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"Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90?

Posted By: yogashi

"Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 03/15/03 01:22 AM

"Grand Piano 1" on the P250 is superior, without question to all the other grand piano sounds in the Yamaha P series and the S series, with the P120 Grand Piano being the closest second (same samples, cheaper playback engine).

The Rhodes sounds are more debatable.
I played the P120 and compared it's Rhodes to that of the P250. The beautiful sounding P250 Rhodes has that bright "ping" sound that comes in suddenly when you strike hard. It sounds more modern and less authentic than the P120's more traditional Rhodes sound. The P250 Rhodes is very musical, but I think I prefer the more authentic sounding Rhodes in the P120.
Posted By: guestuser@guestuser.com

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 03/15/03 07:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yogashi:
The Rhodes sounds are more debatable.
I played the P120 and compared it's Rhodes to that of the P250. The beautiful sounding P250 Rhodes has that bright "ping" sound that comes in suddenly when you strike hard. It sounds more modern and less authentic than the P120's more traditional Rhodes sound. The P250 Rhodes is very musical, but I think I prefer the more authentic sounding Rhodes in the P120.
The raw Rhodes samples on the P250 are very good, I just don't like the way it velocity-switches. I find the way that bright 'ping' comes in to be too sudden for my tastes. I call that a bad velocity switch.

The P120 has a subtler, less noticeable, more musical velo-switch. I too think the P120's Rhodes, overall, is more authentic. It's the closest thing I've found yet to playing a real Stage 73. Better in some ways, because of better action, good tuning, and light weight.

So, you think the P250's Rhodes sounds more modern?
Posted By: yogashi

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 03/15/03 08:50 AM

I meant the P250 has a more modern sounding Rhodes in that it sounds like a modified "Dyno-Rhodes."

Yamaha has not told me that, it's my observation from playing the entire P series and S series at length. The P250 Grand Piano 1 does indeed have the greatest clarity, and string resonance. The P120 does have the same samples but with less clarity (cheaper VLSI chips).
Posted By: guestuser@guestuser.com

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 03/15/03 06:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yogashi:
[QB]I meant the P250 has a more modern sounding Rhodes in that it sounds like a modified "Dyno-Rhodes."
Yes, I agree that it sounds more like a Dyno-Rhodes. I don't think of that as more modern, though, just different.
Posted By: yogashi

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 03/15/03 06:55 PM

P250
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/23/04 03:38 PM

I personally dont like the p250. I think its piano sound is quite harsh. This is my preference. I just didnt find the p250 very musical.

Regards,
p120dUdE
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/23/04 05:50 PM

Could you please specify why? Like Yogashi stated, the 120 has a cheaper and not as "good" playback engine as the 250. Having tried both, I must say that I really like both pianos and would not throw eihther one out the door, ;\) but if I had to choose, Iīd go for the 250 without hesitation. IMO, in digital applications, every single nuance we get to keep is important to the realism of the sound. If Yamaha were to make the P 250 sound engine available in, say the P 120 format (or maybe even a rack!) Iīd go for it right away. Then again, the keybed and the overall ergonomics of the board are a big part of the experience, and if I were to go for the way a digital piano responds combined with the sound and the overall musical feeling, the P 250 is definately my favorite "portable" digital piano, probably the best overall. I havenīt tried the GranTouch, though, and theyīre all "just" samples...

/J \:D nas
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/23/04 06:00 PM

Yes, I will tell you why. IMO that the p250's sound is harsh. It is not that natural.

With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/23/04 08:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:
Yes, I will tell you why. IMO that the p250's sound is harsh. It is not that natural.

With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE
I am still waiting to receive my P250. If I might ask, have you listened to all the keyboards in question through headphones ... and is your opinion based on that?

I mention that for at least one personal experience - I bought a CD ROM of Rhodes' samples and it sounded bad through my very nice home stereo speakers; after I set up my 'job' system, the samples sounded excellent; that was an ... ear opener for me.

So, are we comparing apples with apples - were all the samples in question heard through the same system?
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/23/04 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:
With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE
Well now, you still canīt - and probably never will - get every nuance of a grand piano in a digital piano, right??? Every single feature you mention above is compromised by the nature of the format, which is digital reproduction of an acoustic phenomenon with literally millions of variations. Iīm not claiming to be able to hear every nuance, but a digital piano is still nothing but a digital piano. Even the great sounding P250 has a bit left to an actual grand piano.

/J nas
Posted By: clusterchord

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 02:37 AM

i've spent a couple of hours with both P120 and P250, with a time gap in between, so take this with a grain of salt;

I wasnt taken that much with the sound and feel of P120, i mean it was great but not something i couldnt live without.

P250 i wanted one immediately. Clear sound and fidelity. Action and whole feel are the best i tried on a digital piano yet. For pop/rock/ballad whatever, it ROCKS. I woudn't say i'd prefer it over sample libs , for classical sound. Rhodes does sound Dyno. But i think its cristaline gentleness is great for some tracks, it inspired a few slow ambi themes out of me as soon as i started playing it. no balls, no chaotic liveliness compared to mark I, but still really nice. and very usable for a gig. I havent tried electro2 yet, so i cant judge on that..
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 09:53 AM

A P-250 with a Nord Electro rack would be nice!

/J nas
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Analogaddict:
Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:
With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE
Well now, you still canīt - and probably never will - get every nuance of a grand piano in a digital piano, right??? Every single feature you mention above is compromised by the nature of the format, which is digital reproduction of an acoustic phenomenon with literally millions of variations. Iīm not claiming to be able to hear every nuance, but a digital piano is still nothing but a digital piano. Even the great sounding P250 has a bit left to an actual grand piano.

/J nas
Rather than debate whether or not every nuance can be sampled or discerned, I would think the proof (or lack of) would be in the listening. If you listen to a recording of a 'piano' and you can't tell whether or not it is 'sampled' or 'real', the point is moot, correct?

I have recorded my own GranTouch 1 (on a mini disk) and listened to it later. I knew I was the performer and I knew what the piano was, but it sure sounded like the real thing to me. A double blind test (as always) would be the ultimate test. People do not like to have their faith tested ... and even when they are proved wrong, refuse to accept the truth. I think this would be a good idea for a Keyboard article. This would go right up there with the old Downbeat articles where, in the 'listener's test, the listener would state the race of the performer in question. Some people actually believed they could hear the difference between the races upon listening. (Some people still believe that!)

Keyboard Magazine - how 'bout a listener's test where some golden ears can have their faith tested (double blind, of course). The test has to be a playing test and not listening to one note played and sustained - real music played by a real person.
Posted By: Superbobus

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 12:09 PM

Of course the P120 doesn't catch all the piano nuances. After a few seconds, the whole thing gets into a loop. It is, however, a great combination of sound, price, key action, size and weight. I'm happy with mine. It's a great workhorse.
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Horne:
Quote:
Originally posted by Analogaddict:
Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:
With the p120, I get every single nuance of a grand piano, like sympathetic vibrations(string resonance), sustain resonance, soundboard resonance, and key off. I get every dynamic of a piano with the p120. It is warm and beatiful.

p120dUdE
Well now, you still canīt - and probably never will - get every nuance of a grand piano in a digital piano, right??? Every single feature you mention above is compromised by the nature of the format, which is digital reproduction of an acoustic phenomenon with literally millions of variations. Iīm not claiming to be able to hear every nuance, but a digital piano is still nothing but a digital piano. Even the great sounding P250 has a bit left to an actual grand piano.

/J nas
Rather than debate whether or not every nuance can be sampled or discerned, I would think the proof (or lack of) would be in the listening. If you listen to a recording of a 'piano' and you can't tell whether or not it is 'sampled' or 'real', the point is moot, correct?

I have recorded my own GranTouch 1 (on a mini disk) and listened to it later. I knew I was the performer and I knew what the piano was, but it sure sounded like the real thing to me. A double blind test (as always) would be the ultimate test. People do not like to have their faith tested ... and even when they are proved wrong, refuse to accept the truth. I think this would be a good idea for a Keyboard article. This would go right up there with the old Downbeat articles where, in the 'listener's test, the listener would state the race of the performer in question. Some people actually believed they could hear the difference between the races upon listening. (Some people still believe that!)

Keyboard Magazine - how 'bout a listener's test where some golden ears can have their faith tested (double blind, of course). The test has to be a playing test and not listening to one note played and sustained - real music played by a real person.
Of course! The way any instrument sounds in the context where itīs being used is what matters. Iīm sure I couldnīt tell for example a P250 and even less a GranTouch from a real grand piano in most situations. A good clonewheel will fool me, and probably most VA:s too. Still, Iīve heard recordings where Iīve been able to tell whether itīs a Roland or a Yamaha digital piano (about 50% chance there!) thatīs being played. And, of course, the more scaled down the production is, the bigger the need for realism from every single instrument. I wouldnīt want to do an acoustic sounding gospel/jazz/country recording with a digital piano, but for rock and pop I can settle for a good DP. I donīt do a lot of solo piano gigs, but if I did I would prefer something like the P250 because it responds in a way that works for my touch and my style of playing. All this is of course a matter of taste. A blind test sounds like a good idea!

/J nas
Posted By: guestuser@guestuser.com

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 07:55 PM

oops, wrong thread
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 08:49 PM

I have tested both p250 and p120 through heaphones. When I tried out the p250, I didnt like it at all. I thought it was harsh. When I tried the p120, it was warm and beatiful. I fell in love with its sound, action, and features.

This is all a matter of taste, people who say "If you buy this, you will be an idot, it is not the best, this is" then they are complete idiots. This is personal preference, and I dont like the p250 at all. It is crap to me.

Regards,
p120dUdE
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/24/04 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:

This is all a matter of taste, people who say "If you buy this, you will be an idot, it is not the best, this is" then they are complete idiots. This is personal preference, and I dont like the p250 at all. It is crap to me.

Regards,
p120dUdE
...and by making these contradictory statements, you are trying to tell us what???
Posted By: Keybass

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/25/04 12:38 AM

In my humble opinion the Yamaha p120 is a very poor digital piano. I own a PC2X w/ Classic Keys Expansion and it does the job nicely. If I purchased a Yamaha DigiPno it would be the P-250.
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/25/04 08:37 PM

I will post my opinions, and that will be it.

*I hate the Yamaha P250. I think its piano and action are crappy. To me it is a poor piece of gear.

*I also hate Kurweil, they are very poor too. I dont like their pianos or action.

This is all preference, so dont quote me.

p120dUdE
Posted By: Anomaly

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/26/04 02:03 AM

Well, may as well throw my 2 cents in the ring. I've been playing around with all the boards whenever I get a chance because I know that I will soon have to get some new equipment.

I am coming to the conclusion that choosing a digital piano is like choosing an acoustic piano. You have to keep trying them on until you get something you really connect with--that you keep coming back to because it breathes inspiration into you. I don't think it really even has that much to do with authentic sound as much as it has to do with right chemistry.

So far the most amazing digital I have played was a Kawai digital baby grand that i played at a fair. I absolutely could not suck on that thing. I had a hard time pulling myself away from it.

Some time later, I played one in a showroom and it did absolutely nothing for me. Was it just my frame of mind, the room ambience, or was it simply not as good of a piano? I honestly don't know.

I played a P120 at a music store while traveling that I was very impressed with, but when I came back through the area, I stopped and played another 120 in the same store that flat out blew.

Although I like the sound of an RD 700, I can't play one. I've tried a bunch and just don't connect.

As far as the P250 goes, I think that is where I am going to land. THe Kawai, for obvious reasons is not practical, the portable Kawais are okay, but just don't work that well for me. I have played a number of p250's and only found one which I was not duly impressed with.

My conclusion is that I'm not going to mail order anything. I am going to go out and fetch me the piano that most inspires me. I think it will be a P250, but not just any P250. I have concluded that most of the debate on this subject is due to the individuality of the particular piano played, more than on individual taste, although that obviously holds some validity.
Posted By: mate stubb

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/26/04 11:50 PM

Here's my ranking of all the Yamaha Rhodes sounds I've played and owned recently:

3. P-90 Rhodes - has abrupt velocity switches
2. P-120 Rhodes - musical, better velocity switches
1. S-90 Vintage '74 Rhodes - my fave Yamaha Rhodes so far, very well matched to the S-90's action.

Also, I'd rank a couple of the Nord Electro Rhodes sounds up there with the S-90's (but only when played with a weighted controller).
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 12:10 AM

Heres the order I believe the P series go's in, from Absolutely superb to Horrible.

*p120- Absolutely superb. Its the bomb. Acoustic Pianos and electric pianos are superb, fantastic, awesome! The features, action, and other sounds are the bomb, they are superb.

*p90- Good acoustic pianos and electrics, but still not like the p120. Action does not connect to the sound nicely, and the acoustic piano is dull. But still, pretty good.

*p60- OK acoustic pianos, electric pianos are bad. It has only one layer, no dynamic sampling, but still very nice for a begginer.

*p250- Horrible, not impressed with it. Acoustic and electric pianos didnt impress me, along with the action that was not great either. To me, it is a piece of junk.

Regards,
p120dUde
Posted By: skyy39

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 01:40 AM

Quote:
*p120- Absolutely superb. Its the bomb. Acoustic Pianos and electric pianos are superb, fantastic, awesome! The features, action, and other sounds are the bomb, they are superb.

*p90- Good acoustic pianos and electrics, but still not like the p120. Action does not connect to the sound nicely, and the acoustic piano is dull. But still, pretty good.

*p60- OK acoustic pianos, electric pianos are bad. It has only one layer, no dynamic sampling, but still very nice for a begginer.

*p250- Horrible, not impressed with it. Acoustic and electric pianos didnt impress me, along with the action that was not great either. To me, it is a piece of junk.

me thinks p120dude needs to get his hearing checked. maybe it is opposite day for him. bizarro digital piano world.
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 01:44 AM

Quote:
me thinks p120dude needs to get his hearing checked. maybe it is opposite day for him. bizarro digital piano world.
Me thinks you need to start accepting peoples preferences. :rolleyes:

All of what I posted is my opinion. I hate the p250. You have to accept that. It is my personal preferences.

Regards,
p120dUdE
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 11:26 AM

Yeah, but since you by now must be aware of the fact that your opinions on the way a piano sounds arenīt shared by others maybe you donīt need to vent them all the time... You donīt have to like the P250, but if almost everybody you encounter prefers the 250-top-of-the-line model over the 120-budget-mainly-intended-for-home-use model, maybe that could be a sign that you are somewhat alone...

Youīve stated numerous times that youīre not an experienced, nor an advanced player, by general standards. I would not call myself an advanced player, and I still do this full time for a living. Have you even considered the possibility that maybe you arenīt even really qualified to judge sound quality in this way? It takes a lot of experience to hear the subtle nuances of sounds, and how they interact. You claimed in another post that the P120 sounds just like a real piano, and then - in another post - you claimed that the P120 sounds better than a real piano. Here we have a fundamental difference in the way we percieve sounds, I would never say that a digital piano sounds better than an in tune, well adjusted acoustic piano.

What Iīm trying to say is that you sound like a color blind person trying to convince others that green is blue, and since itīs your opinion it is so.

We are very well aware of your opinions on the p series pianos - which Iīm a huge fan of myself, I play the 120, 200 and 250 on a regular basis. Since you will not be able to convince us that the P120 is better than a concert grand piano (well, itīs easier on the back, Iīll give you that! :rolleyes: ), and we will obviously not be able to convince you that people with significantly more experience donīt agree with your conclusions - i.e. we think that you are wrong - whaddaya say, letīs drop it! If you stop trying convince us that weīre wrong AND if you stop giving us your opinion (which we already know), maybe we can move on. This horse is dead!
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 12:47 PM

I think that p120dUdE is in denial. This is a normal step in the grieving process. He has yet to come to terms with the P250 and is still holding on to the memory of the P120. He can not let go ... we just have to give him some time. This is all part of a larger process.

But seriously, when my P250 arrives (pretty soon), I will write my opinions of the various sounds.
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 01:13 PM

This just in ... I called the store and my P250 should be in Tuesday. The owner will call me Tuesday and we will set up an appointment.
Posted By: guestuser@guestuser.com

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 04:44 PM

I was in a music store yesterday, so I thought I'd A/B a P250 and a P120 (through the same set of headphones, and with all effects turned off), to see if I still had the same impressions as the last time I did it.

I came away thinking that yes, the P250 piano sound is good, has good clarity, and a nice keybed, etc. I could see how people might like it better than the P120, but I didn't think it was a whole lot better. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say that if the P250's piano sound is a 9, then P120's is an 8. Or, at the worst, a 7.

Re the topic of this thread, I found that my impression of the Rhodes sounds remains the same: while the P250's raw Rhodes samples may be a bit better than P120's, the P120 has a much better velocity-switch, and therefore, it is more enjoyable to play. So overall, I give P120 Rhodes a 9, and P250 Rhodes a 6 or 7. I can't remember the Rhodes from S90, but I know that the Motif ES has some good Rhodes sounds, and with good velocity-switch programming.

For weight and size, I like P120. I can lift 42 lbs with one arm. At 71 lbs, I would find the P250 difficult to haul around to gigs.

I can see why people like the P250. But since the P120's piano sound is almost as good, its Rhodes sound is better, and it's more portable, I consider it more suitable as my gigging piano, and I would still make the same choice. It's not a money issue for me, although, naturally, I'm not complaining that P120 costs less.

P120dude, I share your enjoyment of the P120, and I have no problem with you preferring the P120 piano sound over P250's, whether I agree or not. But you're probably damaging your case by over-stating it. It's not the first time we've seen that around here!
Posted By: Jazz+

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 06:27 PM

I see.
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 06:46 PM

IMO the 250 really shines compared to the 120 at gigs, when interacting with vocals or other instruments. The 120 can sound a bit thin (or sometimes the opposite!) in a context, while the 250 blends better. Why? I dunno... maybe itīs a hardware issue since both samples came from the same session! When playing for a longer time, the 250 piano didnīt reveal its weaknesses quite as quickly as the 120, or maybe working the eq prolongs the good side of the experience. Itīs a bit like the Electro in that aspect, it doesnīt really shine until you take it to a gig.
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 08:39 PM

I am not in denial, i am not stupid, and I HATE THE P250!!! Why do you have such a hard time accepting my opinion?!?

*I dont like the piano sound or action of the p250, I think they are harsh. This is my opinion. I dont care if im alone or not. Annalogaddict, I dont care if everyone loves the p250, but i dont, and thats all that matters to me. I dont care what those people say, and I hate your responses, because they are full of it.

If you have such a hard time accepting my opinions, then you guys are truly stupid. You make fun of me, you mock me, and worst of all, give me stupid replies. Grow up! People who cant accept my opinions are dumbos!!!

If the p120 wasnt out yet, I would reather play the p90 than the p250. This is preferecne. You may call it weird, stupid, etc or whatever you want. But guess what.....

I dont care.

Regards,
p120dUdE
Posted By: p120dUdE

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 08:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Horne:
I think that p120dUdE is in denial. This is a normal step in the grieving process. He has yet to come to terms with the P250 and is still holding on to the memory of the P120. He can not let go ... we just have to give him some time. This is all part of a larger process.

But seriously, when my P250 arrives (pretty soon), I will write my opinions of the various sounds.
Davehorne, i am not in denial. I just hate the p250. My opinion. It seems you have a big problem with accepting oppinions too.

Regards,
p120dUde
Posted By: MurMan

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/28/04 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:
Davehorne, i am not in denial. I just hate the p250. My opinion. It seems you have a big problem with accepting oppinions too.

Regards,
p120dUde
Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, we have just witnessed what the psych-types call "transference".
Posted By: eric

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/29/04 12:21 AM

Quote:
If you have such a hard time accepting my opinions, then you guys are truly stupid. You make fun of me, you mock me, and worst of all, give me stupid replies. Grow up! People who cant accept my opinions are dumbos!!!
Looks like the pot calling the kettle black here. Everyone is entitled to opinions, yourself and others included. Heed your own advice. No one called you stupid or a "dumbo." I think the keyboard world has grown weary of this repetitious and tiresome banter. I can accept your opinion and agree to disagree. No big deal. It is just a digital piano. I would still like to hear your MP3s.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/29/04 11:13 AM

The problem I have is that a lot of people buy stuff based on recommendations made on this and other forums - myself included; I bought an Evolver and am very happy with it. One basic thing when commenting on gear is to have hard facts, you canīt just say "the P120 sounds better than the 250 and has no problems, itīs the bomb", and then when getting replies about a supposed legato phrasing problem, resort to name calling. The P120 is a great instrument, and Iīd recommend it to anybody that needs that kind of DP, but you cannot trash stuff just because you donīt like it, unless you have some new info the rest of us are lacking. Of course you can state that the P120 is better than the 250, but then I expext you to back it up with something a little more substantial than name calling and repeating your latest (and ONLY!) statements.

Since youīve stated youīre also not an experienced musician I feel that itīs a bit risky to give advise the way you do. People are not forced to listen to you, but some unlucky person could get a deal on some piece of equipment the dude recommends and end up miserably unhappy. The kind of offensive, stubborn and false (until proven true, where are those MP3s???) statements the dude makes are diluting the credibility :rolleyes: of forums like this by claiming stuff to be true and not be able to back it up. I donīt know about you others, but this annoys the hell out of me, and thatīs why I keep banging my head against the wall like this. In roughly one month, heīs amassed about 360 posts on the Harmony-central forum, 360 posts saying about the same thing in different threads. I just think it would be a shame if heīd start doing that here too.
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 11:34 AM

Quote:
If you have such a hard time accepting my opinions, then you guys are truly stupid. You make fun of me, you mock me, and worst of all, give me stupid replies. Grow up! People who cant accept my opinions are dumbos!!!
Am not, am too, am not, am too, am not, am too .... Dad .... now can I have the keys to the car?
Posted By: Dave Horne

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 01:21 PM

P120dUdE,

I would be willing to bet that one reason we give you a hard time, we know we can provoke a response from you ... that, plus it's entertaining.

I should receive my P250 tomorrow and will report back after I've put it through its paces.
Posted By: RudyS

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 02:44 PM

I like the piano's in my korg N5. they are the best there is, all other piano samples on the world are crap!!! \:D
Posted By: moj

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Analogaddict:
In roughly one month, heīs amassed about 360 posts on the Harmony-central forum, 360 posts saying about the same thing in different threads. I just think it would be a shame if heīd start doing that here too.

Sounds like the other dude who complained ad nauseum about phase cancellation/mono sux on his P120 a few months ago. Maybe he's from the same family.
Posted By: guestuser@guestuser.com

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 04:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mojazz:
Maybe he's from the same family.
Oh, you mean the McTrolls! \:D
Posted By: moj

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 11:23 PM

\:D \:D \:D
Posted By: Analogaddict

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 05/31/04 11:33 PM

:rolleyes: :p ;\) \:D
Posted By: hermanjoe

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 08:27 AM

I was just revisiting this post because I am still debating the S90 vs. P250. Also realizing how nuts the P120Dude was. Any way I bought a Kurz PC2x and have to return it. It has some problems and the action is a mess. I am really stuck, any advice?
Posted By: TrancedelicBlues

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by p120dUdE:

If you have such a hard time accepting my opinions, then you guys are truly stupid. You make fun of me, you mock me, and worst of all, give me stupid replies. Grow up! People who cant accept my opinions are dumbos!!!

Regards,
p120dUdE


Goodness, I didn't realize you felt so strongly about it!!
Posted By: TrancedelicBlues

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hermanjoe:
I was just revisiting this post because I am still debating the S90 vs. P250. Also realizing how nuts the P120Dude was. Any way I bought a Kurz PC2x and have to return it. It has some problems and the action is a mess. I am really stuck, any advice?
I'm really sorry to hear that...
Good luck with getting the situation resloved.

I've been wanting to get a PC2 myself, via mail order (since I live in an area with few music stores) but perhaps I should rethink that \:\(

What sort of problems, if I may ask?
Posted By: NYKeys

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 02:13 PM

We respect everyone's opinion and everyone is entitled to one but when the same thing is said over and over again, it is almost like one of my kids asking me for the same toy that I already said no to 10 times before. Is there any other board that you like besides the P120?

You guys will want to check out this site, It will let you hear MP3's of many of the boards you are talking about. I wish they were still updating it.

They have midi files of song being used for the demo. So you could download it put it on a Smart Media Card and take it to your local music store to see for yourself which is better for you.

CLICK HERE: for the Digital Piano shoot out

There is nothing like the real thing. Listen to that Steinway.
Posted By: hermanjoe

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 07:02 PM

Just so you guys know, the P120dUde was banned awhile back so he will not respond to any posts regarding him. I'm not saying this as an attack, but I'm glad because now we can focus on the gear rather than the other stuff.

Ok, about the PC2x, I just don't like the action. It seems cheap to me, and for such an expensive piece of gear its not worth it. The sounds did not even compare to my GEM Promega 3. I have them side by side right now. The Gem piano is warm and the action, although a tad light is very high quality. The KUrz is just light, and as I said feels too cheep to me. I really think the strings are the only sound I really care for after playing through it. Some nice pianos, but I think I need something else.

That brings me to my original debate. Get an S90 or a P250. I need this board for a gig, and I want to use strings, organ ect. I like the S-90 for its expandability and great feel. I would midi a controller to it so I can have 2 tiers. 61 note and 88 note. But the P250 piano sound is supposed to be the best that Yami has. However, with this new piano board out, and loaded into the S-90, that could be the answer?

Any thoughts?
Posted By: gangsu

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 08:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by hermanjoe:
Any thoughts?
If it were my choice, (given that I wanted to spice up my musical experience with cutting edge toys) I would go with the S90.

1. You get to try out that brand new expansion card. If Mike Martin is proud of it, it's gotta be good.

2. You're used to a balanced action on the PM3. The s90 has a comparable action. Why mess with a good thing.

3. The onboard speakers of the p250 are useless for your application.

4. There's gotta be another reason but I'll be damned if I know. \:\)
Posted By: MikeT156

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 08:55 PM

Hey HermanJoe. I'm wondering if the P250 would still produce a better sounding Piano sample because the engine is dedicated to the Piano sample and has the best sample set up (Sympathetic string resonance-4th sample)The S90 and the other Motif engine based instruments do not. I really don't know if the S90 processes the sample from an expansion card any differently than it does from internal ROM samples. It would be interesting to find that out. All I can say is, we're so spoiled concerning ourselves about what sample is absolutely the best you can get. Kind of splitting hairs. \:D What we have now is so much better than what was available 8 or 10 years ago there's no comparison. My old Roland digital piano reminds me of that every time I play it.

Mike T. ;\)
Posted By: Anomaly

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 09:06 PM

Personally, I can't connect with the S90 action, plus it and the P250 are too heavy for this tired old back of mine.. I'm leaning on possibly going with perhaps a P120 or 90 with a Motif Rack with the new piano board installed.

Does anyone know if the Motif rack's engine will reproduce this new card's sound as well as the full-blown Motif or S90? That is abouut the only thing stopping me at this point.

Of course the P90 and 120 don't have pitch and mod wheels...Why in the hell can't somebody put sound quality, functions, big sound pallette and light weight into one board?

Anyone notice that with all the boards that are out there, we all have about the same problems with them? Seems someone is missing a huge market.
Posted By: hermanjoe

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/11/04 09:13 PM

I have thought about getting a P250 and using a motif rack as well, but it's just too damn expensive. I am leaning towards the
S-90 for applications which is: Live use and the source for all my sounds for this particular gig. I aslo think it will compliment my GEM Promega 3, which has a great piano sound. Tuthfully I will most likley end up owning both the S90 and the P250 simply because I can't make up my mind. I also thought about a P250 and a Motif 6 Classic. But again, it's expensive. That would be the best setup I think. Use the Motif for organ, strungs, ect, and the P250 for Piano. MMM....
Posted By: orangefunk

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 02:44 AM

I have a P120 and a Motif 7. The P120 does not send velocity correctly to the Motif.. its all very flat... you really have t whack the keys in an unnatural style... I love playing the piano and esp the rhodes from the MOTIF and think they are very dynamic but from the P120 its pretty dead sounding...

I may end up getting this

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

to compensate...

Its a shame Yamaha didn't pay attention to the MIDI out transmission from the P series pianos (just wondering if the P250 has the same problem)... the p80 also had the same problem...

Quote:
Originally posted by Anomaly:
Personally, I can't connect with the S90 action, plus it and the P250 are too heavy for this tired old back of mine.. I'm leaning on possibly going with perhaps a P120 or 90 with a Motif Rack with the new piano board installed.

Does anyone know if the Motif rack's engine will reproduce this new card's sound as well as the full-blown Motif or S90? That is abouut the only thing stopping me at this point.

Of course the P90 and 120 don't have pitch and mod wheels...Why in the hell can't somebody put sound quality, functions, big sound pallette and light weight into one board?

Anyone notice that with all the boards that are out there, we all have about the same problems with them? Seems someone is missing a huge market.
Posted By: hermanjoe

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 04:09 AM

Interesting...

I remember someone talking about a P250 not driving more that one midi device in a chain or something to that effect, but have not heard too much about velocity problems. I can't seem to even find a place to try a P250. Guitar Center never has one out, and they refuse to take one out of the box. I lot of my gear dilema's have been from not being able to try the stuff out.
After trying the S-90 out tonight I think it will fit my needs. I still would like to give the P250 a shot though.
Posted By: kalpajazz

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 04:44 AM

"Its a shame Yamaha didn't pay attention to the MIDI out transmission from the P series pianos (just wondering if the P250 has the same problem)... the p80 also had the same problem..."

The P80 had different velocity curve by each patch. Try E.P.1 (var) for high velocity midi out.
Posted By: orangefunk

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 06:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kalpajazz:
"Its a shame Yamaha didn't pay attention to the MIDI out transmission from the P series pianos (just wondering if the P250 has the same problem)... the p80 also had the same problem..."

The P80 had different velocity curve by each patch. Try E.P.1 (var) for high velocity midi out.
It still was wrong in my opinion... I get a velocity of 123 when I really whack it.. and I mean in an unnatural way yet I can get 127 easily from the MOTIF...
Posted By: Jazz+

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 08:11 AM

I see.
Posted By: hermanjoe

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 10:22 AM

Played Them all. I think Vintage 74 is my fav.
Posted By: orangefunk

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 05:36 PM

I think the Vintage 74 has exactly the right character although perhaps its not as dynamic as the Electro rhodes...
Posted By: BOPBEEPER

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 08/12/04 11:54 PM

Speaking for a moment as part of the audience I sometimes have to endure some realy so-so piano sounds at my local Jazz club. Even If what is being played is musical the sound is not usualy cutting it next to the guitar or sax.One gig with someone on a P80 the Rhodes sound was unbearable,another gig the P200 Rhodes was suprisingly enjoyable even nicely 'rough'. Every now and then a UK player called Jonathan Gee hits town and a mate loans him the P120.Now Jonathan is natural born groover and he mostly just plays the EP2 Rhodes well, I just sit there for the whole gig with a big grin on my face - that sound is just so warm and organic sounding.When he swiches to the Ac. preset its almost a bit of a letdown.
Posted By: Jazz+

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 01:00 AM

Thanks
Posted By: Music*aL

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 01:21 AM

I also love the Vintage 74 Rhodes on the Motif, but can't get myself to justify the purchase of the rack or ES6 just for that sound. I have the S80, and am happy with it for the most part. I don't use it for Pianos, I use Bardstown Audio or the Bosie 290 samples in Kontakt or even my Korg SGpro module every once in a while. But for EP, the Vintage 74 is really beautiful and very expresssive.

Boy, I wonder if that patch is closely approximated on the PLG150pf? Anybody know?

aL
Posted By: Jazz+

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 01:38 AM

Good something
Posted By: orangefunk

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 02:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BOPBEEPER:
Every now and then a UK player called Jonathan Gee hits town and a mate loans him the P120.Now Jonathan is natural born groover and he mostly just plays the EP2 Rhodes well, .
Yeah Jonathan Gee is a killer player, I saw him on Jazz 606 years ago with David Jean Baptiste yhe superb bass clarinet player... wow great song too called "Fire people" I think..

Can't imagine him playing a digital...
Posted By: eric

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 03:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by petros

Your S80 has the original version of "Vintage 74" but it's called "Herb Roadz". I think "Herb Roadz" had slightly fatter high notes than "Vintage 74". The old PLG150-PF piano card had another variation of it called "Tea" Rhodes and it seemed to have even fatter high notes.
You are nitpicking these Rompler edits too much. The newer instruments should sound better.

Regards,
Eric
Posted By: Music*aL

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 05:48 AM

The Herb Rhodes doesn't seem to have as much phasing, or some other effect as the vintage 74 does. The 74 seems to either have a chorus effect or something that does make it fatter than the Herb Rhodes...

aL
Posted By: Jazz+

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 05:53 AM

Are you sure?
Posted By: Music*aL

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/06/04 06:32 AM

Herb Rhodes has an auto pan effect also, or is it a tremolo? It's different than the Vintage 74.... But the quality of the vintage 74 seems phatter and fuller than the Herb Rhodes. I think it's the second layer of the Vintage 74 sample that seems to have more growl than the Herb Rhodes sample....
Posted By: Junkstyle

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/10/04 12:59 AM

I have played both the P250 and the S90 they are both very fine high quality keyboards. That P120dUde is smoking crack if he thinks the P250 is "awful" compared to teh P120. It one thing to have a personal preference of the keyboard you like but its another thing to mindlessly slam and not respect another keyboards and people's opinions.

If you dont need the built in speakers I would go for the S90. The action should be almost identical and it will be smaller and more expandable for the future. The P250 has a very beautiful grand piano sound. I like it on the mellow grand piano because its so warm and nice. But it has several pianos. I would LOVE to have either the P250 or S90 or even P120, P90, P60.

Many people think the P250 has the best digital piano sound of the yamahas. I would not disagree with that. Its a really good sound. I would definitely recommend trying both the P250 and the S90 in the same showroom and decide which would fit your needs the best.

People like Yamahas, Rolands, Kurzweils, etc. Get the keyboard you like and then you will never regret it. (I'm going to try follow my own advice here myself and get a keyboard soon I hope)
Posted By: lvercaut

Re: "Rhodes" in Yamaha P250 / P120 / S90? - 09/10/04 04:44 PM

I had a P-250 for about six months... and sold it for an S90. The P-250 may be the superior piano but i have more fun with the S90.
I did the swap because of the many beautiful Rhodes sounds in the S90.
I'll put the new AP board in as soon as i can buy one (end of october ??) \:D

lvercaut
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