#1002960 - 06/25/05 08:41 PM
Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Registered: 06/25/05
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Hi List,
I am in the process of creating a surround sound mixing environment and could use any help that I could get. The first thing I need to do is make sure I am using the right equipment and to see what else I would need to get. Following is what I am using:
Mac G5 2.3 Ghz
Metric Halo MIO 2882+DSP AD Convertor Box
2 Mackie HR824 Monitors
1 Mackie H626 (just ordered, being shipped)
Digital Performer 4 Software
(Still need to get 2 monitors, LS and RS. I was thinking of Mackie 624s. Also need to get a sub)
I need to know if I will be able to do accurate 5.1 mixing with this setup, or if I am missing key equipment.
Any feedback would be really appreciated.
Thanks,
Ross
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#1002961 - 06/26/05 09:33 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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blas
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Registered: 03/06/01
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Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
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Can't stress enough how important having matched monitors all the way around! Otherwise, you have a better chance of tricking yourself about the mix. Save money, return the one you ordered and wait to buy the SAME as your front pair (trust me, it will be worth it in the end). Secondly, the room needs to be tricked out (the other way) so the final product (mix down) will translate well elsewhere.
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#1002962 - 06/26/05 03:49 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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This is the reccomended speaker configuration from Mackie for mixing in Surround. Also, the room is a professional studio (not a home deal) The room was designed by a top notch acoustician. I really need to know what other equipment I might need that I might be overlooking.
Thanks,
Ross
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#1002963 - 06/27/05 07:31 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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Neil Wilkes
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Registered: 07/06/02
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Loc: London, UK
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Sorry, I do not care What mackie are telling you.
Blas is right. Mackie are, as usual, wrong.
You must use the same make & model of monitors or your mixes will simply be inaccurate.
Music Surround is mixed as 5 way full range, and it is very important that all monitors and amplifiers are the same make & model.
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#1002964 - 06/27/05 10:30 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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doug osborne
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Registered: 08/15/00
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Loc: Culver City, CA, US
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Yes, five 824s properly integrated with an appropriate subwoofer is the right way to go.
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#1002965 - 06/28/05 09:26 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Actually,
I just got some info. from very high end pros. (mixers that work with Chesky records and the likes) and they say that the system is fine.
What nobody seems to be answering and maybe nobody here knows, is what other equipment I need?
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#1002967 - 07/04/05 06:01 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Looks like I am biting the bullet. This seems to be the consensus so I will be purchasing 3 more Mackie HR824s as soon as I sell the HR626.
Unless anyone thinks there is a good reason to go with different monitors other then the Mackie HR824s.
I want to be able to do both music and film mixing in surround and as for the final delivery format....It will really depend on the project. Most of what I do will most likely be put on CD/DVD.
I still need an answer to my original question which is what other equipment, other then monitors, do I need to do surround Mixing
To recap I have:
MIO 2882 AD/DA Convertor
MAC G5
Digital Performer Software
Please let me know.
Thanks.
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#1002968 - 07/05/05 04:44 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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AudioMaverick
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Registered: 05/19/01
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OK, RAW... Your equipment list is minus the subwoofer. The HR824 will do well for you. Having the same speaker for all around playback will allow for the best balance. Depending on your room the HR120 subwoofer should be enough for low end performance.
You will need a software component for the final product. Check out http://www.SurCode.com & http://www.DiscWelder.com. they are the same company (Minnetonka). But, different applications for different purposes.
Once you get your setup complete, the difficult part will be to get the acoustics of the room stable. The equipment is the easy part! Check out Ethan Winer's Acoustic Forum for some great resources to controlling your listening/mixing environmnet.
Good luck on your endeavors...
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1002969 - 07/06/05 01:59 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Thanks for the advice guys. I will definitely work on the acoustics of the room. 2 quick questions:
1. I need a 5.1 receiver with direct outputs to drive active
speakers. I can't seem to find this anywhere and was wondering if anyone on the list could help out with models or places where I could look. (I will be inputing with coaxial if that helps at all.)
2. What is the general concensus of the Mackie HR824 speakers for surround sound mixing. (since I will be selling the 626 I just ordered I am wondering if I should upgrade the whole setup, or if the HR824s are a top model.)
Thanks,
Ross
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#1002970 - 07/06/05 11:44 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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doug osborne
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Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 2638
Loc: Culver City, CA, US
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Ross,
Surround Sound Up and Running, by Tomlinson Holman is a great book that you probably should get.
Surround Associates is Bobby Owsinski's website, and a great surround resource.
AudioMaverick points out that you omitted the subwoofer, but you mentioned it earlier and I assumed that you haven't forgotten about it. Mackie doesn't make a Bass Manager, but one will be necessary to properly integrate the subwoofer with the main speaker to make them full-range. Make sure you get enough subwoofer for your room - too little headroom in this area can cause monitoring problems.
You will need some way to adjust your monitor level - it looks like you are addressing this with your question about receivers. Many companies make surround monitor controllers designed for professional work, and a consumer receiver can do this also (I happen to use a Sherwood - there are many models out there with line-level inputs and outputs, but I had to go to a store and turn them all around until I found the cheapest receiver that had this feature).
You mention that you will be sending a digital signal from your computer interface to your receiver/monitor controller via coax. Do you know that there is no practical way to encode surround audio live and send it via SPDIF? You will, as AudioMaverick said, have to encode your multichannel surround mixes to AC-3 or DTS (not a real-time process), send them through the digital connection, and then decode them in the receiver to be sent to the speakers. Minnetonka is the company of choice for these encoders, although there are some alternatives.
Dolby does have a process called Dolby Digital Live that is in its infancy; I don't think any cards are available yet, it is targeted at gaming for consumers, but it will encode multichannel Dolby Digital in real-time. I'm guessing that you will probably send six analog channels from your Metric Halo interface to the receiver/monitor controller, not digital, but I could be wrong.
You can certainly do good work on five Mackie 626s, 824s, ATCs, Genelecs, Adams, Blue Skys, JBLs, or on any one of dozens of speaker systems (with a properly integrated subwoofer). Like everything in life, there is always something better.
Don't forget to budget for a multi-format disc player and a bunch of DVD-A and SA-CD multichannel music discs. There are a wide variety of approaches to surround mixing and you need to experience as many of them as possible to help you make mixing decisions appropriate for you.
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#1002971 - 07/06/05 02:25 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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AudioMaverick
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I went with passive speakers and a Panasonic *SA-HE70K* surround reciever (replaced by the *SA-HE75K* . It has Coax and Optical ins, as well as 6-channel analog inputs. But, it doesn't have line outs to match the speaker outs. Doing mixes, I am using the analog ins. The digital in doesn't do anything until I fire up the encoder. Then, I switch the unit over with a single switch and compare the surround composite to the discrete.
The sound card (Aureon Sky 7.1) I use has both analog outs and optical in & out. It is a little dated by today's cards. But, it does the job.
Doug, thanks for mentioning the Sherwood. I'll keep an eye out next time I cruise the audio shops. I never thought to check for that feature on lower end consumer recievers! And, I totally missed the subwoofer. Is that the H626? I misread it, and thought it was the HR626.
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1002972 - 07/06/05 03:48 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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goalie81
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Registered: 07/06/05
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Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Hi Ross-
Although you've received excellent advice already, I thought I'd chime in too. I too use Digital Performer 4.52 on a G5 Mac. I just began playing with 5.1 mixing, mostly because although DP lets me do a multi-channel mix, I couldn't burn it to disc. I purchased discWelder bronze from Minnetonka Software to at least create DVD Audio discs. They sound great, but not enough people I know have DVD Audio playback capability so I can't really share my mixes with my friends or whatever. discWelder does NOT do DTS or DD, just DVD Audio.
For about $50 (special price for DP owners- see motu.com I think) I've found discWelder to be a bargain. It works as advertised, and so far no coasters in the dozen or so DVD-R's I've burned. My only minor complaint is that it doesn't "feel" like a Mac app from the interface, but who cares- it works, which is the most important thing. The instructions are so simple you won't even have to read them if you're already familiar with Toast or whatever. When I bought it, I was told an update was required, but after downloading it turned out to be a PC version.
I wrote them and I was told I had the latest Mac version.
Happy mixing!
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#1002973 - 07/07/05 12:24 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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AudioMaverick
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Gaolie81 -- Welcome to the forums! And, thanks for the input. you seem very aligned to what "RAW" is doing, and your input will help, a lot. Some of your comments got me thinking...
- Since I am a PC person, I can't relate to the MAC-look-feel issue. I wouldn't have thought of that.
- There is a MAC version of DiscWelder? How about SurCode? I went back and revisited the DiscWelder & SurCode sites, because I realized they read as PC-Only applications. Even the *Bronze* application, which is down to $99.00 for those not priveledged with the deals. The CD-DTS is marked down to $99, as well. But, everything seems to be PC oriented. I don't want to be recommending this to a G4/G5 user to find they can't use it! Did I miss the MAC link?
- I also considered the compatibility issue with 5.1. So, I chose to go with the matrixed ProLogic-II for CD encoder. It isn't as defined. But, the discs play everywhere in mono, 2-channel & multi-channel. It is a little more work to align the rear tracks to sit in the mix.
Enjoy the forums!
_________________________
"It's all about the... um-m-m, uh-h-h..."
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#1002974 - 07/08/05 06:16 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I am going to try to digest all this info. while building the setup and hopefully will be able to get rolling prety soon.
I am not too hip on the whole bass management deal. I remember Mike Sokol brought this up a lot whenever I asked him questions and it looks like Doug is mentioning it again. So this is a really important piece of gear? Still not sure why, sounds like some sort of decked out volume control, but I really have no idea...I'm going to have to research this. Also, I was planning on adjusting monitor level through my app (Digital Performer) Is this a bad idea? if so, why?
As far as the question about burning 5.1 mixes to disc on a mac, and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't DVD Studio Pro's A.Pack application do this?
This seems like the way to go. I've played around with it and it is very basic to use, however I have yet to burn a 5.1 mix because....I still need to build the mixing environment first. I am thinking of throwing in a bunch of sfx mono files into the program in attempt to test the 5.1 burning abilities. I will report back on this if I do it.
Thanks again,
This feedback is invaluable.
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#1002975 - 07/08/05 06:23 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Ok just found the answer to the bass management question at the Surround Associates website. Very cool! This is a great resource, as is this forum.
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#1002976 - 07/08/05 06:23 AM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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RAW Productions
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Ok just found the answer to the bass management question at the Surround Associates website. Very cool! This looks like a great resource
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#1002977 - 07/08/05 02:22 PM
Re: Mixing System Please Help
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goalie81
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Registered: 07/06/05
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Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Hi again!
Yes, the A.Pack app that comes with DVD Studio Pro will do Dolby Digital just fine from what I understand. My pet peeve is that I'd be paying for just that as I have no interest in DVD video- $500 is alot for a small app.
I don't use the product, but here's a tip I stumbled upon that may help with encoding DD with A.Pack:
http://www.tfdvd.com/public/81.cfm
Adjusting monitor level with DP: I'm not sure how else to do it to make sure your mix is correct. I'd be curious if someone can help here too. Wouldn't it be a matter of setting the monitors to the same level with a noise generator and a SPL meter to be sure? Maybe I'm missing something...
By the by, a new DP update was just released, 4.6. Nothing for surround that I can tell though.
As for an app for the Mac, I downloaded something called ffmpegX which looks like a GUI front-end for the ffmpeg command-line tools. I'm going to play with it tonight as it appears that it can encode 5.1. I'll follow up in the other thread I started about 5.1 encoding utilities for the Mac. If it works, the $15 shareware fee is quite a bit different from the $500 A.Pack cost!
Cheers!
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