#1002993 - 07/05/05 07:39 PM
Good to see that some life....
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Angelo Clematide
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Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 1872
Loc: at home in Switzerland
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Good to see that some life got here in the surround forum, since i came here the first time quite a while ago...
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#1002994 - 07/11/05 11:38 PM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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AudioMaverick
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Registered: 05/19/01
Posts: 1790
Loc: Outskirts of Big Bear, CA,UNIT...
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Since I moved, in October, I haven't spent much time here. I am going to need to build a new mixing room at the new place. So, I'm basically side-lining to pick up new stuff and keep from falling too far behind.
Right now, I am spending more time in Phil's & Ethan's forums. But, that'll hopefully change when I get the room construction done... by snowfall, hopefully.
I am hoping the flow keeps growing here, too.
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1002995 - 07/12/05 06:55 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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blas
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Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
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AM, It's good to see you haven't turned completely into a mountain man and only come down outta those hills for supplies!
Yes, there are times this little forum gets lonely. But we need to look at this like the crazy neighbor that builds a spaceship in his backyard....it's only a matter of time before the others catch on!
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#1002996 - 07/13/05 02:30 PM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 514
Loc: London, UK
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Surround is a funny old thing.
Time was I think most of us spent far more time talking about it and attempting, often unsuccessfully, to persuade clients to go for it rather than actually doing any.
But it seems to be on the up at the moment.
What we need now is to try and organise some sort of petition or mass campaign to the labels for more High Resolution as opposed to the dreadful mess that is often Dolby Digital. After all, the mixes are done at 24/96 or 24/48, why not release at this resolution?
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#1002997 - 07/14/05 09:33 PM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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AudioMaverick
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Registered: 05/19/01
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Sorry it took so long to reply… I had my main file server MoBo dump. I went down the mountain for a new CPU/MoBo/RAM replacement!  Back up and running. 
Yes, Neil, I have been in that quandary for a while. I recently tested a friend’s use of the term “dynamics”, when I reversed an over-compression of a track off a recently purchased CD. I increased the dynamic range from -0.1dB to almost -14dB average. Talk about horrified. This guy has been so programmed to the hard, thumping compression of retro/dance music that he couldn’t believe I had actually increased the dynamic range of the recording. Granted, some music is intended to be like that for the rave/nightclub/dance scene. But, it was an eye-opener for the both of us. The music style may not be conducive to the medium's potntial.
I think this is going to be the unfortunate obstacle to getting the industry to give the most dynamic audio experience the music and medium can deliver. That is the end user’s perception. We just have to each do our part. And, I’ll be happy to help figure out how to get the consensus to the labels for consideration. Reserve my raised hand for the committee, when the volunteers are needed!
Doing my part, I have introduced ProLogic-II surround for some of the audio CDs I’ve done. Sometimes, it was advantageous for the material. Even though PL2 was not intended for music, originally, the SurCode module has a setting to help optimize the rear channels. It isn’t perfect. But, at least the user can play that CD in any player. Where it really helps is for doing a mono-to-3.1 conversion. Since DTS-CD has dropped to $99, I am really tempted to go to that for CD. Then, it will be DVD time… as soon as I can get the *room* built and do some business!
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1002998 - 07/15/05 09:55 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 514
Loc: London, UK
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AM.
Consider yourself on the list of potential "draftees" for the group. I'm also looking into rounding up some of the guys at QQ forums as well. We even have a couple of journos on that one who are well into the DVD-A side.
DPL II looks like it could be fun in doing some stuff - I am hanging on for the soon to be released SurCode VST plugin encoder/decoder rather than yet another standalone encoder - I have got so used to doing the hated Dolby Digital and the superior DTS encodes right off the Nuendo timeline without having to export mixdown - in real time - then feed the encoder. Working off the timeline really helps.
ProLogic CD's are a good thing as they will play in stereo on a non surround/non DPL II system being a matrix format. DTS-CD will not. They must go through a DTS decoder or you get white noise.
But, for $99, this encoder is a real bargain. SurCode and Minnetonka audio have done more than anyone else in the game towards making High Res a genuine "thing of the ordinary studio" by making available proper tools at a fraction of the Sonic Solutions price points.
Okay, the flagship DVD-A application, Chrome, still has big holes in it where there should be better control, but this will be there in the next revision. Full cell control, SPRM/GPRM control, PSD import - it will finally realise the potential and give DVD-A creator ($15,000!!!) a run for it's money.
Surround is here to stay, and now that discWelder Bronze has a mac version, plus is bundled with Adobe's Audition & Sequoia, wavelab has DVD-A along with samplitude, the renaissance is on it's way as more & more of the smaller & hobby creators can finally experience how sublime High Res can be.
And this cannot be a bad thing.
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#1002999 - 07/15/05 10:52 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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doug osborne
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 2638
Loc: Culver City, CA, US
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Yes, PLII does surprisingly well with much music - like original PL, it's a miracle that it works at all, and a blessing that it works as well as it does. Do you find that it works better to start with a specific hi-rez 5.1 mix for the PLII encoding?
The democratization of surround tools will be a major influence on the future of surround. DW Bronze came with Sonar as well. I can imagine that affordable tools will encourage some kid starting to record and compose now to come up with some vastly different music, inspired by technology.
---------------------------------------------
I am somewhere toward the end of talking to hundreds of the top studios in the US (about a non-surround product of ours).
I have asked each about surround music (and most are strictly music facilities or musician-owned studios), and only about five percent (at best) said that they are doing any surround work, or have plans to add this in the near future. A slightly higher percentage are working in DSD or plan to, and nearly all are recording at higher than 16/44.1 (Pro Tools is nearly universal, even for those studios who talk the analog talk), so high-resolution does seem to be important to the industry, in spite of the common belief that the consumer will ultimately hear the music on iPod ear buds.
I personally blame Sony and the rest of the music industry for not marketing SA-CD and DVD-A properly, but that's just me.
The picture-delivering brothers of the music industry may very well screw up the next disc-based delivery system, with their squabbling about Blu Ray and HD-DVD. There has been no formal announcement of a music-oriented Blu Ray or HD-DVD format, but they certainly are capable of delivering high-resolution multichannel audio.
I believe that we should continue to acquire and affix music in the highest resolution possible, in whatever multichannel format that is appropriate for the music (some music, for any era, might be more appropriately delivered in mono, for example, and some in 8.0). We should also take it on ourselves to master in all current delivery formats, to deliver the best LPCM, MP3, 5.1 hi-rez, 5.1 DD or DTS, etc., etc., etc. Who's going to pay for this? Ultimately, it should be the artist or record company, since even if they don't plan to release their music in 5.1 right now, they probably eventually will, and I think we all agree that it's better to do the 5.1 mix at the same time as the 2.0 mix for consistency. Since they probably won't universally pay for this up-front, maybe we should start a movement to find a way to profit from future multichannel or hi-rez releases. More work for us now but potential profit down the line.
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#1003000 - 07/16/05 08:32 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 514
Loc: London, UK
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Some good thoughts there Doug, and I agree with you totally.
Even if a client is only asking for a DD mix, I generally tend to also encode a DTS one and a High Rez one at the same time. After all, it can all go into the backup discs, and if they later on decide that perhaps a higher quality release would be better, then all I have to do is burn a disc & ship it.
As for Blu Ray & HD-DVD, I think Blu Ray is doomed right from the word go due to the mad insistence on the 0.1mm technology. Man those discs will be fragile.
HD-DVD already has spec included for DD Lossless (the file formerly known as MLP) and DTS, DTS 24/96 & DTS-HD (lossless). So there is room for High Rez already.
Trouble with those formats is I believe all the space will be taken up with stupid over complicated, overly clever menus. That seems to be the main thing I hear about on forums - menu, menu, menu and pi55ing & moaning about how you cannot have million colour overlays. As if it matters! The menu is supposed to facilitate simple navigation around the content, not to be the content itself. But I'm ranting again, methinks.
Currently, for music, we already have DVD-A/V, which does everything we need it to, on all DVD players. Why fix it if it ain't broken?
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#1003001 - 07/16/05 08:35 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 514
Loc: London, UK
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PS.
I also blame Sony for DVD-A/SACD not really happening.
If Sony had stuck with DVD-A at 24/96, which works and works well without the ghastly ultrasonic noise caused by the shaping, and invented SACD because they wanted to own the whole pie instead of a slice of it, Joe Sixpack would not have gotten confused and avoided the whole thing.
The exact same thing happened in the Quad era - too many competing incomopatible systems (4 for vinyl alone) which meant 4 separate playback systems. Now we have the same thing all over again:
DVD-A
SACD
DTS
Dolby Digital
and the promise of yet more with MP3 (vomiting sounds) and Quicktime along with WMA.
And we wonder why the consumer gets confused?
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#1003003 - 07/18/05 07:25 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 514
Loc: London, UK
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Doug.
This is purely because of incredibly poor marketing, lack of titles available (Sony insist on releasing in Dolby Digital) and ignorance on the part of the consumer due to too many formats.
The DVD-A format itself is far from broken, and now that basic DVD-A authoring is becoming the norm with packages such as WaveLab, Samplitude, Audition, Magix, Sqeuoia etc then we will see a renaissance in this format - especially if Sony (who else) would stop splitting the market.
DualDisc can easily be DVD-A/V on the DVD layer, yet still Sony are putting out DVD-V only, some of it with mere 16/48 LPCM instead of any multichannel or High Res.
I cannot and will not believe that the quality of DVD-A is not wanted.
I hear so many people spouting about BluRay, yet these same people think MP3 is acceptable for Audio.
It is high time that Audio was not considered as the "poor man" of production.
All it needs is awareness and a decent marketing campaign.
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#1003004 - 07/18/05 08:18 PM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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AudioMaverick
Platinum Member
Registered: 05/19/01
Posts: 1790
Loc: Outskirts of Big Bear, CA,UNIT...
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Great points, guys. I am finding DTS is pretty much off the radar with clients & friends. And, anything DVD shuts down most clients who want to distribute CD swag at their gigs, and to get noticed on the local scene.
I make sure I record in 24.8 (float), even though it will end up on CD. If a client comes back and decides to go DVD, I have it to deliver.
The PL-II issues I have run into have to do with the track frequency & gain relationship against phase shift of the rear two channels. Since they are equally opposed, a frequency on a dynamic rise on one channel might interfere with a sympathetic frequency in the other. Just as Dolby warns, the rear steering can literally fold for the instant. the result sounds like the rear channels drop off and come back. But, the *music* setting in the SurCode encoder really cuts that down. After doing the tracks in Cool Edit (Audition), I HAVE to tweak the rear and center channels in SurCode to get the rear tracks to sound like they should. But, it's only a few minutes. And, the final product sounds good.
One thing that I found interesting about PL-II is that it doesn't lose definition over FM or MP3 (I know you r feelings over that!). So, with most home surround receivers defaulting to ProLogic-II, this is a fantastic way to introduce the average listerner to the format. If you remember, Dolby sent me a nice rasberry email from their attorney when I applied for permission to use it on audio CDs. they claimed it was only licensed for gaming and movie sound tracks. And, no response to the list of PL-II CDs I own that I sent to them. It is like the industry is not interested in pushing it... Oh, we've be ove r that.
It is almost dinner time here at 7,000 feet (damn, it hit 97 degrees at Big Bear!). I appolgize for the typos I'm not going to check. But, I'll leave with three MP3/PL-II links, I did this a little over a year ago. I did them in either 192k or 256k, for a decent playback...
Moonlawn - "Iowa Cornfield" (8MB) {Modern Hoe-Down}
Possibly7 - “The Way That It Feels” (10MB) {Blues-Rock with a Santana feel}
Tom Delgado - "Conquest Of The Man" (13MB) {Folk Rock with a Classical twist}
The Delgado piece was my very first multi-track recording (2000). I wish I had known the importance of putting sound walls around the vocalist! And, an AKG 2000B is not the right microphone for a 350 year old upright bass, either. Hope you can enjoy the PL-II...
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1003005 - 07/26/05 05:45 AM
Re: Good to see that some life....
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Angelo Clematide
Platinum Member
Registered: 06/30/04
Posts: 1872
Loc: at home in Switzerland
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just say hello !
very busy at the moment
Angelo
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