BNC Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Should there be a constraints on how many musicians are used for broadway shows? Or, should each production company be free to use as many as they want? Is the musician strike justified in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Tyler Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 "Karaoke" Broadway? You betcha! These days, less and less folks give a flying fuck about "performance" anyway. Go Local 802!!!!!. Stick it to the producers! HOOOOAH!!! [img]http://www.jeffpylenz.com/INCREDIMAIL%20VOL.2/DAILY/smileystooges.gif[/img] [quote]Originally posted by BNC: [b]Should there be a constraints on how many musicians are used for broadway shows? Or, should each production company be free to use as many as they want? Is the musician strike justified in your opinion?[/b][/quote] Joe Pine (60's talk show host who sported a wooden leg) to Frank Zappa -- "So, with your long hair, I guess that makes you a woman." Frank Zappa's response -- "So, with your wooden leg, I guess that makes you a table." http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2001&alid=-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 If some people can organize their money to negotiate for labor, why can't other's organize their labor to negotiate for money. I think they are within their rights. I also think that live performances of plays and dance that don't feature live musicians are inferior. I remember going to see the Alvin Ailey dance troupe in Boston at a nice theater and they danced to canned music. Someone might say it is the dance that's important, but I think it's about the marriage of dance to music performed live. I felt ripped off. I like recorded music, but recorded music is the aesthetic equivalent to fast food, no matter how good the music is. It lacks the acoustic spaciousness that real musicians make and it's consistent repetitive qualitiy reduces its interest after repeated listenings. Also, the communciation of live musicians playing for the audience and the audience responding to musicians, not sample playing button pushers, can't be duplicated electronically. Live theater is not the same as film, and sample playing button pushers make live theater less lively. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I think the audience is being cheated. The theater should continue to uphold the tradition of real live musicians performing. We're losing ground and there isn't much ground left. My grandfather performed on Broadway when they had full orchestras so I've been hearing about the decline of support for musicians from my father for my whole life. I gotta take the musicians side. I thought Disney and big corporations own all of Times Square now. If they can't support a few musicians who else can. They can afford it. :mad: Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 i'm against the strike. that whole broadway union thing sucks. (and that includes stagehands, electricians, etc.) british theatre is not as encumbered by such nonsense, hence the better quality AND much cheaper ticket prices. the broadway music folks get paid decent money and have a steady gig. quit complaining. most bar band/club folks would give their left nut to make the kind of money a pit band person makes. -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groucho Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Well....I basically diagree profoundly with everthing D Gauss sez :D What "British theatre" is or is not encumbered by, is a large group of variables and to pick ONE out and claim it explains everything is not a ruse anybody with 2 lobes in their head will buy. "quit complaining"? The day your typical "bar band" guy can read a score on the fly that he has never heard, and play it in a different key than written you can tell me about it :p Classic Maggie Thatcher B.S. mate! Expect fellow working people to resent a guy making more and want to drag him down...Rather than address the REAL question of why aren't you (as the bar guy for instance)making more :confused: Those guys in the pits are top gun players, and this is about who gets to dictate the quality of the theater experience for everyone - why do you think the actors and stagehands are in SOLIDARITY with this action? Do you believe for one second that canned music will drop the ticket prices rather than go into the producers pocket? I work for Mickey Rat (AKA Disney) and I can tell you than despite "special" contracts levered from the theater world (stagehands,techs, etc) in Times Square - the tickets cost just as much for a Disney production as any other on Broadway. I am a member of Local 16 NYC NABET which represents the tech/production people of ABC Television, so I have a definite partisan thing going here :D if it ain't broke don't fix it... unless you need the overtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by BNC: [b]Should there be a constraints on how many musicians are used for broadway shows? Or, should each production company be free to use as many as they want? [/b][/quote]Constraints, is that what it's about???? Should there be constraints??? They should be allowed to use as many as they want. The musicians should be allowed to act as a group if they like as well. If anyone here would favor NOT using musicians over canned music is utterly absurd. This is the trend of the future, the further reduction of value of MUSIC, and we had better ALL fight against that every chance we get, EVERY chance. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I am 100% behind the musicians. I guarantee you that even if they used canned music, prices would not go down. It would just be more money in the opockets of the producers of the show. Just look at CD's. Cheaper to make, ship and store. But more expensive. Live musicians on broadway is something that needs to be kept alive. Period. Otherwise you will see live music gradually dissappearing alltogether. and in 100 years another artform will dissappear. IMDB Credit list President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 ok, let me put it another way.... first off, i am not in favor of canned music, let's be real. however, there are plenty of top flight musicians in NYC struggling to make ends meet. by comparison, the broadway folks are lucky. no, maybe the dive bar musicians can't sight read a score, but i'm not sure that's the issue here. my point is that the broadway guys/girls haven't been replaced by canned music yet and they actually should be thankful that they have a decent gig that ensures them a decent wage. that's heads above most musicians out there. plus the whole union thing tends to get hostile. consider this: i know a guy who is in the band for a fairly popular off broadway show about a certain dead chick rock singer. they are not union musicians. since the strike, the band basically got attacked by picketers as they went to work. how lame is that? -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan South Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 London theatre is better and cheaper because it's subsidized, so it doesn't have to make a zillion bucks a night - that's .65 zillion pounds. ;) London theatre doesn't have to dazzle audiences with special effects. The strike isn't about replacing musicians with pre-recorded tracks. It's about the stupid minimums that the union demands. If you put on a show with a rock and roll score, do you really need twenty-six musicians in the pit? I would think that six or seven good ones would do nicely. The Black Knight always triumphs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 thank you dan! my point exactly. :) -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanThomas Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by BNC: [b]Is the musician strike justified in your opinion?[/b][/quote]Of course it's justified. Strikes are simply a form of contract negotiation. If you object to an employment contract being proposed to you, you refuse to sign it. The theatre's union (yeah they have a union too, the [i]League of American Theatres and Producers[/i] signed contracts with AFM Local 802 which, among other things, stated the minimum numbers of musicians that they were required to hire based on the size of the venue. That contract expired on March 2 and the theatres want that part of any new contract changed to reduce the minimum numbers. The AFM wants it to remain the same. Since the contract expired, there is no exisiting agreement between the AFM and the LATP. The musicians are not required to work for venues that don't have contracts with their union. In fact, the contract that musicians sign when they join the union forbids them to work for employers that don't have agreements with the AFM (of course many do, they're called "black dates" or "black gigs"). The theatres could of course hire non-union ("scab") musicians to cross picket lines & work the shows anyway ("strike busting"). However, some of the other unionized groups that work theatres will not cross the AFM picket lines (they'd expect the same from AFM members if their union went on strike). They could also shut down operations (a "lock out") to put pressure on the musicians. The AFM beat them to the punch though (no point locking out people that refuse to come in!). Anyway, of course their strike is justified. They have an objection to a contract. They cannot be forced to sign it nor to work without it. That is most certainly "just". Now, does their strike make sense? Is what they want reasonable? Subjects for another thread... Signatures can appear at the bottom of your posts. This option may be disabled by the message board administrators at any time, however. You may use UBB Code in your signature, but not HTML. UBB Code Images are permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Random thoughts: If I've read one thread about embarassing "live" performances that are really canned Milli Vanilli ( 2 words - Britney Spears), I've read a hundred. And I couldn't agree more I personally think it's disappointing that the Disneys, Shuberts, Nederlanders et.al. have decided that they need to take their cues from dinner theater producers. This is supposed to be live performance sine qua non, not karaoke, as was previously suggested. NYC offers some very attractive tax incentives to the theaters. And the entire Times Square redevelopment project has amounted to a huge transfer of capital from NYC to the House that Mickey built. There's a lot of public money and "condemned" property in the mouse's till. Perhaps that should be re-thought if saving jobs on B'way is no longer being supported At $100 a seat, I really don't want the CD singalong. I can walk across the street to Virgin, and get it for $15. Or in some cases, the DVD for $25. Hey, there's an idea. Why don't we replace the actors with a screening of a top performance. You could save a ton, and even take this on the road around the country, in theaters. Oh wait - isn't that called a movie? In a past life, I used to musical direct at some suburban NYC dinner theaters. And I have some friends in the B'way pits. I've got to tell you, keeping the performance together when the dance moves zap the performers out of sequence is an essential skill for this line of performance. No computer can handle the task as well as a real, thinking orchestra led by a capable director. Sorry about the ramble. For the most part, I'm preaching to the choir. But I am offended by cheapening the Broadway experience, when it will have no impact on affordability. It's just plain piggish. A one pound can of coffee used to weigh more than 13 ounces, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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