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Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942132 09/30/05 03:18 AM
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offramp Offline
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dave holloway...check your PM's....


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942133 09/30/05 05:26 AM
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David Holloway Offline OP
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Done ;\)

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942134 10/01/05 02:28 PM
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offramp Offline
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Managed to wrangle a nice mix of drums 'n' bass last night; a 'morning after' check reveals that my ears were not off. I got back exactly what I put into it, which is good, regardless of the outcome.

On the other hand, this thing is taking a bit of a different direction as I massage it. I've stumbled upon a different set of chords for the verses, and the song seems to move a little better, goes places a little more.

A little more tracking today, and I hope to have an example of what I'm talking about ready for you. SO, what I propose is that I flesh out this slightly altered arrangement, post it, and see if you're all kosher with it. If so, I'll need some of you to re-record your tracks.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942135 10/01/05 07:19 PM
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PBBPaul Offline
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Sounds cool to me. I look forward to hearing it.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942136 10/01/05 08:00 PM
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offramp Offline
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Alrighty, then...

here it is, for now

I needed to include a lot of text, here, about what's happening and how I got to this moment, but I've been indoors all day, my wife just got home from work and so has she, and it's beautiful out, so we're gonna go get a bite to eat and a beer or four.
I'll 'splain more when I get back.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942137 10/01/05 08:01 PM
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Chris Kemp Offline
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I'm willing - let me know!

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942138 10/02/05 12:00 AM
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offramp Offline
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Chris, check PM's.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942139 10/02/05 01:20 PM
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Chris Kemp Offline
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Back at ya. BTW - we posted at the same time, I didn't even realize you had posted the mix until just now. Listening now - interesting!

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942140 10/03/05 11:36 AM
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Billster Offline
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Here is Billís Rebuild Mix 2 (You send it link, time expires whenever that expires) Dave, you have mail

To respond to some of the ideas raised in reply to my previous mix:

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
I think the bass guitar level is a little high...you did a nice job of finding the signature Stingray growl.

The bass solo level seems low...I'd say cut some more lows and roll some of the highs back in to get the level higher and bring more presence to it. The whole idea behind the bass solo was for it to almost be a continuation of the percussion solo.


Tweaked accordingly, within my taste ;\)

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
Snare should have a little more attack IMHO...maybe a little boost around 2-3K? I couldn't find the "smack" in the kick drum (not sure what mic Offramp used...Offramp?), but maybe you'll have more success with it than I did. The kick has plenty of thump...just needs a little more click to it I think.


Definitely, I worked to add more crack to the snare, and some more click and beater to the kick. I think the overheads might still be a little hot.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
On the percussion solo, I'd say add some of the conga's back in...maybe panned to the sides and kind of in the background?


Itís in there, maybe itís too low. I felt the djembe was really the point of the break. The congas are in fact panned off somewhat to one side.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
Nice job on the vocals...they should stand out and they do! Very nice. You did some sort of panning or effect change on the vocals on the first chorus...I actually found that distracting. It was cool though...not sure of my actual opinion on it yet.


I added some doubling to the lead vocal on a few key phrases. The first mix had some pretty radical panning Ė Iíve centered it a bit more here.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
I thought the mellowness of Paul's guitar was about perfect. Chris's might need a little more presence.


I tweaked Chrisí guitar a little with some re-amping for a little more grit, which actually leads us to your next comment:

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
I *think* the keys could lose some lo-mids.


I really used the synth in an almost subconscious level, during the chorus only. My intent was that you wouldnít truly notice it as an independent thing, but you would notice it by its absence when it cuts out at the second verse. I think I achieved that. I think that in the first mix, the higher notes of the synth part stood out nicely, but with the increased push on Chrisí rhythm part in this second mix, the higher synth notes are a little buried Ė but I couldnít boost them without messing up the subconscious deal I was going for. A coin toss, both parts are excellent.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Sisk:
The backup vox was a another thought I forgot to mention. I put a really thick chorus and a darker reverb on the backup vox, as well as taking a little of the highs out...the goal being to make it sound like more than one backup vocal.


Like I said in discussing mix number one, I created a little choir of Fils by placing multiple tracks of each take available, panning them about and modulating a little time offset for some natural phasing. I felt the chorus effect on your (Daveís) vocal mix was mushing things up, and really affecting the clarity.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
Bill's mix:
I like what you did with Chris' rhythm track. Its got a nice jangliness but retains some balls.


Well, I tweaked it a little bit, and hopefully it still has those qualities.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
I like the way you crescendo'd the lead guitar from the thin clean in the beginning to the heavier at the end. One thought I had was to make a dynamic statement by cutting out all the drums but the kick during the really clean first solo. I don't know how it would affect the continuity of the song though... I think the first solo should probably be fattened up just a touch. Too bad the lead playing was so sloppy. The player must've been really tired from having a new baby in the house or something.


Believe me, I tried a lot of variations on lead guitar stuff. Trying to re-amp those clean lines was too drastic in my opinion, and didnít sound ďof a pieceĒ with the other guitar work. It felt phony, where with Chrisí rhythm part, it was the same statement with more attitude.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
The lead vox are good but the effects seem to be a bit inconcistent. Maybe a little less reverb/delay?


Like I said in reply to Dave, the first mix had some radical panning, which Iíve centered a bit more here.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
The accoustic guitar seemed a bit too forward for my taste during the verse. I just didn't feel it blending into the pad.


Iím actually using the acoustic as the harmonic focus during the verses Ė there is no pad. I wanted contrast with the chorus (see my notes above on placing the synth part), and Chrisí part was a little sparse by itself. I used the organ only during the solo, to add a new element and to set off a little more variation.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
I like the ending.


That was using the multiple tracks of Fil to set up a call and response deal. If you listen closely in headphones, you might pick out how the word ďtogetherĒ goes back and forth in the panning, gradually coming together in the center just around the time the fade disappears I hope.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
Bill, as far as I'm concerned, you can be as creative with my tracks as you'd like. I have no perceptions of grandeur and just want the tune to sound its best.


Youíll notice I went nuts with the digital razor blade for mix 2 here. Hopefully the 8 bar solo has some continuity Ė I used only three phrases. The center 6 bars or so of the solo is one phrase from your original takes, the first phrase and the last phrase are from elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
For my part, when I first heard the song, I got a real "Grateful Dead Franklin's Tower" feel for what the backing should be. That's what I tried to impart with the two chord rhythm part I did on top of the four chord changes. I still kinda like it but I also like what Bill did with Chris' original rhythm track. I don't know. :shrug:


I found Chrisí part to be very spare and open, and let me use other elements to define the arrangement, instead of a wall-to-wall guitar exposition.

Quote:
Originally posted by PBBPaul:
Any more thoughts?


I donít think so. Since Offramp seems to be developing a variation on the chart, I donít know what else I can do from here with the original takes. If any consensus develops that this mix is the best we can do, I think I might shave a little off the overheads, but thatís about it.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942141 10/03/05 11:39 AM
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Billster Offline
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Hey Offramp, I can't get your mix as of this morning. Did you you pull it off the web?

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942142 10/03/05 12:25 PM
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offramp Offline
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Oh, batshit....sorry. No, I realized last night that the original location was in a Public folder, downloadable from my website, and didn't want that availability, so I moved it. Just forgot to fix the link.
You will find it
HERE


Hope you like it. Some caveats apply; I'll get to those later. Right now, I need to go to work.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942143 10/03/05 03:03 PM
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Billster Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by offramp:
Oh, batshit....sorry. No, I realized last night that the original location was in a Public folder, downloadable from my website, and didn't want that availability, so I moved it. Just forgot to fix the link.
You will find it
HERE

Hope you like it. Some caveats apply; I'll get to those later. Right now, I need to go to work.
Uh, still a 404. \:\(

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942144 10/03/05 03:43 PM
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Chris Kemp Offline
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Thanks for noticing my guitar work, Bill. ;\) I took a very sparse approach on purpose - I felt a bit more syncopation originally, but I found that it just stepped all over everything, and I just backed off until I was hitting only those accents that became the part I submitted.

Also, I wanted to leave room for others - remember, I was probably the first instrument to overdub to the original track (before drums, even!) so taking up all the space would have just screwed it up for everyone. I'm actually proud of my abilities in this area, because a LOT of guitarists (& others) don't appreciate that less-is-more approach. It's allowed me to fit into 2- and 3-guitar situations without it coming off like a huge wank-fest.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942145 10/03/05 07:06 PM
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offramp Offline
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dammit! I hate typing in these long strings for links

THIS HAD BETTER WORK

It did for me, just now on IE at work.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942146 10/03/05 07:40 PM
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Billster Offline
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Offy! A very different take I treated the track as riff based (bassed? ;\) ) number, and you took it into a more keyboard oriented direction. Nice. I know you're talking about caveats and tweaks, but the general idea comes through.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942147 10/03/05 08:02 PM
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Gruuve Offline
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Hey guys:

OK, I'm dumping Bill's new mix and Offramp's mix to my MP3 player as I speak..er..uh..type. I'll listen on the way to pick up my daughter up from daycare.

Btw, I'm going to be out of town Oct 5-12, and probably won't have access to a PC, so I doubt you'll see any posts from me. Proceed, and I'll join back in as soon as I get back...

Thx,
Dave


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- Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006

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Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942148 10/04/05 12:26 PM
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PBBPaul Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by offramp:
dammit! I hate typing in these long strings for links

THIS HAD BETTER WORK

It did for me, just now on IE at work.
Got a chance to listen this morning. Very different and very cool! Let me know if you want me to track something appropriate.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942149 10/04/05 01:11 PM
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David Holloway Offline OP
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Quote:
Originally posted by offramp:
dammit! I hate typing in these long strings for links

THIS HAD BETTER WORK

It did for me, just now on IE at work.
Being a keys person i gotta say this is my fave of the mixes. And offramp, there's nothing I could add to the cool keys you've done

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942150 10/04/05 01:26 PM
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offramp Offline
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(oops...simultaneous posting...this one is response to PBBPaul...)

Okay, I'll slip into the producer's chair for a bit. Some ideas on that, then...

Do not print reverb. Please. Make it as dry as a popcorn fart.

Watch your levels. The electric rhythm track you sent clipped about 75% of the time.

At the moment--'cause I'm at work, and I can't sit in front of the tune and concentrate--let's try the guitar parts (the current ones I tracked on my mix) doubled on acoustic, and only on the chorus...leave the verses silent. They're really simple, 'cause I'm a really simple guitarist. Towards the end, instead of 'frantic folkie' strumming, let's try a simple 1/8 note strum pattern, kinda tight and keep with the funk feel of the tune. Tonight, I'll send you a mix similar to that which I sent Christopher Robin, so you can hear more space to work with.
When you track your acoustic, if you could make it just a smidgeon louder than the last track, that would be helpful. It's a great tone you've got on that.
For what I'm hearing this mix developing as, I like Christopher Robin's electric sound and your acoustic sound.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942151 10/04/05 01:28 PM
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nursers, don't be too hasty on that. When I get home tonight, I'll send you the chords I played. I love the patch you originally had; when I played my patch along with yours, they're actually quite complimentary, and I like to believe there's still room for it. Yours has an echo, for example, that mine doesn't. As well, yours has a much more analogue sound than mine...the difference is small, but it's enough.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942152 10/04/05 01:41 PM
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David Holloway Offline OP
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Ok cool - look forward to seeing the chords

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942153 10/04/05 05:07 PM
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Gruuve Offline
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Cool work guys...all of you. Man, I like different things in each of the different mixes. Offramp, I really looking forward to hearing a more polished version of your interpretation...that has an interesting twist. I still need to listen to it some more...so used to hearing it with the original arrangement. I'll check in when I get back next week.

L8r,
Dave


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Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942154 10/04/05 06:29 PM
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PBBPaul Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by offramp:
(oops...simultaneous posting...this one is response to PBBPaul...)

Okay, I'll slip into the producer's chair for a bit. Some ideas on that, then...

Do not print reverb. Please. Make it as dry as a popcorn fart.

Watch your levels. The electric rhythm track you sent clipped about 75% of the time.

At the moment--'cause I'm at work, and I can't sit in front of the tune and concentrate--let's try the guitar parts (the current ones I tracked on my mix) doubled on acoustic, and only on the chorus...leave the verses silent. They're really simple, 'cause I'm a really simple guitarist. Towards the end, instead of 'frantic folkie' strumming, let's try a simple 1/8 note strum pattern, kinda tight and keep with the funk feel of the tune. Tonight, I'll send you a mix similar to that which I sent Christopher Robin, so you can hear more space to work with.
When you track your acoustic, if you could make it just a smidgeon louder than the last track, that would be helpful. It's a great tone you've got on that.
For what I'm hearing this mix developing as, I like Christopher Robin's electric sound and your acoustic sound.
Cool...

I've got a busy week but should be able to find some studio time by the weekend.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942155 10/05/05 02:47 AM
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Sorry. Wife and I went out for dinner tonight, got to laughing with the chef/owner about the movie "Raising Arizona", laughing so hard we had to rent it and watch it again.

So...doing custom mixes for Mssrs. Holloway and Paul at the moment. Loinks will be posted soon.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942156 10/05/05 03:27 AM
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offramp Offline
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Dave Holloway: go HERE for your mix.
PM for chords.

PBBPaul: go HERE for yours.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942157 10/05/05 03:40 AM
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Chris Kemp Offline
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offramp - got it into the DAW & played with it a bit. Pretty cool - much nicer mix, I can hear your work much better now.

So, you want me to basically do what you're doing? I can do that, as well as a little extra maybe to give you something to work with. Playing along with your track I found myself playing off of your guitar - maybe it's cool, maybe not...but no big thing for me to lay it down & send it.

Tonight I was just going direct & using a couple of plugins, which wasn't bad - but I'm hearing that you want me to do what I did last time, with the amp? Not a problem - I can go either way, give you something to re-amp if you like. (I was trying out a VST called Rednef Twin, which sounded surprisingly good for a freebie, as well as the Voxengo Tube Amp, which was OK.)

If you got a moment I can give you a call & talk - PM me with a number.

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942158 10/05/05 03:57 AM
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Try doing what I did, with a little extra, here and there. Not a whole lot. I keep thinking Boon Gould (Level 42) or Dominic Miller. Maybe a smidge of Andy Summers.

One of the things I noticed on the original tracks you sent wa an occasional tendency to hit the 7th...which, in the original arrangement, worked. In mine, tho, it doesn't.
I don't want to be in the position of 'dictating' a players' parts, y'know? Every step I take in that direction is a step away from 'collaboration'. I do, however, hear certain things. I don't know how to happily balance the two.

As for the sound: Hey...my demo sound, here, is a POD, with one half through an amp and the other direct. Hell, if it's all the same to you, do a track with all amp and again with all direct. Dunno. I can't hear your plug-ins. Hit me with your best.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942159 10/05/05 03:59 AM
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offramp Offline
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Sorry....didn't mean to be rude...quite tired at this point. We'll try the phone after tomorrow...it's my wedding anniversary, and we'll be occupied.


I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942160 10/05/05 10:22 AM
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Happy Anniversary!

Re: Rebuild - Music composition / recording #942161 10/05/05 01:41 PM
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Chris Kemp Offline
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Were you rude? I missed it.

Happy Anniversary! Don't spend it talking to us.

BTW - send me those chord changes you have in mind too, just so we are thinking in the same space.

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