Nawor Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I just saw the 'live' video of 'Beautiful'. If there's NO Autotune on this one then I'll bare my ass. Live?... Can anybody cut the mustard anymore? :confused: "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 "Live?... Can anybody cut the mustard anymore?" Not really. Did you hear Averil Levign on the Grammyes? I firmly believe it takes years of playing late nights in run-down bars for little to no money in order to put on a great live performance. Alot of new artists go straight form their bedroom to a stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawor Posted March 9, 2003 Author Share Posted March 9, 2003 Yep... heard her... YEEEECH!! The problem is the quick buck syndrome. Record companies want 'sizzle' over 'sausage'. It's easier to manufacture a 'product' than spend time nurturing one. I think very few of the popular 'artists' have served much of an apprenticeship as musicians. Norah Jones being one of the exceptions in recent times. "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Don't know about "Beautiful", but having worked with Christina I can say there is no need for autotune with her. Not only does she have great pitch but she also works her ass off in the studio and is a complete perfectionist. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rowan: [b] I think very few of the popular 'artists' have served much of an apprenticeship as musicians. [/b][/quote]How could they? They all became huge at 15! More like On-the-job-training! Still, I do have a hard time believing that Christine was Autotuned. Yeah, she has ridden in on the Britney/lolita-schoolgirl-craze, but she's obviously got the pipes to have gotten the gig with or without the body. She'll be the only one we'll still remember once this teen-pop thing dies off (which it is rapidly doing). Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I'd do her. :freak: So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gato Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Christine Aguilera - "Sing?" :freak: :rolleyes: :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Christina certainly CAN sing (I enjoyed that song, Beautiful), no doubt about that, but alot of new artists are not very polished in their live performances, and can especially grow weary and get sloppy during long touring stints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWBass Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Believe me, she's one of the few who CAN sing her ass off! The only way I could see a need for autotune would be if she couldn't hear herself in her monitors or something! www.myspace.com/thefunkfather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNC Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 "The only way I could see a need for autotune would be if she couldn't hear herself in her monitors or something!" Very true. Not directed at Christina, but alot of inexperienced performers are not quite capable of dealing with such situaitons easily. I'm sure many of you have had things like bad monitors/mikes/mixes etc go wrong during a gig, but with enough live experience, it doesn't really faze you much. Its this kind of flexibility during imperfect circumstances that it takes time and alot of performances to aquire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halljams Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I did her! Check out SUPERVIBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by robmix: [b]Don't know about "Beautiful", but having worked with Christina I can say there is no need for autotune with her. Not only does she have great pitch but she also works her ass off in the studio and is a complete perfectionist. Rob[/b][/quote]Listen to when she says the word "down," as well as in a few other parts. It is light autotuning. I wonder if she really needed it, or if it was done out of stupidity. I'll vote for the later. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by G(Jazzbo)T3: [b] [quote][/b][/quote]Listen to when she says the word "down," as well as in a few other parts. It is light autotuning. I wonder if she really needed it, or if it was done out of stupidity. I'll vote for the later.[/QB][/quote]That could certainly be the case. Some engineers good idea of "fixing" something that probably didn't need to be fixed when she wasn't around. I haven't seen the live video you're speaking of. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uh Clem Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by KHAN: [b]I'd do her. :freak: [/b][/quote]Yep, she can spit on my mic any day. :thu: Steve Powell - Bull Moon Digital www.bullmoondigital.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawor Posted March 10, 2003 Author Share Posted March 10, 2003 Stating that something is 'live' IMO means you get the performance as it was recorded. Sure there's always going to be some post production, but if it involves fundementally changing the performance into something it never was then is that acceptable, or, are we being conned? :confused: Just how much Autotune is acceptable? That fact that Norah Jones' vocals are distorted in several places on 'Come Away with Me' didn't seem to bother many people. I was rather critical of this in a thread on George Massenburgs forum. As it turned out this apparently occured during live demo takes which ultimately wound up on the album. Still IMO it's a great album and this is probably a case of choosing performance over perfection. That fact than it won a swag of Grammys doesn't change the distortion any. Though from some peoples responses you'd think otherwise! ;) "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Most "live" shows that are released on DVD or video are fixed and overdubbed on in this day and age. If you're an artist who's livelihood depends on sales why would you not correct a bad performance ? I couldn't release something that had mistakes on it. I've worked on several VH1 storytellers and in almost every case the artist would come in during the mixes to pick the best performance (yes they do several takes of each song) and also fix any blaring mistakes. In more than a few cases the tapes went out to a Pro Tools guy to be tuned. That's just the reality we live in. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoeditor1 Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by robmix: [b]Most "live" shows that are released on DVD or video are fixed and overdubbed on in this day and age.[/b][/quote]I did production on a (my 1st) "live album" almost 8 (10?) yrs ago, I was (as usual doing the FOH mix) they had trucks parke outside. My FOH DAT stereo recording is distinctly different rfom the album release. Every one I've done since then has had major tweaks, re-triggering, overdubbing, new parts that are not on my DAT's, new friggin background singers etc etc. Who here is gonna bitch about this? Most of the people (general statement) on these forums are trying to get 64 tracks out of Reason/SOnar/Logic/ProTools - and most are NOT recording orchestras. How many of us can faithfully replicate what we do on our DAW's live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel E. Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Here's how I see it. I'm sure many of you will disagree: Great records were made for some 70 years before digital pitch correction existed. Aretha Franklin didn't use pitch correction. Neither did Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, the Supremes, Marvin Gaye, Billie Holliday or Elvis. Basically, if you are a vocalist singing a style of music that require you to be "good" and you need pitch correction, you shouldn't be making records. If you are playing country, rock, blues or some other genre that does not require pitch accuracy and you use autotune, you are missing the point entirely and shouldn't be making records. As for Christina Aguilera, she's a "talented" singer with a powerful voice and she probably has good pitch control. She'll be a "good" singer when she finally lays off the belting and learns subtlety and dynamics. Right now she's just masturbating. "You never can vouch for your own consciousness." - Norman Mailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawor Posted March 11, 2003 Author Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by robmix: [b]... That's just the reality we live in. Rob[/b][/quote]Er... the [i]real[/i] part of "reality" doesn't apply to the so called 'live' performance if it ain't! ;) I think the problem is that the majority of artists today are so 'manicured' in terms of both video and audio production techniques that their 'live' offerings can almost never be reproduced to the same standard without many of the same techniques, be it autotune, recutting of tracks etc. I know that overdubbing and track replacement has been used on 'live' albums for years... but does that make it right? What even constitutes a 'live' album anyway? It seems to me we are almost accepting that wheeling some drug fucked, silicone implanted bimbo onto stage and have them mime to a sequencer qualifies as a 'live' performance? So I guess as long as they're on stage... and NOT DEAD... that's a LIVE performance? :confused: I'm not accusing Aguilera of this... the video I saw was much more subtle, however if record companies keep pushing the envelope we are not that far from computer generated pop stars (read Final Fantasy) that will make them millions and NEVER have a breakdown or a 'hissy fit'! ;) "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Rowan, it's easy to forget that this is the [i]entertainment[/i] industry! Yes, music is an artform. But these people are entertainers, first and foremost. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoeditor1 Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by G(Jazzbo)T3: [b]Rowan, it's easy to forget that this is the [i]entertainment[/i] industry! Yes, music is an artform. But these people are entertainers, first and foremost.[/b][/quote]Also, the target for what music has never been fixed. Anybody remember when the piano was looked down on? Ok, just kidding. I meant the 'letric guitar, then synths, then drum machines, then samplers, then autotune etc etc. It's evolution baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawor Posted March 11, 2003 Author Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b] [quote]Originally posted by G(Jazzbo)T3: [b]Rowan, it's easy to forget that this is the [i]entertainment[/i] industry! Yes, music is an artform. But these people are entertainers, first and foremost.[/b][/quote]Also, the target for what music has never been fixed. Anybody remember when the piano was looked down on? Ok, just kidding. I meant the 'letric guitar, then synths, then drum machines, then samplers, then autotune etc etc. It's evolution baby.[/b][/quote]Well fuck people then... bring on the 'virtual' COMPLETELY DIGITAL pop star and we can all go home and watch the grass grow! ;) "WARNING!" - this artificial fruit juice may contain traces of REAL FRUIT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmix Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rowan: [b] [quote]Originally posted by robmix: [b]... That's just the reality we live in. Rob[/b][/quote]Er... the [i]real[/i] part of "reality" doesn't apply to the so called 'live' performance if it ain't! ;) I think the problem is that the majority of artists today are so 'manicured' in terms of both video and audio production techniques that their 'live' offerings can almost never be reproduced to the same standard without many of the same techniques, be it autotune, recutting of tracks etc. I know that overdubbing and track replacement has been used on 'live' albums for years... but does that make it right? What even constitutes a 'live' album anyway? It seems to me we are almost accepting that wheeling some drug fucked, silicone implanted bimbo onto stage and have them mime to a sequencer qualifies as a 'live' performance? So I guess as long as they're on stage... and NOT DEAD... that's a LIVE performance? :confused: I'm not accusing Aguilera of this... the video I saw was much more subtle, however if record companies keep pushing the envelope we are not that far from computer generated pop stars (read Final Fantasy) that will make them millions and NEVER have a breakdown or a 'hissy fit'! ;) [/b][/quote]That's not entirely true, and is not the main reason that people make the fixes. It could be an off night, lack of sleep, lack of preparation, a cold, or just a simple mistake that no matter how many times you've performed is bound to come up. Now if you're about to release a video of that performance wouldn't you fix it ? Like comping, tuning, and even mutlitracking, fixing "live" records is just one of those things that isn't going away. And yes, I do agree with you about the computer generated "digital" artists. We can't be that far away from Lara Croft releasing a record. Rob Rob Hoffman http://www.robmixmusic.com Los Angeles, CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by robmix: [b] I've worked on several VH1 storytellers and in almost every case the artist would come in during the mixes to pick the best performance (yes they do several takes of each song) and also fix any blaring mistakes. In more than a few cases the tapes went out to a Pro Tools guy to be tuned. That's just the reality we live in. [/b][/quote]That Storytellers with Willy Nelson and Johnny Cash certainly had more than a few mistakes in it (This is from a few years ago, so you may not know what I'm talking about -or then again, you might). Johnny was having a tough time keeping up with Willy. I love them both though! I'm glad they didn't Pro-Tools that one... Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by halljams: [b]I did her![/b][/quote]oooooooh! Dude, if you are lying about this, I will hunt you down RAMBO-style... Lord give me strength... :love: :love: :love: [img]http://www.deansplanet.com/christina/christina_nude_04.jpg[/img] Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addix Metzatricity Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b]How many of us can faithfully replicate what we do on our DAW's live?[/b][/quote]Hey, some of us can't even PLAY what we do on our DAWs!! Some of us = me. "Bass isn't just for breakfast anymore..." http://www.mp3.com/Addix_Metzatricity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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