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#1002420 - 10/11/04 07:26 PM I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
Anonymous Unregistered



so I figured it would probably be a good idea to post this here... my name is michael gaster and I have been working with rock group Perpetual Groove (www.pgroove.com;)this whole month we are doing all of our shows in 5.1 surround in venues ranging from 500 to 1100 cap.

many of my peers have been skeptical about how and why and all that crap that many enginners are full of but I will say, EVERY show thus far has been a mind blowing experience...

I am mixing the show on a Yamaha DM2000 using all Renkus Heinz speakers in different configurations...

the tour schedule is as follows and if anyone is in the area(s) give me 48hours notice and I will try to find a place on the guest list for you.

OCT 1 Variety Playhouse (Atlanta GA)

OCT 2 Exit/IN (Nashville TN)

OCT 8 Lincoln Theatre (Raleigh NC)

OCT 9 Ziggy's (Winston-Salem NC)

OCT15 Georgia Theatre (Athens GA)

OCT16 Visualite Theatre (Charlotte NC)

OCT22 Orange Peel (Ashville NC)

OCT23 Music Farm (Charleston SC)

OCT30 FreebirdCafe(Jacksonville FL)

OCT31 The Masquerade (Tampa, FL)

I would be interested to see what others have to say...

michael
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#1002421 - 10/11/04 10:06 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
blas
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Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 517
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA

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Good luck young dude! Efforts like these helps the cause (so look as the end product is killer).
Expound on the micing technics you have employed. In the end, will it be released in 5.1 or just folded down?
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#1002422 - 10/11/04 10:31 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
michael gaster
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Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Savannah GA

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what do you mean released in 5.1 or folded down?

as far as micing, I'm not really doing anything special, except for using a few extra channels here and there.... which I have 27 coming from the stage actually 25... then my returns and other channels put me at (if i recall correctly) 49 or 50 channels... I think this will be a regular thing with this group as the surround aspect really works well with the music.
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#1002423 - 10/12/04 02:19 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member


Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES

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Very interesting....I assume by your initial thread and response above that you are doing live sound in 5.1, not recording as asked about....

This would seem to be a new variation on the Quad sound systems used by at least a couple of bands at some point in the 70s (Pink Floyd and Genesis?), which seemed to work for them but were dropped eventually from their tours.

I worked with a guy doing live sound outdoors last year who was trying to do a surround quad kind of thing....Outdoors this did not work well at all because of the large differences in audience placement relative to the different speaker sources, as well as the lack of a natural ambient field to work with, and the huge delays implied by the long distances.

I noticed that all of your venues seem to be theaters or clubs, and assume that is making a difference for you....I also wonder about the relative level and content difference between the surrounds and mains, along with the placement of the surrounds. I'll bet you have to make big changes from room to room and that you have to devote the surrounds to special effects and ambience.

Let us know what you are running into with this, and how you are handling placement, content, distance and delay. Too cool....I'm a DM2000 user, as well, and am very curious about your experiences there.....I wish some of the gigs were a little closer.
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#1002424 - 10/12/04 03:04 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
Eric Day
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Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 65
Loc: Austin, TX

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Right on! Live 5.1 is so fun. I've been to a couple Herbie shows mixed in surround. The first "Future to Future Tour" was phenomenal. At the last show during the Surround 2004 Conference, they ran into the issue of too much sound coming from the stage off the monitors and musicians themselves. Be careful where you aim amps etc, and think about using in ear monitors if you can. I'm not a live engineer, but those would be my best guesses. The problem most people noticed at the last Herbie show was that none of the 5.1 mix being done could be heard due to all the excessive noise off the stage drowning the mix out. Every now and then you'd hear a brief sound erupt from a rear channel, everyone would look and wonder what was going on, then they'd focus back on the stage where all the sound was. That surround mix failed. No offense to those guys, they are legends, and their engineers some of the best there is, but audience perspective is what it is. I wonder if a center even needs to be used for live 5.1. The stage sound could be the center. Typically the sound off the stage is four times louder than a center channel anyway. I don't know. Something to think about.

What are you doing with your mixes for the 5.1 live? Placing instruments around the room, or just special effects, pans, etc. All the above ;-) Excellent. I think throwing a vocal in different channels to get a crowd reaction would turn heads. So many options.

Eric Day
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#1002425 - 10/12/04 07:25 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
michael gaster
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Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Savannah GA

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Quote:
Originally posted by mudsmith@earthlink.net:
Very interesting....I assume by your initial thread and response above that you are doing live sound in 5.1, not recording as asked about....
not recording, yes live with PA speakers all around!!!

Quote:

This would seem to be a new variation on the Quad sound systems used by at least a couple of bands at some point in the 70s (Pink Floyd and Genesis?), which seemed to work for them but were dropped eventually from their tours.
dropped probably cause it is a shitton of work!!!! but to be honest it looks like this might be a regular thing with this group as the success has been great... looking at a 2005 national tour... we'll see!

Quote:

I worked with a guy doing live sound outdoors last year who was trying to do a surround quad kind of thing....Outdoors this did not work well at all because of the large differences in audience placement relative to the different speaker sources, as well as the lack of a natural ambient field to work with, and the huge delays implied by the long distances.
you see that is odd. as I would love to take this out doors... I would get even more isolation and have more pronounced effects and be able to work the verbs and delays with great effect... but I guess this is where you get into systems engineering (which is where the real *engineering* comes in -as opposed to the mixing like some think) and setting up a properly designed system granted I am sure I can take this to great effect with a lesser system but I think I am working hard enough ;\) ...fortunately here, I am using Renkus Heinz PN102LA line array boxes that boast a 150degree horizontal coverage pattern... which in opposition to what many engineers would think in narrow rooms it still fantastic... I would love to have the challenge of taking this show outdoors and doing live Rock'n Roll 5.1 for 10,000 people

Quote:
I noticed that all of your venues seem to be theaters or clubs, and assume that is making a difference for you....I also wonder about the relative level and content difference between the surrounds and mains, along with the placement of the surrounds. I'll bet you have to make big changes from room to room and that you have to devote the surrounds to special effects and ambience.
yes the system set up is almost never the same but the way I designed the system made it scaleable from the largest room downward and even since I have configured it differently from my origional designs in some of the rooms with great success, as far as the changes in the mix very little only level in front to rear balanceas as a system whole but even still that is very minimal, like I said its a real scaleable system and due to cabinet design, it really up to placement of the rears and of me at FOH, which only one venue has given me problems but I have ran into problems with them in the past and knew going into there that they would be restive to doing something with a system other than their own (ego/power BS) fortunately this was the first stop on the tour (Variety Play house), and the show still rocked. they made me mix 5.1 from the back of the house in line with my rear speakers -my question is "why did they buy the show?" anyway thus far I turn on the DM2000 and there's my mix ready to go!

Quote:

Let us know what you are running into with this, and how you are handling placement, content, distance and delay. Too cool....I'm a DM2000 user, as well, and am very curious about your experiences there.....I wish some of the gigs were a little closer.
well we want to try to take this national starting this spring just need to make sure we have some tour support... fortunately the act has been playing every market for about 2 years now and has record distribution world wide so it is possible, and since the tour has been anounced there has been a demand for dates in other markets (other than here in the south east) so we'll see... as far as the DM2000 its a great piece of sound tool I have had it for about 3 weeks now (I think) and using working it like crazy... I'd like to try this show with the new Digico D1 which looks like it would be ideal for the application.
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#1002426 - 10/12/04 07:41 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
michael gaster
Member


Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Savannah GA

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Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Day:
Right on! Live 5.1 is so fun. I've been to a couple Herbie shows mixed in surround. The first "Future to Future Tour" was phenomenal. At the last show during the Surround 2004 Conference, they ran into the issue of too much sound coming from the stage off the monitors and musicians themselves. Be careful where you aim amps etc, and think about using in ear monitors if you can. I'm not a live engineer, but those would be my best guesses. The problem most people noticed at the last Herbie show was that none of the 5.1 mix being done could be heard due to all the excessive noise off the stage drowning the mix out. Every now and then you'd hear a brief sound erupt from a rear channel, everyone would look and wonder what was going on, then they'd focus back on the stage where all the sound was. That surround mix failed. No offense to those guys, they are legends, and their engineers some of the best there is, but audience perspective is what it is. I wonder if a center even needs to be used for live 5.1. The stage sound could be the center. Typically the sound off the stage is four times louder than a center channel anyway. I don't know. Something to think about.

What are you doing with your mixes for the 5.1 live? Placing instruments around the room, or just special effects, pans, etc. All the above ;-) Excellent. I think throwing a vocal in different channels to get a crowd reaction would turn heads. So many options.

Eric Day
I do use the center channel and its funny this has been a reoccuring question... I use it as I would the rears "for effect" by using different levels of divergence and such what engineers (mixers) need to understand is this isnt TV or the movies its music and with the 5.1 the Audience is still at a concert watching the band up on stage, it just sounds really really good, there are more aural sensations due to placement of not so much the instruments but where I place the audience *by placeing the instruments* ...you almost have to think/mix in a polarized fashion... and of course the panning effects have their element of fun... but the biggest thing is having a sense of being in a "musical space" that I create and manipulate... its sort of a "fantastical environment"

as far as stage volume... not a problem and these guys have a loud stage volume, but I have my ways around it ;\)
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#1002427 - 10/12/04 08:49 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
mudsmith@earthlink.net
Gold Member


Registered: 10/30/00
Posts: 750
Loc: Martinsburg,WV,UNITED STATES

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Way to go...I've been using the DM2k for a couple of years now...Mostly studio, but some live sound and live record/mix. I've also been using the 01V96 and 02R96, and have recently started using the Studio Manager software when I'm doing live stuff, which helps a whole lot on the lesser mixers and would also help some on the DM2k, though it is easier to get around on and has more complete metering than the others.

If you haven't started using it yet, you might give it a whirl with a laptop.....I/O patching, which is tedious on the console, is very fast in Studio Manager....If you have not gone Version 2 yet, this should be considered because of some sonic improvements and the inclusion of a user-definable layer that can include group master faders, which should be usable live.

Anyway, sounds exciting. Keep us posted. Tell me of any gigs above the northern North Carolina border, and I'll come by and give you a hard time....I need to be making money to go farther away than that from my West Virginia hideout.
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#1002428 - 10/13/04 06:05 AM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
Anonymous Unregistered



yep I am on V2 and using a Tablet PC with Studio Manager; the Tablet makes a WORLD of Difference, especially with the surround panning as I can open up the surround editor and use my stylis to control the position of the channel in the surround mix, which is FAR better than that silly joy stick on the control surface as the resolution is higher I can do more subtle movements and actualyl do specific patterns in the surround field, now not to say that I dont reach up and do minor placements with the joy stick when I am already working on the console surface but the SM window is much better... and yes for the patching much much better when I just point at the patch matrix with my pen (stylis) and its done.... the major things with Studio Manager is Effects editing, surround panning and metering, the rest of it (as far as use during operation (mixing a show) is just for neat things to look at...
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#1002429 - 10/13/04 02:31 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
doug osborne
MP Hall of Fame Member


Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 2638
Loc: Culver City, CA, US

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Bring this show to sunny Southern California!

Have you used the center channel to isolate lead vocals/instuments? I'm the last person to say that you should decide in advance where to steer something, but the dynamic range, clarity, and coverage-consistency improvements are a great argument here.

At the Celine Dion show in Vegas (I know, it's Celine, but the show has great 5.1 live sound, and she does have a great set of pipes), they put her vocals and occasional featured instruments in the center dry, with the vocal's effects assigned to L & R or 4.0.
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#1002430 - 10/19/04 05:06 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
michael gaster
Member


Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Savannah GA

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perhaps in the next year we will be ther in sunny so cal... this tour has been a great success... and it looks like we will take it nation wide
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#1002431 - 06/04/05 02:55 PM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
michael gaster
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Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Savannah GA

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so its been a while, since my last post, but this last weekend I had the chance to mix my show in 5.1 outdoors (had the rears on scaffold), once I get photos I will see about posting the setup... the primary listening area was approx 120’ deep x 50’ wide.

I have to say of all of the shows I have mixed in 5.1, this was the best, being out doors I didn’t have venue constraints with where the rears could go as well as no room interference, the isolation between speaker sets was far better than anything indoors.

this was a bit more of a challenge than our fall series of shows as we had a few more inputs and I was also doing a 5.1 record feed plus a stereo record feed this go around.

total count was 58 channels of which 50 were actively being mixed, outputting to 15 destinations; certainly a hand full for any engineer, but I will say it was probably my best sounding mix if not in the top 3 of my 15year career as an audio professional. I just cant wait to see how the 5.1 DVD(s) turn(s) out, the stereo mix CD’s (10 of them- 6 sets) are ok they have audience mics as part of the mix which I should of known to use omni’s as the use of rear speakers sending (with respects to certain sources) almost equal sound 180deg off axis would have dramatic tonal shift as a result of the cardioid pattern of the mic but I had my hands full and my primary function was mixing the live mix and production managing the event.

So after this last weekend it looks like (since the group I work with is on several major summer festivals) we are going to try to tour next summers festivals bringing in the 5.1 rig and having our own stage.

As far as anything sooner, we will be doing a 5.1 surround show in San Francisco on June 22nd and perhaps a fall (west coast) 5.1 tour

Its quite the mixing experience for the live engineer.

And a heck of a experience for the people in the audience.

Gaster
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#1002432 - 06/28/05 02:13 AM Re: I'm doing 5.1 live concerts
Mark Weiss
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Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 176
Loc: New Milford, CT USA

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I recently started making web versions of surround sound recordings, since my client is looking for a web version of his promo reel.
I have been authoring surround sound DVDs for a couple of years, but doing streaming web audio in surround is something I just attempted last week.

I did a recording of a live symphony orchestra in 5.1 surround. The destination format is DVD video.

The recording setup is an experimental combination of O.R.T.F. array, with an added center channel mic, plus two rear surround mics at 90 degrees to eachother. All this mounted on a custom U shaped mic bar that I constructed for this purpose.
The mics fed a MotU 896, driven by a Sony laptop computer and Sony Vegas multitrack recording software. Original was recorded at 24/96 sample rate.

Recordings made with this system, plus video. (Note these are Windows Media 9, 5.1-channel Surround Sound CODEC required)

http://www.tinyurl.com/dws47

http://www.tinyurl.com/9aoub

Have a listen/view and see what you think..
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