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#973969 04/23/00 09:32 PM
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Shall we look forward from an engineering / production perspective instead of a curmugeonly look back at music and it's history post Leadbelly?

Jules


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#973970 04/23/00 11:51 PM
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Bookumdano:

I agree with your last post.

Jerk:

Not that we measure the quality of Music by drugs, but there were drugs in Music long before Jerry Garcia or Ken Kesey were born.

And The Beatles were doing speed in 1960 in Hamburg.

IF you knew anything about Music, and the chord changes they innovated, not the R&R they ripped off from the Black American Artists, which they've always freely admitted, you could never compare them to "ET" and Spielburg. Maybe Woody Allen's "Manhatten", or Scorcese's stuff (Film Snob talking, but then again you think "Stars Wars " is better than "Blade Runner" because it has such neat explosions!!).

But, as Jules said, this is supposed to be about the future.

So, I think I'll be dead, and don't really give a shit.

But, frankly, the "Future Shock" stuff just hasn't happened for me.

Everything is going way too slow. We can't even cure the common cold yet!!

As far as the future in Music; Maybe you're just too involved to see it, but it has NOTHING to do with Music anymore.

It has to do with Business and Money.

Do you think all these companies are making stuff that you can use at home to further the Art, or so that the average guy can record at home?

GROW UP!!

IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY!!

If the stuff didn't sell, but computer generated Crack making programs did, then all the "Artistically" minded companies would be on that software like a fly on shit, as soon as they paid off the right Politicians to make Crack legal.

Is that not just so obvious?

When Rupert Neve started his little company, he wanted to make money, yes, but he actually (I believe) wanted to make a GOOD product, to improve the Art.

When Siemens bought him out, do you think that's what they were thinking?

Do you think Harmon bought all those companies up to "further" the Art and Technology?

Why, after a product comes out, do 20 other companies try and make the same thing for less? For the love of Technolgy and Art, or the dough?

Do you think you'd be able to buy your computer for any other reason than the company that makes it wants to be on NASDAQ?

Ever hear of Market Research?

If Digidesign found out they could make more money, with less costs, and fewer employees, making solar powered roller blades, Pro Tools would be history, in a nano-second

So, what about the future of recording?

I see a "dumbing down" to reach a larger marketplace.

Software that corrects pitch, and time, and even writes music. Oh wait... we HAVE that already!!

Stuff that will let 14 year old girls become Brittany Spears in their houses using their computers will go through the roof.

Think I'm wrong? I can't give away any details, but it's on the way.

Just tell the manufacturers that you have no talent, and want to make Muzak, and have the money to buy the gear, and it will be there.

Is that necessarily a bad thing?

I must agree with most, and say no, because it gives access to of the technology to almost everyone; sort of like "Punk Socialism".

Is it going to give us more Art?

Certainly. Looking back again, (sorry), but the from Dada-ists, to Jazz, to Rock and Roll to Punk, it ALWAYS has.

Will that be BETTER Music and Art?

It will be if you like Big Macs.

I know I'm out of it, but so are all of you, no matter HOW "Today, Felix, Today", you think you are.

Your sperm (eggs) are way ahead of where you'll ever be, and you'll soon be talking about the good old days of Pro Tools, and how can these kids have those White Noise implants and believe that that is Music/Art?

What will store and play the Muzak?

Whatever is bigger and smaller and cheaper.

I'll use whatever it is. I do now. I can have preferences and opinions, like we all do, but you know what they say, "Opinions are like Assholes; we all have one"

And "Awards are like Hemorrhoids. Sooner or later every Asshole gets one".

Let's record our Music, or Muzak, on whatever we have at any given time, try and make it as good as we can, accept the future, and not take this all so seriously.

It's not brain surgery, you know.

It's just Imperialism, disguised as Technology, but we all have to eat.

Hope every one remembered Earth Day.

Happy Easter/Passover/Holiday/Sunday/Whatever you call today.

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Bob.

[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 04-23-2000).]


Bob Buontempo.

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#973971 04/24/00 03:51 AM
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Jesus! What was that? A last gasp dying croak? Were the spaces where you were drawing breath from an oxegen mask?
Hello Hal, do you want to play a game? Something wonderfull is going to happen! Cue monoliths and spacemen watching an old man eat dinner.

"But, as Jules said, this is supposed to be about the future. So, I think I'll be dead, and don't really give a shit.'

Well you are POSTING ON THE WRONG THREAD THEN aint ya?

Sheesh!

Good health and a long life!

Jules


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#973972 04/24/00 08:58 AM
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Jules:

Thanks for the good wishes for health and a long life, but I don't think that I'm much older than you, if at all.

I think you missed the point.

It was just my little speech on how the future of the music business will be controlled by the Multi-National Corporations making the toys we all love, and not by any of OUR desires, wants, or needs, unless it is economically profitable for them.

Remember, but as an Englishman, probably lacking much American History knowledge, what Eisenhower said when he left office, "Beware of the Industrial Military Complex".

THEY control the technology and business, of which most record companies are involved. Not YOU, although you once posted something eluding to how you DO influence it in Britian.

And, by the way, those spaces in the post are called PARAGRAPHS.

I like to not cram everything into onelongunbrokenbuchofwordsthataredifficult
toreadwithnospaceinbetweendifferentideas,
ifyouknowwhatImean.

Friends?



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Bob.

[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 04-24-2000).]


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#973973 04/24/00 11:11 AM
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Sorry- this is a "now" instead of future question, but I was wondering if you all think... alright, hypothetical, assuming:

1. George Martin stayed way up on, and uses, cutting-edge gear through the years (and has it all mastered).
2. That he didn't age (ears).
3. That he goes back in time, grabs the Fab 4 (while walking through the door at Abby Road?, they all magically end up in a new, state of the art studio, well-stocked, and he explains to them what the hell just happend).

Could he make Strawberry Fields sound exactly the same? (No analogue or digital preference -- everything's available to him -- and I'm assumming all-digital would be a no go)

By the way, everyone's thoughts, Alphajerk certainly included, are making great reading!!

#973974 04/24/00 03:26 PM
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BTW Mix Fix, I'm an American, living in London.

I bail from this thread!

See ya!

Jules


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Producer Julian Standen
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#973975 04/24/00 04:05 PM
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C.Cash

Since they always used cutting edge technology, I think The Beatles could cut it any way thet wanted, Analogue or Digital.

I still think they would use real Musicians playing on the tracks, though.



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Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973976 04/24/00 06:08 PM
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Sarcasm is very hard to convey and/or understand on the net... Please be nice!


Kris
My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days...

http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04
#973977 04/24/00 06:17 PM
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Sure Bill, scare Julian away!

The Beatles and George Martin would have been fine in a modern recording environment. After all, just listen to that thing Martin did with all of the big stars covering Beatles tunes.

An ex-boss once told me that he saw an old photo of a young George Martin, and that I looked like him. I'm hoping that's a good thing!

Rich...

#973978 04/25/00 05:55 AM
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Kris:

I am always trying to be sarcastic. I thought that's what the little things were for.

If anybody got REALLY offended, I'm sorry.

I thought this was just supposed to be like a bunch of guys talking to each other in a bar or something. Let's not get our knickers all knotted up over opinions.

It's been fun for me to brain excercise.

I hope you have all thought of it in the same way.



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Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973979 04/25/00 09:22 AM
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Bob-
I can tell that you have a lot of technical and musical skill, and I value your posts for what I can learn from you.

BUT Bob- all that good stuff gets to be so intertwined with your more sarcastic, combative side that I'm considering just skipping postings by "The Mix Fix" as too much pain. As far as the "Buncha guys in a bar" scenario goes, I think I prefer the bars where less brawling and yelling occurs. I follow these threads trying to learn something- often of a relatively technical nature. If the participants get into arguments that are, shall we say, less than polite, folks get offended and we get off topic pretty fast.Even if it seems like "good clean fun" to you, a thread can get long and off subject and a little adolescent.

You may think me a tad too touchy- I expect you do. But please consider the value of your knowledge and how much more useful it becomes when stated succiently.

thanks
ML

#973980 04/25/00 05:25 PM
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Mark:

Thanks for the reply.

I'll keep that in mind and try to be more technical and less potically passionate with my replies.

It's getting boring and time consuming to keep bickering, anyway.

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Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973981 04/25/00 06:58 PM
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Mark, please forgive Bob, he's from Jersey!

One thing that I hope the future brings me (in NC, not Asheville) is a well designed room in which to mix. I'm tired of going to someone's studio and finding that there control room is a CUBE and that it resonates like crazy at several frequencies.

Where's Storyk when I need him!

Rich...

[This message has been edited by Richard V. Wielgosz (edited 04-25-2000).]

#973982 04/25/00 07:16 PM
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Rich:

Are you being sarcastic again?

I can't tell?





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Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973983 04/25/00 08:51 PM
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re. Julian's post:

You've got something a lot worse to fear than MP3 bootlegging.

In the words of Miles Copeland "hey, I may be just a peasant, man", but in past few years I've witnessed a rapid shift in people's willingness to accept basically anything as "product".

What I mean is that it would seem people today are not exactly making choices any more based on self-examination of what they really like, but what they think people *think* they should like.

Kids have now grown up having listened to a sound track of Nintendo more than anything (as a guitar teacher by trade, I routinely get requests now to show kids how to play themes to video games - no kidding). They've also grown up listening to music based around a monotone rhythmic voice with no harmonic information (you know what music I'm talking about).

Likewise, a lot of the youth of today generally do not have the musical education to appreciate melody and harmony. They're also not attuned to subtly - except in detecting cliches in trends.

When I first heard on the radio that Sugar Ray song with the out of key parallel thirds riff I thought it was a joke. People started bringing this song to me to learn; when asked what they thought about the out of key part they just said "I don't know, it just sounds good to me"...

... and when Puff Daddy made a "song" out of talking over a Jimmy Page song, no one seemed to notice. When I asked people what they thought about it they all say "Puff Daddy is a genius!"... Now I hear the new Kid Rock is Metallica's "Sad but True" almost in it's entirety.

The point is that no one apparently notices or cares that it's blatantly taken from somewhere else. I hear many complaints of small studios stealing business from larger ones: this is happening because people can't tell the difference anymore. I cite this because chances are getting good that the artistry involved in a brilliant recording/mix is getting lost in the banality/truth ratio.

If I was in position as Mssrs. Cherney, Nichols and Massenberg I would be very concerned that the populace as a whole is losing the ability to appreciate why they're paid to be who they are. MP3's will innevitably dilute the profitability of the business, but more specifically the increasing attitude of music as a *disposable commodity* should be more of a concern.

Perhaps the psychological adjustment from the nature of carefully handling vinyl records to recklessly grabbing a cd is to blame, but I think it's more the political acceptance of "hey, everybody can be a musician/engineer - or ARTIST" is at fault. The future of recording is one of generic competance I am afraid.

Or maybe not, I've just been in a particularly disparaging mood of late, sorry.


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#973984 04/26/00 11:06 AM
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Chip- I agree, but am not as despondent as you seemed to be when you posted.

Thank god I'm not being asked to teach kids the themes to their video games!!

Regardless of the lousy trends in the commercial music business- all the shit you referred to, there is still plenty of great music out there that will be there regardless of the current trends. I do alot of early music, classical, and choral stuff. Now those folks value hi-fi! Also latin ( I just did a Cuban Danson group with flute, clarinet, 3 percussionists, bass, piano, vocals, strings, and tres). Also lots of jazz and jazzy hybrids. All these musicians value hi-fi over sheer volume, do minimal or no drugs, pay their bills, and have no interest in becoming their own engineers- they are too busy playing and learning music to get into that.

I also suspect they know that it takes a lifetime to learn to engineer as well as the engineers they hire who have spent a lifetime learning to engineer, and they want the records they play on to sound GOOD.

I believe the ability to release a CD cheaply means there are more unusual musics being financed. The budjets are low but adequate- and the music is very intellectually and spiritually rewarding.

I hope you have other creative outlets to balance the teaching blues...

ML(my real initials!!)

#973985 04/26/00 04:33 PM
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Chip:

I think you should check out my posts and Benjy King's posts on George's board, under "The MOST important thing", and a few others where We both get slammed for saying that most engineers today lack a sufficient degree of Musical Knowledge.

I've been criticized for getting too passionate about a subject or straying from the topic, so I'll leave it at that, for now.

And Mark, sure, SOME people/clients are great to work with and care about what their stuff sounds like.

But, how about MOST of them, especially in the "Top 40", Pop, R&B, and Rap/Hip Hop and similar catagories to which Chip seems to be refering?

It seems like you're Musically educated, as well.

AND you are damn lucky to not have kids ask you to teach them video game "songs", or to get such a great selection af Artists with which to work.

------------------
Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973986 04/26/00 06:31 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Lemaire:

Regardless of the lousy trends in the music business, there is still plenty of great music out there..... All these musicians value hi-fi over sheer volume, do minimal or no drugs, pay their bills, and have no interest in becoming their own engineers- they are too busy playing and learning music to get into that.

I also suspect they know that it takes a lifetime to learn to engineer as well as the engineers they hire who have spent a lifetime learning to engineer, and they want the records they play on to sound GOOD.

I believe the ability to release a CD cheaply means there are more unusual musics being financed. The budjets are low but adequate- and the music is very intellectually and spiritually rewarding.

Mark,
I couldn't agree more. Just when you think it's all 'dreck' out there. For myself, living in NYC...working in very competitive studios, you can get a 'blinders' effect. No peripheral vision. Then I walk into this studio in the Pocono Mountains(PA.) and open up an Alligator Records catalog. WOW!! It's still a big world out there.

Benjy


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#973987 04/26/00 09:30 PM
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My future is a future with no cables... everything is cordless..., oh and the virtual mixing Stephen St. Croix (sp?) of Mix magazine spoke of sounds fantastic... a screen over your eyes to see and sensors attached to your fingers, and with quality headphones, oh and waterproof, and I can mix in my hottub.


Kris
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http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04
#973988 04/27/00 04:31 AM
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future of music to the end would be a direct connection to the brain which would record exactly what you imagined in your head. this would also be coupled with a visual device that you could do the music video at the same time.


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#973989 04/27/00 06:31 AM
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Bob, what part of my previous post is unclear to you?

Pop music today BLOWS. It's as simple as that. For the most part we're all preaching to the choir here.

I won't mention any bands here by name, but do any of you fund yourself hating some bands that are generally regarded as good (or great) my many people? And I don't mean POP music bands here... I mean bands that might go down in history as being great, and yet when you listen to them, the truth is they're really not all they're cracked up to be?

I've been really lucky though. I've so far had the opportunity to record a lot of bands that play music I like, and would actually listen to in my down time.

Rich...

#973990 04/27/00 09:29 AM
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Rich:

Huh?

I understood your post.

My JOKE about you being sarcastic?

If it's not that, then I don't get it. Are you just putting me on?

And Kris and Alpha.

I do that already, the mind mix stuff.

But come on. How lazy can we get? Isn't it FUN to turn knobs and push buttons, and see LEDs blink, and have girls think you actually know what you're doing?



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Bob.


Bob Buontempo.

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#973991 04/27/00 04:16 PM
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In my scenario there are knobs and buttons, they are just virtual reality. And my virtual girls love it when I touch knobs and push buttons.


Kris
My Band: http://www.fullblackout.com UPDATED!!! Fairly regularly these days...

http://www.logcabinmusic.com updated 11/9/04
#973992 04/28/00 08:30 AM
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Kris:

I've always said that recording engineers twist knobs and push buttons better!!



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Bob.


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#973993 04/28/00 06:38 PM
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The blinking lights, actually being able to touch a dedicated knob, rolling down to the left to fix something(real estate). I like my hard drives and plugins too, but if the budget is okay and the musics ready then its off to the studio for me...
Replying to what Richard posted didnt pop music always suck accept for a few good musicians?

#973994 04/28/00 06:58 PM
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That's an interesting question, and the answer might be YES.

However, 20 years ago I could actually listen to pop music and not want to vomit. When I lsten to the oldie stations and listen to the stuff that old guys like Bob grew up on, I find that very listenable also.

But musical snobs like myself (and Bob) know where the good tunes are, and they aren't ont he radio.

Rich...

#973995 04/28/00 08:03 PM
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There will always be a market for good music.
There will always be good music.
Technology will change.
Those in the midst of the change will always see it as "scary".

In the end the boxes and toys don't make music people do. Some will be fooled by the box, but real music will always come out.

The trend towards home studio's put some power in the "little guys" hands. I work on great music all the time (well, most of the time). The big problem is how to get that music out there. Right now the internet is to confusing and decentralized for people to find what they want.

This is a big and complicated issue so I choose to revert to my truest instinct, to concentrate on the music I have an effect on and trudge forward. I know it sounds simple, but the "big" answers always are.

Good luck in the Future....

#973996 05/06/00 03:31 PM
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Blackwon 88:

I, too, like big consoles, knobs, and blinking lights, plus being able to coast around in the rolling chairs from one end of the 20 foot long console to the other.

It will be a shame if the "Magical Place" feelings you get when you enter a large, Pro Studio go away forever in the future.

Just remeber how cool it felt the first time you went into one. The atmosphere, the acoustics, even the smell of the room (electronic, not illegal) gave out an incredible vibe.

I still get chills, sometimes even now after years of engineering, when I walk into a new, big room.

If anyone doesn't think it's true, bring a friend who has never been into a REAL studio into a well equipped control room, with like a 72 input SSL, and a large tracking room, and see what they think.

The cameras always come out, and many young Ladies will go to "dinner" with you after you show them your "Big Board".

Or Young Men, not to be sexist, or forget to include some of you with different tastes.




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Bob.

[This message has been edited by THE MIX FIX (edited 05-06-2000).]


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#973997 05/07/00 12:52 AM
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I agree, there's nothing like a wonderful "real" studio with a huge desk and excellent tracking rooms.

For me there's nothing like the smell of old electronic equipment either. It brings me back to the days of my youth when my grandfather (a self taught electronics wiz) would fix all sorts of his neighbors broken radios and TV's, AND take components from a variety of different places and make something unusual. He made his first hearing aid.

But I'm not sure I agree that there will always be a market for good music. Schools are dumbing down education and as corporatism expands even further with mergers the music seems to keep getting worse.

Despite what you've been told, our school systems are designed to produce automatons who fall in line, not bright people who think for themselves. And the deterioration of the quality of pop music seems to demonstrate it. I don't fear technology, and change is good. I'm a technology slut. But I do fear the direction popular music (and music in general) seems to be going. When there's only 100 people left in the world who want to hear a certain kind of music, it's safe to say that market doesn't exist. Except the way large corporations practice business today, 100,000 sales aren't even enough.

Rich...

[This message has been edited by Richard V. Wielgosz (edited 05-06-2000).]

#973998 05/07/00 08:17 AM
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yea, those nice big reflective surfaces are great right infront of you distorting the sound in their own unique way. might as well roll down to the end of the board to make an adjustment OUT of the sweet spot.

screw the blinking lights, give me a 60" gas plasma screen anyday. mounted right above the glass. looking right into a nice big tracking room.


alphajerk
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