Mark Borland Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I posting up a topic when this came to me? How does anyone know they are right? Lets face it we would all like to think we are all objective and rational but we are not. We are all the products of our environment and our belief that what we are doing is politicall, morally and religiously correct is no more valid than that of someone in Iraq or any other country who believes that they are correct. Take this as an example.... What if roles were reversed and America was ruled by Saddam and was the great Muslim superpower who felt that the small rogue democratic state Iraq was a threat with all their inhumane free choice and speech. The same arguments and rhetoric would still be taking place and people would be telling us how justified it all was. Perhaps until we all realise that there are not intrinsic black and whites when it comes to points of view then we will remain at a cultural stalemate. Thoughts please people Growing old is inevitable....Growing up is optional ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 there is no reality, only general consensus. if enough people believe that 3 plus 2 = 6 then that becomes the reality. -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Been reading 'Conversations With God', Mark? I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-brm Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mark Borland: [b]I posting up a topic when this came to me? How does anyone know they are right? [/b][/quote]Ask a teenager while they still know everything. It's OK to tempt fate. Just don't drop your drawers and moon her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I guess time will tell. "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barandine Vondenger Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mark Borland: [b]I posting up a topic when this came to me? How does anyone know they are right? Thoughts please people[/b][/quote]Is it right to cut the hand from a theif? is it right to steal bread if you are hungry? is it right to cut off someones head if a thousand folkes tell you to do it? are you wrong to "take" a girls favors? should you respect and care for a strangers child as you would your own. what can a child do to deserve being struck or hit? How much respect does a child deserve? If a book written by a man tells you to kill folkes will you do it? when do you stop trying to be a better person before GOD? when is it OKAY to hit a woman? A MAN? If you have; do you share equally? why? who is responsible for "your" thoughts and actions? When ever you get angry,"what" are you really angry about? the issue OR your OWN EXPECTATIONS in regard of that issue. if one expects gold and gets dung you will always be dissapointed. dried dung will burn. Gold will Not. Which is more important. a warm fire at night or ten pounds of gold. A father drew a line in the desert sand with a jesus-tree-stick before a row of tents and told his sons: harken and heed my word; "These tents are off limits to my sons with wives and these tents are off limits to my unmarried sons". "NONE may pass". what do you believe may have happened?What was in the tents? you must ask yourself "where do I draw my moral line in the sand, the line I will not cross. You must look for your reflection in the midnight shallows of the OASIS and ask it the question you most wish to know the answer, keep asking. Frank Ranklin and the Ranktones WARP SPEED ONLY STREAM FRANKIE RANKLIN (Stanky Franks) <<< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Borland Posted March 18, 2003 Author Share Posted March 18, 2003 This is good, intelligent discussion! Keep it coming folks! I haven't read conversatons with God, we only get comics here! Growing old is inevitable....Growing up is optional ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Keelan Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 the thought occurred to me last night that if Saddam had a televised response, I have no doubt that it would be reported to us verbatim in it's entirety. I have little doubt that Bush's message was reported to the Iraqi people in this manner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Borland Posted March 18, 2003 Author Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Bob Keelan: [b]the thought occurred to me last night that if Saddam had a televised response, I have no doubt that it would be reported to us verbatim in it's entirety. I have little doubt that Bush's message was reported to the Iraqi people in this manner[/b][/quote]Of this I have no doubt Bob, but if the roles were reversed would you not be saying the same thing in defence of your regime? I am not here to take sides point out where it all went wrong, merely to pose a hypothetical question and discuss this point with others. Ya never know, maybe we'll find out how to fix it all! Growing old is inevitable....Growing up is optional ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Bob Keelan: [b]the thought occurred to me last night that if Saddam had a televised response, I have no doubt that it would be reported to us verbatim in it's entirety. I have little doubt that Bush's message was reported to the Iraqi people in this manner[/b][/quote]They showed coverage from Iraqi TV last night regarding the Presidents speech. Interestingly, the gov't representatives promised that the military action would fail, called Kofi Annon names for pulling the inspectors out, and described Bush, Blair and the Spanish prime monister... "the three losers". Typical Iraqi grist. Oh yeah, they made a big point to say that Saddam wasn't going anywhere. So it's war. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 There is no religion higher than the truth-unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Keelan Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Mark Borland: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Bob Keelan: [b]the thought occurred to me last night that if Saddam had a televised response, I have no doubt that it would be reported to us verbatim in it's entirety. I have little doubt that Bush's message was reported to the Iraqi people in this manner[/b][/quote]Of this I have no doubt Bob, but if the roles were reversed would you not be saying the same thing in defence of your regime? I am not here to take sides point out where it all went wrong, merely to pose a hypothetical question and discuss this point with others. Ya never know, maybe we'll find out how to fix it all![/b][/quote]I hear ya Mark. I'm sure that they feel that their TRUTH is TRUER than my TRUTH :freak: I'm trying to avoid being rightous about this but when one regime is forbidden access to world news, internet, etc. and the other one isn't.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]How do we know who is right? [/quote]HISTORY is ALWAYS written by the victors. One man's freedom fighter is another man's traitor. It's always been this way. Look at the "founding fathers" of the US we now revere. What did the British gov't of the time call them. Damn Traitors. And in a real sense, they were. I mean they WERE British citizens who rebelled... traitors to their native country who took up arms against them. If they had lost. History would know them as traitors. For sure. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I hate that explanation. That to me is like saying, people have always been stupid and they always will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Keelan Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 ... and war 'crimes' are committed by the losers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]I hate that explanation. That to me is like saying, people have always been stupid and they always will be.[/b][/quote]It's all about the history books. People aren't stupid... or at least many are not stupid. But it's a question of perspective. Chechnya terrorist or freedom fighter? Look back in a couple of decades and the history books will have "decided". guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offramp Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Mark, it's in the bookstores...all three volumes. I've upped my standards; now, up yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Well you know you can come up with all these elaborate explanations of why things are the way they are, but, like I was talking about on another thread, the human race, as a whole is just too dumb to get their act together. It's stupid what Bin Laden did, our reaction to is stupid, history of the world, stupidity piled upon stupidity. Fuck man, when are we going to wise up and stop hurting each other. When are we going to learn to share this wonderful planet that is our home? WHEN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brittanylips Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 I have found that there is a much easier method for determining who is right on this (and every) issue: they are the ones who agree with me! -Peace, Love, and Brittanylips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philter Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 Fact: History is only written by the winners for as long as those winners manage to remain in power. Thus, the discrediting of Stalin in Russia. I don't think that anyone today argues that the way early settlers treated the native Americans was right. In time, winners become losers and the books change. Again, that idea is a perfect example of dichotic thinking- black/white, up/down, when in fact, the passing of history is much more complicated than "winners/losers." I accused guitplayer of being a dichotic thinker in another thread and that accusation stands. ---------------------------- Phil Mann http://www.wideblacksky.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaz Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b] When are we going to learn to share this wonderful planet that is our home? WHEN?[/b][/quote]The strange thing is, a lot of us, or most of us already do. From what I've read, if one can believe anything that's printed anywhere, most Iraqis are just people living a peaceful life. Which is maybe why this war stuff seems so barbaric. The fact that the leaders would choose so easily to fight with their children's lives... :cry: With all the progress mankind has made, seems we are still living in the dark ages. So, hopefully, the democrats, or a third party, will wake up, and take back the White House in 2004. Shock and awe the country with an intelligent leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turd Polisher Posted March 18, 2003 Share Posted March 18, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]I hate that explanation. That to me is like saying, people have always been stupid and they always will be.[/b][/quote]It's all about the history books. People aren't stupid... or at least many are not stupid. But it's a question of perspective. [/b][/quote]You're right, it IS a question of perception. If you were extremely stupid, it would seem to you that most other people weren't. Wait, what did you just say? Sounds fine. Come on in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonym Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 This is an endless but interesting thread that philosophy can debate about 'till the end of time. About 25 years ago I got interested in Nietzche (German philosopher). Three of his books are what you would call "masterpieces" of logic. 1. The Will to Power 2. Beyound Good and Evil 3. Thus Spake Zurathustra. All good books if you want to know about intrinsic thought. He also predicted the rise of the "superman" ideology and the demise of religion and the "moral man". He also believed that with enough time and suffering in the human race, It should all eventually homogenize into one big "who gives a crap". :love: WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 "Fuck man, when are we going to wise up and stop hurting each other. When are we going to learn to share this wonderful planet that is our home? WHEN?" When something bigger than all of us threatens all of us. Seems to me that some people in the world have a need to have controversey in their lives. Whether its with family, significant others, co-workers, or perfect strangers, some folk just have to have some sort of crisis to b*tch about. The sort of thing that can bring humans together would be (in an extreme, far-out example) an alien invasion, or a gigantic asteroid heading to earth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Brain Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 I don't know why a megalomaniac behind the reigns of the world's only superpower can't fit the bill. "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonym Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 While you where climbing steps, "they" were on the fucking elevator. I'm not in the buisness of giving "advice", but it's wise to preserve thyself and to hell with all else. Just hunker down unil this cloud of shit passes over us and try to do what you love. Forget all the "happy stuff" about waiting and hoping for a perfect world, because after my 45 years of breathing air, I have yet to see it. :) WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonym Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Sorry, it's Nietzsche, what a fucked-up name. Also if you can get through the fucked-up translations, because it was originally written in archaic German launguage of that time, and have about 2 years of free time to sit and read, well, you will have the strongest mind on earth.... :thu: WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Borland Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 Guys and Gals, Cheers for all the post on this and most of all thanks for keeping the spirit of the topic without degenerating into name calling as appears to happen on quite a few other threads. I think there have been many points well made on this thread and alot to think about. If we can all get to gether and talk rationally about issues as big as this then maybe there can be hope for us all one day. I read a great quote the other day. It goes as follows : "The fact that someone wants to be a politician should ban them for life from ever being one." Perhaps this could be the topic of another thread! Thanks again to everyone for contributing and keep thinking, talking and questioning. All the best Growing old is inevitable....Growing up is optional ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by mjackson: [b]Sorry, it's Nietzsche, what a fucked-up name. Also if you can get through the fucked-up translations, because it was originally written in archaic German launguage of that time, and have about 2 years of free time to sit and read, well, you will have the strongest mind on earth.... :thu: [/b][/quote]I've read a good bit of Nietzsche's work and also his biography, and I'm one of those people who would say he was insane. Look at his history. He was a very brilliant young man, but from the age of 30 spent a good bit of time ill, in a mental hospital, or under the care of his family. One theory of the cause of his mental aberrations is that he contracted syphillis at a very young age, and it took many, many, years for it to fully manifest itself. While I find his work intensely fascinating, I also find it largely the ravings of a lunatic. For more info do a web search for Was Nietzsche Insane? or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonym Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 I also think that Sartre was brilliant. Thats the problem with them smart folk, they get a little nutty(disease or not). Even Newton predicted the end of the human race, I think it's 58 years from now or something like that, you just have to use your own judgement on these things and go on. It is a mystical event, though, when you spend your early years in public schools and then "discover" these groovey cats. :idea: WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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