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#759019 - 11/05/06 07:43 AM Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
vcs700s Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Leesburg, VA
I have a Hartke B300 for a practice amp at home. I have been reading some of their material, as well as other brands, as I hope to get a bigger amp in the future. My amp has "paper cones" but Hartke also has combos and cabinets with aluminum cones. From what I am reading one of the differences is sound.

My questions are: Does Hartke make good amps and cabinets? I really like my B300 but it is only a 30 watt amp with a 10" speaker. I am new to all this, but to me it sounds good. How is the sound and quality of the bigger Hartke products and what is the difference between the paper and aluminum coned speakers?
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Thanks, Vic

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#759020 - 11/05/06 07:53 AM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Rocky McDougall Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 04/08/06
Posts: 4272
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
In my opinion, Hartke makes good amps for their price range. The main difference in the aluminum cone is, that it does not absorb moisture and should not rot with age. However, the speaker's surround material, (foam, cloth, vinyl, etc.) is usually the first material to fail. I think the aluminium cone is more of a sales gimmik that a real advantage. I don't see any high end makers using it. IMHO There are others on this forum that can give you a more professionl opinion.
Rocky
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#759021 - 11/05/06 12:41 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Wally Malone Offline
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Registered: 02/03/01
Posts: 3668
Loc: Boulder Creek,CA,UNITED STATES
GK now has their Goldline with aluminum cones. I haven't tried them but have seen good reviews.

Wally
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#759022 - 11/05/06 12:53 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
JonathanD Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1014
Loc: indianapolis
I'm not a fan of hartke, but if you like the sound then its good for you. The hartke head and amp I bought used worked perfectly for me and was good quality. I dont like the sound, it was too brittle IMO. I had aluminum cones but never did a side by side with paper cones through the same amp so I cant tell you for sure if there is a difference.
Your best bet it to go to a music store with a nice selection and play them all. do this while your saving money up. Then go back a few times with your bass and effects and try them out again. when you need an amp/cab and know how loud you need to be then go get the one that made your pants/skirt rise. Also, once you have found what you like exactly, look on ebay, and for it used. also check reviews and see if there have been a lot of tecxhnical problems with the unit.

Last thing. Pick up the amp and cab as though you were going to put it in your car and go to a gig. Do you want to take that up stairs? can you fit it in your car? what happens it you have to carry it 1/4mile to a gig? Do you want casters? Is the ohm rating of the cab a good match for the amp?
Jonathan
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#759023 - 11/05/06 03:49 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Bottomgottem Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1915
Loc: Morganton, North Carolina, USA
I have two Hartke cabs. One is an XL 1X15; the other an XL 2X10. I power them with a SWR SM-400S.

I like the 1X15 alot. I do not find it to be at all tinny or brittle. It does color my sound somewhat, but I like the color. However, at 200 watts, it is a bit lacking in the power handling department.

The 2X10, I do not like so much. I only use it to practice with and will probably get rid of it at the earliest opportunity.

I have had no problems at all with either cabs. construction.
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#759024 - 11/06/06 08:11 AM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
vcs700s Offline
Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Leesburg, VA
Anyone else use Hartke? I have been reading their brochure and notice that they used the aluminum cones before they started using the paper ones. Is it a question of durability or sound or both?

Has anyone here used both and noticed a difference in sound or durability or both?
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Thanks, Vic

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#759025 - 11/06/06 10:34 AM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Jbass46 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 43
Loc: Chesapeake, Va
Currently I am using two Hartke cabs powered with an Ampeg B4R or B2R head, depending on the gig/situation. My top cab is the VX410 (4-10" aluminum cone drivers) and my bottom cab is the 115XL (full range cab w/ paper 15' driver and horn). (Gee I hope I have the "VX" "XL" designations right - cabs are at the studio) I am quite happy with the overall sound that this combination produces. The aluminum 10's give a bit of bite and punch while the 15 rounds out the sound with a little more warmth. Of course both heads I use have graphic eq's so I am able to shape the sound to my liking and room acoustics.

If I had had a larger budget when I bought the cabs I probably would have looked at/listened to other alternatives. But now that I have them and have kinda "dialed in" the amps and cabs - I'm not in a hurry to get rid of them for something else.

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#759026 - 11/06/06 12:21 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Eric VB Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 5576
Hey Vic!

I bought my Hartke gear years ago, but it hasn't seen a lot of hard, steady use. Right now it plays out every Sunday at very low volumes. I have two Transporter 410TP 4x10 cabs (aluminum cones).

Reliability
If you search these forums (and the other bass forums out there), you'll find that the biggest problem reported with aluminum-cone Hartke cabs is reliability. For an example of what can happen, check out this thread . [Note that in this case the faulty gear was made by Behringer, not Hartke. Behringer's reputation for reliability makes Hartke look infallible. :rolleyes: ]

The weakness appears to be joining two materials with dissimilar expansion coefficients. More simply, the aluminum expands and contracts at a different rate than the paper it is attached to. It's the same reason why a lot of cars with iron blocks and aluminum heads have more of a chance for head gasket failures.

At least this explanation makes the most sense to me. I came to this conclusion after reading about a guy who's cones came undone after playing an outdoor concert where the sun was shining directly on the cones, undoubtedly making them rather hot.

As a precautionary measure, I try to keep my cabs at a fairly steady temperature and avoid drastic temperature changes. So far, so good. All 8 drivers are still intact (knock on wood).

Build Quality
The rest of the cab is designed rather sturdily. The interlocking corners work well and have been durable, standing up to being moved/dragged short distances over concrete. The felting is nice and thick, and hasn't torn or worn after many trips being wiggled into my trunk. The only thing I'm concerned about is when I carry the cab by the bottom, I can feel the join in the felting, although it has not come undone. The wood seems to be thick and sturdy. I have some confidence the metal grill will protect the cones; haven't had that tested yet. The jack has been faultless after many insertions. Nothing rattles; no screws have come loose or fallen out. I don't think there is any way the integral handles could possible break and are convenient, although they may not be as convenient as other handle designs.

In contrast, some other gear I've used has had thin metal corners that don't protect as well and remain dented after any mishap. I always worry about stacks that don't lock together, although haven't had any disasters yet. Casters or metal feet are better, but using a furniture dolly (a.k.a. "four wheeler") is probably better anyway. One combo I had only had a thin plastic/vinyl covering that tore and scratched easily, revealing bare wood. I've never had a problem with wood breaking. That combo also had a thin fabric driver cover which picked up some small tears over time, and the velcro-like things that held it on wore down. I've never had a jack go bad on any amplifier system (only on guitars). The only things I've ever had come loose were vacuum tubes (valves). Strap-style handles are often inconvenient and I always worry they will break, as I have seen evidence of this happening to others.

So overall I'd say the build quality of Hartke gear is solid. However, there were some bad reviews reported in this thread , although those were on a discontinued product. It's conceivable that those problems came about because that particular model didn't sell well and sat around for too long. I certainly didn't have those kinds of problems with my Hartke gear.

Sound Quality
In terms of sound quality, it can be rather subjective. The biggest objection surprisingly seems to stem from pairing Hartke heads with Hartke cabs. There are far fewer complaints about Hartke heads driving other-branded cabs. Although other-branded heads driving Hartke cabs seems to be preferred, some still dislike the tone coloration from the aluminum cones. There seems to be more tolerance for the paper cones.

For the record, I have two Hartke HA 3500 heads, so I fall in the minority of those that don't mind the Hartke/Hartke combination. I have heard my head drive a Mesa Boogie 4x12 cab before -- either with or without one of my 410TPs -- and it did seem to round out the tone quite a bit.

When I bought my rig I brought my bass in to test out some different setups at the store. I think they had three similarly priced systems on the floor I could try, the other two being Ampeg (?) and something else. I didn't like the third system at all. In choosing between the Ampeg (?) and Hartke, it appeared the Hartke was louder (probably because of the pronounced mids). It was also less expensive so that's what I chose.

After reading a lot of posts here and elsewhere, I realize now that I was looking at some of the smaller, lower-end systems. Is anything in that price range considered to have really good sound quality? Probably not when compared to bigger, high-end rigs. For me it was a huge step up from a 100W 1x15 combo in many ways.

Paper Versus Aluminum
Without a doubt the aluminum cones will color your sound. You'll either like it or not. A lot of people use adjectives like "metalic" or "tinny" when describing them. (Examples of hearing with your eyes? ;\) ) They are certainly brighter, more trebly, and accentuate higher frequencies.

Here\'s another discussion about amps and cabs, and in particular how Hartke stacks up. As you can see by the responses, it's a highly subjective thing.

Just as an example of a pro that does use Hartke gear (with aluminum cones), check out this pic of Jack Bruce in concert from the Jack Bruce website . Although some have suggested it is purely an endorsement-type deal ( here\'s one example ), none the less he's still using them on stage.

Tone, Tone, Tone!
Almost any bass rig is going to alter (color) the tone of the bass. Going the PA/SR route seems to be better for getting that ideal "ruler flat" response, although do the people with those rigs necessarily always run them "flat"? Granted it's still probably the better choice because you can dial in the lows if you want because they are there, whereas you won't get lows out of a system where they are not present in the first place.

Unlike guitars, in the studio it's far less common to mic a bass rig for recording. If the engineer wants to record you amp'd, he's probably got an old Ampeg B15 he'd rather use than whatever you bring with you. So it's a little unrealistic to rely on your amp to define your tone. In fact, Geddy Lee from Rush is at least one pro bassist that develops his tone up front, so he can use the same signal chain in the studio as well as live.

So a bassist's rig only has one purpose: to make him/her loud enough on stage. And somewhere around here there's evidence that most venues absolutely stink when it comes to acoustics. And then there is talk of "bedroom tone" -- that tone that sounds great when we play all by ourselves at home -- and how that great sounding tone often does not cut it on stage.

Does it matter if your rig doesn't pump out the lows if the room is going to swallow them up anyway? If your mids are muddy, but the room muddies up your mids far worse anyway?

Isn't there a good chance you're going to be sending a DI signal to the FOH anyway, and the sound guy is going to EQ you (or whatever) for the room? Your amp is just acting as a stage monitor then, no?

In smaller venues, yes, you have to rely on your rig to fill the room with sound. But you still have to fight the (horrible sounding) room. With a true full-range system you'll have more options.

But wait a minute ... at least in the studio the engineer is going to cut your lows to give the kick drum more sonic space, and then roll off your highs to make room for everyone else. What are you left with? Could it be that midrange hump that most bass rigs are designed to deliver? (I have no idea what a live sound guy does to dial everyone in.)

Summary
Ok, obviously this is a huge topic and we could go on about it all day. It's been talked about on here for years. It's impossible to pick one system as the clear winner for everyone in every situation. Or even for one person over the course of his/her career.

Yes, there is plenty of anecdotal information on the web that should cause anybody to think twice before buying aluminum-cone drivers from any manufacturer. Hartke just happens to be the most visible of those manufacturers. If that's a sound you want and can't get it any other way, then I'd just suggest you be a little more careful in how you treat your equipment, and be prepared if the worst should happen.


Assuming I haven't bored everyone to death, this post should spur quite a bit of conversation.

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#759027 - 11/23/06 08:06 AM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
jar546 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 723
Loc: West Pittston, PA
What a great post above. You must be a writer. There was no boredom at all, very informative and to the point with little to no wasted space. thanks
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#759028 - 11/23/06 02:22 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
... Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6789
If you do a search on "bumpcity" and "hartke" on this forum you should find a vast quantity of my thoughts on their products.

As recently as last weekend I played a gig at a big club that has backline provided . It's a GK head with Hartke 4x10 and 1x15 cabs. I brought my own rig. The last time I played through that same setup was at a club in Miami . I was less than impressed with my sound that night. I was using a Spector NS5XL at the time and that rig managed to make that bass sound very 'blah'.

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#759029 - 11/23/06 07:44 PM Re: Hartke- Paper vs. Aluminum Cones
Dave Sisk Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3768
Loc: Raleigh, NC, USA
I've never been much of a fan of the Hartke cabs (personally preference), but my first head was a Hartke head and Peavey 1516 cab. That was a pretty good combination. The head sounded good for the price, and I believe the Hartke heads are generally good values in the low-to-mid price gear.

I've never really like how the aluminum cone cabs sound. The larger 8x10 and 2x15 aluminum driver cabs sound pretty good in Sam Ash, but I still think they tend to be somewhat shy in the lower-mids and lows. They have plenty of upper mids (and we'll talked at length on this forum about how important those upper mids are to clarity), but without the lows and particularly the lower-mids they seem to get lost in the mix to me. However, note that is my own personal assessment, and your mileage may vary. If you like the tone, however, they are quite inexpensive in comparison to some other brands.

Dave
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