Okay, time to take off the gloves! I assume we all agree that time keeping is a major part of playing the bass well. Chops are optional, but time and groove? An absolute must. While there are varying opinions, I think the best way to get your time together is through focused, consistent practice with a metronome. I do clinics specifically aimed at teaching these ideas, have written 3 articles for BP on time and groove, and while I'm not claiming to be Mr. Perfect Time, it is top priority for my own development. That said.....who actually USES the metronome, and if not, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR????

To my shame, I've been slacking on practicing with a metronome, lately. I admit, that click kind of bugs me, and attempts at Jamming with my dusty old Alesis SR-16 (drum machine) left me similarly cold.

It's true that lots of stage time has helped certain aspects of my groove, but I was mortified when I listened to myself on a recent gig tape. It's time to tighten up, again.

And on that note... I'm getting that sucker out and practicing.

I use one at least twice a week while practicing scales/modes/chords or when doing reading exercises. I also use an Alesis SR16 and a sequencer to jam with as well and to work on and refine bass lines for my band's songs.

over the years all my great teachers insisted on metronome practice. my students call it the dreaded metronme drills. i use a drum machine so i can practice with different feels. especially usefull is programing in clave for practicing tumbao. this is crucial for getting this groove to sit. its important to put in all the claves as the changes in the bass ostinato are very subtle

I use a metronome every day. Sometimes even twice a day.

I had the good fortune to study with Rodney Whittaker for a short time. One of the things he thought was important to do every day was to set the metronome at a speed where I could play whole notes, halfs, quarters, eights, triplets, sixteenths, and
edge it up a little every time 16ths got comfortable. and to go back and forth on these sub-divisions on just one note.

I also use it to learn scales and phrases, to work out fingerings. I set it slow (55-60)
and use sub-divisions or the rhythm patterns in the Galamian violin book to keep from getting bored.
Once I have a fingering that works or is fun to play I slow it back down and concentrate on right or left hand tecnique; playing on the tips or alternating fingers.

Personally I think it has helped almost every aspect of my playing.

Plus sometimes I just like to hear it clicking away, its relaxing. My girlfriend likes to hear it as she goes to sleep, and when someone calls me on the phone during practice, its a signal to get off the phone.

I have a Boss DB-88. Which is nice 'cause I can adjust the volume on the first 1/4 note of a measure, or bring in triplets, or up beats. Really handy. I also use a Yamaha QY-20. Fun for different grooves or playing over a chord or a set of changes. If I'm practicing, say a Gdim. scale, I can have it play G7b9 over a latin groove forever and see how each note in the scale works with the chord.

One last thing about the Galamian book; I get bored pretty easy working scales, but there are so many patterns and ways to use them here I find myself enjoying practice.

thanks for the topic bilmac

bilmac,
I like the idea of working with tempos that you can play all the various sub-divisions. Being able to rhythmically shift gears is very important. There's a cool classical book called "Rhythmic Articualtion" by Pasquale Bona. It has melodies with lots of rhythmic levels, I like going between duple and triple meter.

I swear I'm going to put some lessons up on musicplayer.com! I'll do some different time/groove things, you can find my usual schtick, The Metronome As Guru at http://www.bassplayer.com/trenches, and the other articles - "Groovin' On The Grid" and "Get Great Time" have been combined in my new book, "The Working Bassist's Toolkit" (Back Beat Books) It's almost out, another month maybe. Anyway, I'll put something new up at MP.com soon.

I openly confess!!!! I even walk counting out using a Yamaha YM-2000. I'm a groove dog!!! I'm not by any stretch of the imagination the best bassist on the block, but I can boast that I'm complimented on having great time.

A very big part of I which attribute to faithful use of a Metronome.... and having Martman as my Drummer... he is as close to a human metronome as you can get.

IMHO.... they should be an automatic Purchase for anyone, especially anyone just starting out.

Mo

This message has been edited by Mo Thumper on 02-07-2001 at 05:33 PM

This message has been edited by Mo Thumper on 02-07-2001 at 05:33 PM

No matter what instrument it is, I like to practice with a metronome at least half the time. Definitely you have to develop a SENSE of what perfect time is. That doesn't mean you should then always have perfect time. I don't like to record with a click - I think if you practice enough with a metronome you don't need one, and you should be able to have great time while still allowing for the subtle time variations that make a performance really come to life. I don't aspire to be a "human metronome", that would suck.

Most people record to a click nowadays because the engineer or producer wants to be able to go back and edit pieces of one verse onto another without the tempo varying. But nowadays since I AM the engineer and the producer, if I get those kinds of notions I can tell myself to piss off.

--Lee

I have used a metronome for years, on the beat off the beat, on 2 an 4, you name it. I'm glad I've done it. Nowadays 99% of all the recording I do is to a click track and sequencers. No one else is there beside me the engineer and the producer. The other parts ared all added later and eventually the click and sequencers are removed. If I couldn't play with a metronome I'd be fired immediately.

Lately I have been working a lot with the metronome with a difficult student. (you know how some people are tone dear? I occasionally get students that are "time deaf". They cannot feel or hear time, can't tap their feet and play, etc. I am working on getting the student to hear the metronome as well as hear himself--and it's g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y working. I think we need a few more years.

I tried all the things in "the Metronome as Guru" article, I'm having trouble finding a metronome which goes slow enough to use for one beat per measure at any tempo slower than 160. Any ideas?

Recently I bought a Korg MA-20 metronome which matches the excellent Korg CA-20 and GA-20 tuners. It's about the size of a cassette tape and works great.

------------------
http://www.jps.net/jeremy/basspage.html

>>........ I occasionally get students that are "time deaf". They cannot feel or hear time, can't tap their feet and play, etc. I am working on getting the student to hear the metronome as well as hear himself--and it's g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y working. I think we need a few more years...........<<

A suggestion..... try having them march....

Start off with the left foot and calling out loud a quarter note count, while plucking a single note, as their left foot strikes the ground. They can either stand in place or march around... As they progress ya start tossing in 8ths, 16ths, triplets.

I've seen excellent results with this... piss'em off a little ... but it does work.... kinda like in Mr.Holland's Opus

Mo

This message has been edited by Mo Thumper on 02-04-2001 at 02:55 PM

umm i hate to sound stupid but what is a metronome and what are chops? I'm sorry i'm not actually playing a bass yet!

Jeremy, I have seen metronomes that go down as low as 35 bpm, I don't know what brand they were off the top of my head. I also use my drum machine with a half note click programmed. The machine goes down to 20bpm, so conceivably I can go as slow as I want. Imagine a whole note click at 20 bpm, that's....5bpm! Yeah sure, I can groove to that! Anyway the thing about going lower than 40 bpm is while it gets easier to play technically, the slower you go, the more challenging it is to lock in. But hey, it's all good for you!

Lee, I agree that certain things should not be recorded with a click, if you have good players, you don't want to dictate the feel, but sometimes it is necessary. Jingle sessions, movie dates, etc. where timing is critical playing with a click becomes crucial. And like Jeremy, much of my recording work in the past has involved playing to pre-existing midi tracks, or laying down something that will eventually be synched to a machine track.
Out here in Tucson, most of the things I've done have been the old fashioned way, get the tempo from a click and then leave the band up to it's own devices.

The ProTools editing revolution in production has made it more critical to have the tempo stay consistent, so I guess we have to accept the click in more situations. Bottom line, if you practice with it, it's no problem.

I've used the "marching" technique with rhythmically challenged students before. It works sometimes. It's important to "get" how time feels with your body. Though there are those rare individuals that seemingly can't figure it out, I just give them the name of a good guitar teacher!

Dan, Don't hate to sound stupid! Enjoy it while it lasts, you won't be "stupid" for long!

A metronome is a device that clicks a consistent tempo that you can set. The old fashioned ones were wind-up models with a pendulum that went "tick-tock". The new models are electric or battery powered little boxes that have a tempo dial. Make sure you get one when you buy your bass! And "chops" is a slang term for your technique, or ability to play. As in : "The guitar player was shredding notes at the speed of sound. The audience marveled at his chops, AND his lack of musical taste!"

I used to practice all the time with a metronome. I feel that if you practice too much and rely too much on the metronome, you lose your sense of timing and your groove is gone. When your groove is gone.....sell your bass and start stocking groceries. I have been blessed with a great sense of time and a great drummer. I realize I am lucky on both regards.....besides, I don't like stocking groceries.

Cornbread,
Welcome to the Bass Station!
>>I feel that if you practice too much and rely too much on the metronome, you lose your sense of timing and your groove is gone<<
I understand what you're saying, I've heard several people voice this concern.
My assertion is: by practicing with a metronome, you're training yourself to be as accurate as possible, but once you turn it off, you're on your own. No human being will ever turn into a machine. If you add in the variables other musicians bring to the equation, the human factor increases exponentially. The only danger is when you become convinced that you are the only one that's right and you stop listening to others. Shedding with the'nome helps you become the tower of strength that you must be to make the band happen. They all rely on us to put it where it's at, and the hours spent with a reliable time source helps you become a solid centralizing force in the music. Just my humble opinion.

Ed wrote:

>>The ProTools editing revolution in production has made it more critical to have the tempo stay consistent, so I guess we have to accept the click in more situations. Bottom line, if you practice with it, it's no problem.<<

But that's just it - it's not a "problem" from the point of view of being able to technically execute it, and a lot of bassists (and drummers) consider it a great "challenge" to be able to play with a click and still make it groove.

But I feel that even though it may not be a "problem" that we are still sacrificing the best possible performance by requiring a consistent tempo. The best performances I know are ones where the tempo does move with the song, and it doesn't detract from anything technically because if they're great players they are all locked in together and feeling the song in the same way. That's one of the things that makes music magic, and exciting, and alive.

And I don't believe the ability to edit the crap out of stuff in Pro Tools is worth sacrificing that. Funny, I just wrote something about that on Craig Anderton's forum the other day.

But anyway. I still think it's good to practice with them.

--Lee

Sorry for any confusion about my post. By you not knowing the situation in my band, you do not fully understand my argument. I believe that it is essential to practice with and without a metronome. What I was saying is that if a person practices and relys too heavily on a metronome, then the player will develop no sense of timing.
I don't claim to be perfect nor do I think I'm the only one that is right. The band has to work together, but someone needs to be the foundation, which is what I am in my band.
You also missed that I said it was essential to practice with a metronome. I feel I've progressed enough to not have to practice as often with one. This method works for me. It may not work for anyone else. I just merely responded to your question the way you asked it.

Is there any advantage to using a metronome if you already are using a drum machine set to a simple pattern, for instance 1/8th notes with a hi-hat sound ?

SteveRB - Well the advantage to just using a click (it could be from a drum machine) as opposed to a pattern (even a simple one) is you have to do the subdivisions internally. That's the whole point. It makes you more responsible for the time. Drum machines are great for many reasons, but for time development it's kind of like having someone chew your food for you.

I still use simple patterns on the machine for students that can't hear it yet, eventually they can be weaned off it.

Lee, I agree about the Pro Tools thing. The technology is sometimes covering up mediocre musicianship. Now, all you have to do is get a good A, B and bridge down and the song can be cut and pasted together. I like it when you get musicians playing together and breathing. In my heart, I'm a jazz guy, so this whole cut/paste thing is whack in my book anyway.

I really dig playing with a metronome, actually. It is amazing how funky it can be! Seriously!!

I know a lot of people feel that it is really stale, and difficult and all that, but for me, I can funk it up good with a metronome. (Well, only a metronome with an arm. When I use a digital I get lost...even if I don't look at them, an arm-metronome I stay in time with, a digital one I lose.)

Like you were saying, Ed, you have to do the divisions internally. There is no hi-hat or snare to play off of. You have to make those beats happen yourself.

And that's where I can get funkier with my metronome than with my drummer. (He doesn't listen very well.)

OK. So I am a weirdo...
- Christian
Budapest, Hungary
http://www.Crunchy-Frog.com

Christian, Maybe you should introduce your drummer to Mr. Metronome too!

Hey Ed,
Yeah, I have been sort of working up to the stage where I can suggest my drummer start using a metronome for practice. He takes any sort of criticism very badly, and I am trying to be gentle.

However, I did have a great opportunity to make the point the other day. We were packing the stuff up in my house to move to the new practice space, and I said, "Hey Dan, bring the metronome sitting on the table next to you. I want to work on my time, so I want to bring that one to practice with."

Heh, heh.

- Christian
Budapest, Hungary
http://www.Crunchy-Frog.com

Christian, Good strategy! Drummers can get very touchy when you comment on their time. (well, anyone can..) If you lead by example, that will get results.