience using the LFE for live orchestra, chamber,chorale recordings can be a "messy" situation because of phase issues. Also, the very low frequency information that could add "weight" or fullness to the sound is often masked by room noise, i.e., HVAC or even heat rising/air movements (with HVAC off) across mic diaphrams. I also use a "collapsed" Decca
tree, 4 foot spaced cardiods or omnis and center mic 6 inches forward. Generally with widely spaced omnis (10-15ft.) and 10 feet plus behind the tree. I add spot mics and time align. Other times I'll use a wide ORTF with center mic and rear omnis on one stand (imagine a spoked wheel). Again, spot mics. On one recording,
a 30 piece chorus, small woodwind/brass group, grand piano, upright bass and drum kit, I did use the LFE to enhance the kick drum and string bass only (prefiltered and at -20). This was in
addition to the full range 5.0 mix using these same elements. Without the LFE the mix sounded fine. With LFE added the "extra weight" worked out for the DVD-A version (24/48k) on systems
with no bass management (I prefer). The DD 5.1 version (pictures and music) was another matter. Bass managing the 5 full range channels made necessary a re-mix and removing the LFE channel
which conflicted with the summing/sub information. Possibly with more time/work the DD LFE could have remained but the project did not warrant the effort. Also a hardware DD encoder vs my software encoder would be better. The use of a prefiltered mic for LFE in a "coincident" 5.1 mic setup has merit (spaced mics maybe not) but the final delivery method will probably dictate its use.
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#1003131 - 08/30/05 11:18 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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doug osborne
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Originally posted by CraigHoward:
...using the LFE for live orchestra, chamber,chorale recordings can be a "messy" situation because of phase issues. Also, the very low frequency information that could add "weight" or fullness to the sound is often masked by room noise, i.e., HVAC or even heat rising/air movements (with HVAC off) across mic diaphrams...
Originally posted by CraigHoward:
... Bass managing the 5 full range channels made necessary a re-mix and removing the LFE channel
which conflicted with the summing/sub information. ...
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#1003132 - 08/30/05 11:23 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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Neil Wilkes
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The phase issues with a bass managed system are always going to be a problem.
I'm also very sorry to have to say this, but the comment "Possibly with more time/work the DD LFE could have remained but the project did not warrant the effort." absolutely shocking!
Am I actually understanding you correctly here????
Obviously you were doing the job as a favour, right? As if it was a paid job, then "not worth the effort" is a really, really poor thing to say.
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#1003133 - 08/31/05 10:51 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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blas
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AM, I always know you'd throw your hand up for a positive vote!!!
Doug, You say sounds like a convincing argument to NOT attempt to capture and I rebut with since it IS a multitrack recording WHY NOT make the effort? In the event it takes away from the production, then of course remove it. We sometimes can't be afraid to try new and exciting methods. If I was tracking live to broadcast or two track, then yes,yes, I wouldn't throw a wrench into the system. But to be able to bring those tracks back in the control room and see what it does can't hurt and in fact will probably help teach in the process. And needless to say, the monitors here are full range...wouldn't think of doing it any other way!
Craig, I am grateful for your input. It is the exchange of our ideas, viewpoints and in the field experiences that push this forum forward.
Neil, sometime I'll pull a couple pieces together and send 'em to ya'!
Joe
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#1003134 - 08/31/05 11:22 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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doug osborne
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As you notice, noone has gone anywhere near your throat!
I did try this, as far back as '98, and never found a use for the LFE capture (for both Big Band and Orchestral recording). Stereo, surround, or spot mics had captured the LF content in each case, and delivery through the five full range channels provided appropriate frequency and dynamic range.
I can't deny that there may be times when the main mics can't capture LF appropriately - for example, some of the surround mics out there have better HF capability than LF, and have to be positioned to capture the directional information for the HF.
I don't have that material now, but I would like to do a few mixes for comparison, one using just the main mics with no LFE delivery, one with the main mics and some sort of summed LFE delivery, one with main mics and LFE-capture delivered via just the main channels, one with main mics and LFE-capture delivered via LFE...
I do know, from a wide range of 5.1 monitor speaker setups in a wide variety of rooms, that music mixes using some sort of summed bass delivered via the LFE sound less consistent from room to room than mixes delivered without LFE content. I wish some of the surround music mixing engineers out there would get this (not directed at you).
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#1003135 - 08/31/05 12:31 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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CraigHoward_dup1
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A little late in getting back,
Doug comments,
(Sounds like a convincing argument against trying to capture sounds for an LFE channel, or am I wrong?)
Not at all. Only that room/noise issues may preclude the LFE capture's use or choosing to capture to begin with.
(It sounds like a convincing argument for monitoring on a full range monitor system (either bass-managed or full-range), and not mixing anything to the LFE, or am I wrong?)
I agree a full range monitor system is a must. I prefer not using the LFE in the types of music discussed but clients can have other ideas. I do not mind experimenting.
Neil comments,
(I'm also very sorry to have to say this, but the comment "Possibly with more time/work the DD LFE could have remained but the project did not warrant the effort." absolutely shocking!)
and
(Am I actually understanding you correctly here????
Obviously you were doing the job as a favour, right? As if it was a paid job, then "not worth the effort" is a really, really poor thing to say.)
I was hired (example sited) to record archival audio CD-Rs for a local non-professional choral group (Member's keepsake). Members were very happy with their CD-Rs recorded in 2003. The surround sound discs/DVD-A 5.1 and DVD-V with DD5.0 was for the conductor (a friend), myself and a few others (this work was not paid). The conductor and myself agreed that the non-professional, non-commercial and not for broadcast nature of this recording DID NOT warrant our respective additional time. He and I were pleased with the 5.1 DVD-A and 5.0 DD DVD-V in light of the recording's purpose, our time available and the level of musical performance/hall.
I used this example regarding the LFE problems I encountered for those who may do this type of recording in their local region. Not the best halls/rooms with non-pro groups with time and budget limitations.
BTW I did my first paid recording of non-professional choral music on an Ampex AG440 in 1973. They were a good group but I was "shocked" when they declined having me make additional backups of their master at no charge for my time, tape cost only. The conductor said it didn't warrant my time or their tape expense. I made an additional copy anyway.
Craig
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#1003136 - 08/31/05 02:59 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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blas
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Wow Doug, Interesting idea to set the 'low end' mic on a track but mix it back into the other monitors, not touching any LFE. I gotta try that too! The location jobs are a lot of hard work (setting up shop then hours later breaking back down), but when you know the orchestra is right on, your cutting some nice tracks and the hair on the back of the neck gets tingley....it's all worth it.
Joe
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#1003137 - 09/01/05 10:51 AM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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doug osborne
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Originally posted by blas:
Wow Doug, Interesting idea to set the 'low end' mic on a track but mix it back into the other monitors, not touching any LFE. I gotta try that too! ...
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#1003138 - 09/01/05 04:02 PM
Re: Roll with my thinking for a moment...
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blas
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Doug, Gotta say in the past 35 years of recording I never remember mixing the bass or kick to only one channel! Apples and oranges on that one. 
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