Prog keyboardists

[tenthplanet]

OK,I know I am going to take flack for this....

I've been listening to some of the newer prog keyboardists and while some of them are fleet fingered; the music they're making leaves me cold.

Let me try to explain. No one seems to taking the music anywhere.

This is kind of strange considering guitar driven bands seem to be able to absorb older prog influences and move on with it. I'll cite newer Tool and Primus as an example, these guys have heard the old records (hint: old King Crimson) and moved on.

Most of the older prog rockers that still turn out albums or have within the last few years don't stand still. Where are the bands to pick up the torch vs. looking at it.

I don't think the keyboarders to do this are non-existent. They're just in jazz,electronic, and electronic dance music,and of course the conservatory.

Where are the guys that would make Wakeman or Emerson go "wow, I wish I had thought of that."

 

Michael

[Zeke Smith.]

I think there are a couple of them currently. Jordan Ruddess comes to mind as probably the leader of the prog-rock keyboard troupe.

 

Unfortunately, one of the things prog keyboardists have a hard time learning is restraint, and I'll be heretical and use Rick Wakeman as an example. They have a hard time shutting up and playing 3 notes in a bar rather than 47,691. This limits their usefulness in bands that write songs for commercial release. It's also the same reason that there aren't many guitarists like Yngwie Malmsteem, Joe Satriani, and Eric Johnson. With ever-shorter attention spans and an emphasis on hooks in music, there's just not much place for 'em.

 

Heck, even Jordan Ruddess has a hard time staying in the song on occasion. Don't get me wrong, I love prog rock, but I can see how it's a very lonely place.

[progfusion74]

I would disagree. Prog rock is among the few arenas today where keyboard players have roles, and its not only soloing, but also textures and arrangements. Rudess is inspirational to me,as are many others (Tomas Bodin, etc). There are of course many who just copy the greats and are little more than speed freaks, but thats true of all musical styles.

[Zeke Smith.]

Point taken, and you did kind of expose the one-sidedness of my prior post. I believe that there is a perception allied with that one-sidedness in the musical world at large of what I described above regarding prog keyboardists, and perception unfortunately and often incorrectly is equated with reality by some.

 

In prog music, the keyboard player stands generally equal with the guitar player, which is unheard of elsewhere. In other music, especially pop, R&B and dance, the keyboards play more of a supporting role, a role which can be also programmed by a guy in his basement with Logic and some modules and VI's. In mainstream rock, there has been a violent reaction to the 80's keyboard mania in general and to its use or overuse in the other styles mentioned above. Which leaves prog keys in a very lonely place, where there's little money, few appreciative performance venues, barely any acclaim outside the prog community, and general obscurity. No one would ever enter this field except the very committed. Which I think helps to explain the relative small number of prog bands in general, at least in this country, and prog keyboardists.

 

Interestingly, my current gig is supporting a Spanish pop singer who is (hopefully!) up and coming in the NYC area. A lot of the rules of "American" popular music are not at play in this gig, and it allows me to drag out a little more of my prog upbringing and play a more equal role in the band. It's been unique, and kind of fun. I'd love to be in a prog band again, but I'd never make any money, and that's a primary concern which pre-empts my love of the music.

[phestic]

I play keyboards in a modern rock band and I have found that there are times to shine and times to sit back and use 2 or 3 fingers and fake like your using all of your other fingers so you dont look stupid on stage ;-) but after all is done and said you fill the song in and give it its modern edge that seperates it from the rest of the oh so common rock bands out in this world.

 

I find that I use straight up mono-synths with a nice filter and reso that I modulate for those fast paced songs and maby a bit of distortion on my piano sometimes. But you really need to be a band that is willing to experament with a new sound and let the keyboard player have as much say as the guitarist while not adding a ton of delay and reverb making the song sound all noisy.

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by tenthplanet:

OK,I know I am going to take flack for this....

I've been listening to some of the newer prog keyboardists and while some of them are fleet fingered; the music they're making leaves me cold.

Let me try to explain. No one seems to taking the music anywhere.

I would like to see the names of those current prog bands that disappointed you, Michael. Can you list them? Just curious...

 

Originally posted by tenthplanet:

This is kind of strange considering guitar driven bands seem to be able to absorb older prog influences and move on with it. I'll cite newer Tool and Primus as an example, these guys have heard the old records (hint: old King Crimson) and moved on.

I honestly have a hard time to call these two (Tool and Primus) as prog bands. In my book they play alternative metal (and quite advanced one) though that's not prog, imho.

 

Originally posted by tenthplanet:

Most of the older prog rockers that still turn out albums or have within the last few years don't stand still. Where are the bands to pick up the torch vs. looking at it.

 

Let me wholeheartedly disagree with you here.

Personally I'm quite disappointed with the majority of the latest works by the older masters. The albums by (some, not all of course) newer (and cool!) prog bands are the ones I'm most satisfied with.

 

Originally posted by tenthplanet:

I don't think the keyboarders to do this are non-existent. They're just in jazz,electronic, and electronic dance music,and of course the conservatory.

Where are the guys that would make Wakeman or Emerson go "wow, I wish I had thought of that."

 

Michael

Are you familiar with the music of Chroma Key, OSI, Ozric Tentacles, Spock's Beard, Transatlantic,... and the likes? If "yes" and you still find them to be not that interesting and fresh then we just have very different taste in music. That would explain it all!

[coyote]

Everyone has, and indeed can have, their own opinion on prog (or anything else for that matter). It's a beautiful thing.

 

What cracks me up is when people confuse their own musical taste with "good music" as in "genre A is bad music because blahblahblah; genre B is good because yadayadayada". All any music has to do is appeal to you in some way or other. It scarcely matters whether there's technical proficiency or pop song structure or long/short/no solos. There's some Nirvana that moves me as much as some Yes, and there are a few rap tunes which are awesome. I have seen Rudess live, and he was quite good! His records don't connect with me. So if he blows you away, you're right! And if he leaves you cold, you're also right.

[RudyS]

Originally posted by coyote:

What cracks me up is when people confuse their own musical taste with "good music" as in "genre A is bad music because blahblahblah; genre B is good because yadayadayada".

i totally agree. I am not a fan of dance music, but when someone let me listen to "moby" and the "chemical brothers" i thought; 'He, this is not bad".

 

for the prog. I don't agree with tenthplanet. I think the keyboardist do really nice things nowadays, even without usin 87739872 notes in a bar. Just listen to spocks beard for example.

Ohter nice example is the music from Derek Sherinian with Planet X. also not only furious solo's but real (complex) music that really rocks.

[Krakit]

I'll tell you what I'd like to do.

 

Someone (preferably a fan) of the "new-breed" of Progressive Rock keyboardists, please post a few links to their favorite tunes/solos.

 

As a keyboardist who himself has made Progressive Rock his musical direction, I will give a fair and detail critique of what I hear.

 

I want to give you my opinion, and although I already have an opinion on some late Progressive bands (weather good or bad, I'll keep to myself for now )I'll form fresh ones based on what I hear.

 

Please point me to some samples of the best keyboard performances on the internet and I promise to listen to them all and review each individually.

 

Thanks,

Carl

[Prague]

For one thing, it's great that we have a New Prog scene to critique! I have been disappointed that there really aren't any new "household name" keyboardists. Everyone seems to know the Wakeman/Emerson names. To their great credit, they've been the generic names for 25 years.

 

Perhaps keyboardists need to re-establish themselves by simply playing keys without 50-layer sounds and arpeggiators. "Roots-Prog", or something.

 

I, too, would like to listen and critique all samples like Krakit wants to do.

 

By the way Krakit, move to Seattle so I can enslave you in my AllProg-AlltheTime band!

[Krakit]

Would that I could, Paostby.

 

My head has been firmly affixed to Progressive Rock since the 70's and even though Fusion turned it for a second or two, I'm still a dyed in the wool "Progger".

 

At the moment, I'm looking to put together a duet. Just me and percussion. Still looking for the right skin beater.

 

Carl

[Tusker]

Originally posted by paostby:

Perhaps keyboardists need to re-establish themselves by simply playing keys without 50-layer sounds and arpeggiators. "Roots-Prog", or something.

Good idea. Even though prog takes real work to perform, it's sometimes dismissed as 'fake'. It's a question of how much contrivance to burden the audience with, and how much rawness. Many prog bands distance themselves from the audience (eschewing emotional honesty in favor of epic bombast for example). All of this distance when combined, works against one, methinks.

 

Jerry

 

PS: I'd like to hear of favorite neo-prog songs too. Are there "hits" we should be aware of?

[Steve LeBlanc]

this thread is bs

 

[Odyssian]

Hi Tusker, check out the band "IQ". They've been around for quite awhile, but I really enjoy them.

 

They remind me of Genesis at times. That's in terms of the synths, not really on the whole. The singer not be in everyone's taste, but I like it.

 

http://www.gep.co.uk/iq/

[Odyssian]

If you're looking for more "in your face" prog, check out Mastermind:

 

http://www.k2nesoft.com/mastermind/welcome.html

 

These guys are great! I only have the Brainstorm CD, but they sound a lot like ELP. THe CD "Brainstorm" reminds me of Tarkus at time, I think mostly because of the rhythmic aspect.

 

What is unique about the band is that there is no keyboard player on the earlier albums (Brainstorm included). The guitarist plays synths from his guitar! Jens Johannsen (sp?) plays keys on some of the later albums.

 

Anyway, there are audio samples on their website. I listened to a little of Brainstorm. The synth parts are a little hard to hear due to the low bandwidth in the streaming file, but they are there....try listening around the 5 min mark.

 

Oh yeah, I saw them live at this past year's Nearfest. I left during Nektar's set to hear them play (I'm a Nektar fan from way back), and I am glad to have seen them. They put on a GREAT performance.

[Krakit]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

Hi Tusker, check out the band "IQ". They've been around for quite awhile, but I really enjoy them.

 

They remind me of Genesis at times. That's in terms of the synths, not really on the whole. The singer not be in everyone's taste, but I like it.

 

http://www.gep.co.uk/iq/

Genisis, eh? Hmmmm, sound a hell of a lot more like Styx to me.

 

I watched all three videos. The Xmas one and the game show for kids, didn't really tell me much, so I'll skip reviewing them. The one in the middle The Darkest Hour killed my media player after about 6 minutes, I hope I got the idea because I didn't reload it for the remaining 4. The beginning of the song was pretty good. I ignored the poor production values, I assume that it was video'd by cam corder or some such. The keys seemed to be competant, I liked the bass very much. However, when the vocals started, I had to wince. Poor production values or not, the harmonies were a bit off, and I think that the lead singer requires more post production polishing to pull off the sound he gets from the only audio clip I heard, Intro/ Outer Limits I'm guessing that this audio came off the mixing board and perhaps had some mix down touch ups applied (as it seems to have been recorded live).

 

Since, these are the only offerings from IQ I have, I would say, "No, not for me. I won't be buying, sorry". The keys seem "compentent" enough, but there's nothing outstanding in the 15 minutes that I listened to. As for the song Outer Limits itself, it has a lot of drag to it. The first 2:40 are a complete waste in an already long piece (over 9 minutes), just a droning groove for the length of time as most entire pop songs.

 

Overall, I grade it a D+

 

Carl

[Krakit]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

If you're looking for more "in your face" prog, check out Mastermind:

 

http://www.k2nesoft.com/mastermind/welcome.html

 

These guys are great! I only have the Brainstorm CD, but they sound a lot like ELP. THe CD "Brainstorm" reminds me of Tarkus at time, I think mostly because of the rhythmic aspect.

 

What is unique about the band is that there is no keyboard player on the earlier albums (Brainstorm included). The guitarist plays synths from his guitar! Jens Johannsen (sp?) plays keys on some of the later albums.

 

Anyway, there are audio samples on their website. I listened to a little of Brainstorm. The synth parts are a little hard to hear due to the low bandwidth in the streaming file, but they are there....try listening around the 5 min mark.

 

Oh yeah, I saw them live at this past year's Nearfest. I left during Nektar's set to hear them play (I'm a Nektar fan from way back), and I am glad to have seen them. They put on a GREAT performance.

I listened to Beast of Babylon and With Dignity & Grace. Neither tune was really my cup of meat. Seemed much more like speed metal than Progressive Rock. So, seeing as how you mentioned Brainstorm especially I just skipped to that. At first when I saw the 21:25 song lenght, I figured that I saw where the Tarkus comparison came from. Alas, I didn't see any other simularities. The entire first half was almost purely guitar oriented. Jamming on the same 8 chord progression. The tune didn't become interesting until 11:20 which, unfortunately lasted about a minute. The next interesting bit didn't arrive until about 20:50 (a long time to wait between interesting bits).

 

Overall, I'd say that this is a very guitar-centric project. Brainstorm seemed to be all about this 8 chord hook, but never really went anywhere. It's 21 minutes I'd like back please .

 

Between your two offerings, I'd say that IQ was the more interesting (based on what I listened to from both). At least the keyboards where more interesting. It sounded like the keyboard player in Mastermind was actually better than the one in IQ, but the guitar egos got in the way and only gave him about 45 seconds to shine in a twenty one minute and 25 second piece of music.

 

Carl

[Tusker]

I'll check those two bands out. It'll take awhile on my 56K. I have to warn you, I tend not to like neo-prog.

 

My interest in them is more because a prog/shred guitarist friend of mine (Michael Harris) keeps me in the loop. I do listen to his cd's and I like some of the stuff on Liquid Tension experiment a bit. I've also liked some spock's beard from a songwriting standpoint.

 

To each his own, I suppose. Thanks again.

 

Jerry

[Odyssian]

Hi Krakit. I'm curious of the prog bands that you listen to and like? I'm also a prog head since the 70's and was a little surprised by your critique of the bands that I mentioned. The comment about the vocals I can understand. They don't bother me though.

 

Thanks...

[Odyssian]

I'd like to mention that I'm not familiar with later Mastermind, but the early albums are just three guys (Bass, Drums, and Guitar). I really like Brainstorm, but I guess I said that already .

 

I have probably 4 or 5 IQ albums, and they don't remind me of Styx at all. Maybe the proggier Styx, I dunno...

[schmoron13]

stupid question:

 

does MMW qualify as Prog Rock? if not, then where exactly do they fall in, acid jazz?

[progfusion74]

Originally posted by schmoron13:

stupid question:

 

does MMW qualify as Prog Rock? if not, then where exactly do they fall in, acid jazz?

I always classidied MMW as funked up groove fusion

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

I'd like to mention that I'm not familiar with later Mastermind, but the early albums are just three guys (Bass, Drums, and Guitar). I really like Brainstorm, but I guess I said that already .

 

I have probably 4 or 5 IQ albums, and they don't remind me of Styx at all. Maybe the proggier Styx, I dunno...

I hate to sound like a bastard, but... Mastermind is an example of not so good contemporary prog, really. I mean their musicianship is OK but their music (on first three or four albums) absolutely lucks any originality! It's totally dependent on (very simplified, albeit much heavier) ELP sound. (Though yeah, the fact that they pull it off without a keyboard player is quite an achievement). I heard ALL their albums (borrowed them from a friend) and ended up buying only one, very atypical CD of theirs called "Excelsior". It's totally instrumental, with a strong shift towards prog-fusion and... (NB!) has a guest keyboardist - Jens Johannson himself. Sorry Odyssian, but that's the only Mastermind's album I would recommend to those unfamiliar with them.

 

As for IQ... It always puzzles me why almost everyone compares them to Genesis! (Oh, and I think their sound has nothing to do with Styx! ). A comparison to the early Marillion would be more precise, imo. (But then again, early Marillion was compared to the old Genesis a lot, so go figure...).

 

Also for those who missed this thread (a hint for Krakit )

http://www.musicgearnetwork.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=006534

... check it out.

[Odyssian]

Wow! I don't even remember posting in that other thread! I guess you can see that I am an IQ fan. lol!

[Odyssian]

Originally posted by Gulliver:

Mastermind is an example of not so good contemporary prog, really. I mean their musicianship is OK but their music (on first three or four albums) absolutely lucks any originality! It's totally dependent on (very simplified, albeit much heavier) ELP sound.

For me, the fact that they DO sound like a heavier ELP is the very reason for me liking them. At least on the one CD that I have. I don't know about the "simplified" comment...maybe a little, but it's definitely enough to keep me interested. That's not saying much however!

[Krakit]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

Hi Krakit. I'm curious of the prog bands that you listen to and like? I'm also a prog head since the 70's and was a little surprised by your critique of the bands that I mentioned. The comment about the vocals I can understand. They don't bother me though.

 

Thanks...

I'm going to save who my favorite bands are for now. However, I'll give you an example of a band that I heard last night for the first time that I really liked. They lean heavily toward Fusion, but that's not a bad thing.

 

Unicorn Records artist Spaced Out. Terrible name, but those are the breaks. I listened to some tracks from their latest album Slow Gin particularly E.M.O. . Sample some of the MP3\'s here

 

Carl.

[coyote]

I'vee not heard anything by Mastermind. But your (paraphrased) comment:

"sounds like a much heavier ELP, but somehow accomplishes it without keyboards"

is definitely an indication of some originality on their part! I mean, think about it.... the Stones used ChuckBerryesque riffs to eventually make their own thing; PearlJam's roots show through so clearly they might as well have happened in 1971. I will be very happy if I can pen some things which show ELP's influence on my music.

 

Originally posted by Gulliver:

I hate to sound like a bastard, but... Mastermind is an example of not so good contemporary prog, really. I mean their musicianship is OK but their music (on first three or four albums) absolutely lucks any originality! It's totally dependent on (very simplified, albeit much heavier) ELP sound. (Though yeah, the fact that they pull it off without a keyboard player is quite an achievement).

[progfusion74]

I was listening to a bunch of keyboard heavy albums yesterday

 

"Pinup Guru" by Tomas Bodin

"Scenes from a Memory" by Dream Theater (Every time I hear Rudess play I want to go buy a ribbon controller )

"fission" by Jens Johannson

"The Dream Sequencer" by Ayreon

 

among others

[Tusker]

Originally posted by schmoron13:

stupid question:

 

does MMW qualify as Prog Rock? if not, then where exactly do they fall in, acid jazz?

If MMW are modern prog, than count me in as a modern prog rock fan.

 

They put on a good show, and are very musical, to me. I think most would classify them as fusion or as a "jam-band".

 

Jerry

[David R]

I'd call MMW jazz. If you've heard them play acoustic, they definitely fall into the category of jazz. The term "jamband" is so open ended and can comprise any band who collectively improvises in a popular music idiom (as opposed to classical). Too huge. But I think that niche is where a lot of good keyboardists have wound up -- Brian Haas (of Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey), Medeski, Bruce Hornsby, Kyle Hollingsworth (String Cheese Incident).

 

Guys like Scott Kinsey (Tribal Tech) and Geoff Keezer are more fusion-y and may appeal more to the prog-rock fan.

 

David