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where is this all going...my prediction.


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I have this sick feeling and I fear where this all may go. Here is my prediction (like anyone will care). I do hope I am wrong. Afghanistan will be wiped out by a united force Desert Storm style. bin Laden will be killed. There will be increasingly severe terrorists attacks in USA, Europe and Israel. There will be a terrorists attack involving a nuclear, biologic or chemical weapon of mass destruction. A major world leader will be assassinated, either in Israel or USA. There will be nuclear war in the middle east in 2002. The holy land will be destroyed. Like I said, hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, you heard it here first. This message has been edited by midispaceho on 09-13-2001 at 07:05 AM
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or all the smart people (most of us) will rise up and say enough! most people in the world just want to chill...have a place to live...and be happy.....it is the ones "in power" that are doing all the wrong! "fuzz"
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[quote]Originally posted by spacebass: [b]or all the smart people (most of us) will rise up and say enough! most people in the world just want to chill...have a place to live...and be happy.....it is the ones "in power" that are doing all the wrong! "fuzz"[/b][/quote] Well said! But it will take a whole lot of vocal rising, only thinking about it will make no difference in the real world... /Mats

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[quote]Originally posted by midispaceho: [b]I have this sick feeling and I fear where this all may go. Here is my prediction (like anyone will care). I do hope I am wrong. Afghanistan will be wiped out by a united force Desert Storm style. bin Laden will be killed. There will be increasingly severe terrorists attacks in USA, Europe and Israel. There will be a terrorists attack involving a nuclear, biologic or chemical weapon of mass destruction. A major world leader will be assassinated, either in Israel or USA. There will be nuclear war in the middle east in 2002. The holy land will be destroyed. Like I said, hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, you heard it hear first. [/b][/quote] You don't know HOW ACCURATE that statement is, according to the brother of a friend of mine, who works for a "Government Agency." EXCEPT they believe that Atomic and Chemical/Nuclear weapons are HERE NOW, and will be used as soon as the US retaliates. They are, and have been, going nuts looking for it, as we speak. ------------------ Bob.

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[quote]Originally posted by THE MIX FIX: [b] You don't know HOW ACCURATE that statement is, according to the brother of a friend of mine, who works for a "Government Agency." EXCEPT they believe that Atomic and Chemical/Nuclear weapons are HERE NOW, and will be used as soon as the US retaliates. They are, and have been, going nuts looking for it, as we speak. [/b][/quote] YIKES! I hope I am very very very wrong. I have been informed by military friends that Nellis AFB in Las Vegas has been on high alert for terrorist activity for months. This message has been edited by midispaceho on 09-13-2001 at 07:03 AM
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If you want a preview of how successful a war on terrorism will be, look to the results of the "war on drugs." The similarities between dope dealers and terrorists are eerie: well-organized, well-financed cells that transcend national borders; occasional support from friendly governments (or governments that look the other way); insiders at airlines and shipping companies; forced support from locals due to terror; and a shadowy presence that's difficult to isolate, let alone eradicate. One more thought: I think focussing on Bin Laden is a mistake. He's one guy. It may give a temporary rush of satisfaction to rub him out, but that's like killing the head of Chase Manhattan and thinking that the banking industry will collapse. Terrorism is, I think, a collaborative effort of extremists everywhere -- Iran, Libya, Egypt (remember the assassination of Sadat?), Iraq, you name it. These people are a subset of the country, not the country itself. To use an analogy, terrorism is not like Napster, where you have a central server you can close down. It's like the peer-to-peer networks where closing them down requires closing down every node on that network. We better get damn creative. This is a new type of war.
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[quote]Originally posted by midispaceho: [b]killed. There will be increasingly severe terrorists attacks in USA, Europe and Israel. [/b][/quote] I dunno. I hate violence, makes me sick. This whole thing I think *has* made me sick. But - if we *did* do something Desert Storm style against the Taliban - [i] if it was proven they had a connection[/i], I think it *would* cause "whoever" to have pause about things. They're definitely going to continue their miscreantism if we do nothing. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

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First let me say that I am just as frightened of Nuclear war as ANY human being on the planet, That includes ALL countries. From what I understand, It will take possibly years before any TRUE retaliation takes place. We have the AID of Russia, Great Britain and others as well as the support of the UN and NATO in this cause. America has been wrong in the past when trying to 'flush' out terroists with bombs and consequently have killed numerous innocent civilians. This won't happen again hastily. I am scared shitless of the consequences of WAR, however, so is the government. All of those people who 'run' the govt. have spouses, mothers, sons, daughters, etc. Nobody want to see the end of mankind as we know it. The terroists on the other hand have clearly ASKED for WAR of some kind, possibly because they are prepared for it, who knows. The US Govt. obviously fears and expects reciprocal attacks on any action we take, the govt. obviously expects the absolute worst at this time. This is indeed a crisis and one without a clear ending. Since we don't know ANYTHING at this point, it is futile to predict the end of the world. For all we know, the end of the world is 1000 years away. History has shown how people can panic and become dissabled in times of global instability. That is the worst thing we can do. The US has been expecting some sort of major terroist act for a long time, as we are 'overdue' so to speak. We have been in fear of biological warfare tactics against us for years and years. You certainly can't believe what you read and hear from someone who works in a government office about atomic bombs and so forth. Had someone like Bin Laden wanted to use those kinds of weapons against us, the last 2 days would have been perfect when we were extremely taxed in regards to man power and injured as whole. Now that we are in a state of DELTA and CHARLIE across the country is the worst possible 'strategic' time for this kind of action. Believe me, these groups are extremely intelligent and strategic. As someone stated earlier, tell your loved ones you love them every day. put your petty differences aside and try to LIVE.
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There are two types of terrorist attacks: A. The single guy who straps a homemade bomb to his chest and kills as many as he can with his blast. B. A well-organized, well-funded, and well-timed coordinated attack as we have witnessed this past week. I don't think we will ever be able to do anything about the first type, there's no way to fight one person who's willing to give his life for his cause. If anything good can come of this tragedy, it will be increased effort to eliminate the second type. The larger an attack is, the more people know about it, and the more training and money is involved. Killing bin Laden will eliminate one problem but there will be a lot more just like him to take his place. Severe punishment for those who fund and/or harbor those like him, however, whether it be a state, organization, or whatever, MAY give pause to others in the future before they do the same thing. I do not like the scenario this leads to, not at all, but its the only way that I can see to stop "Well-Organized" terrorism. Tuesday night one Senator on Larry King used the spineless phrase "impose sanctions"... that's never worked and never will. Damn, this is scary.

Botch

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Craig (as usual) has some good points. What upsets me is that our government will deal with these terrorist attacks through a huge show of force. We'll bomb Damascus or Kabul or Bagdhad (again), killing innocent people. Yes these countries harbor terrorists, but it's their populations that will be made to pay -- all to make Bush look like a strong leader. And assholes here in the U.S. will be dancing in the streets when they hear that we "bombed Afghanistan back to the stone age." What also upsets me is that every brown-skinned person with a mustache in this country will now be treated with suspicion and/or outright hatred. You know what? My girlfriend was in the lobby of the WTC when the 1st plane hit (she's shaken, but fine). Does that give me the right to be racist and bloodthirsty? No. I would love to see justice prevail, but more unnecessary killing will only fuel the cycle of hatred. It will create new terrorists. We've bombed the shit out of Bagdhad and killed countless civilians in Iraq. No wonder the US has been demonized throughout the Middle East.
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[quote]Originally posted by midispaceho: [b]I have this sick feeling and I fear where this all may go. Here is my prediction (like anyone will care). I do hope I am wrong. Afghanistan will be wiped out by a united force Desert Storm style. bin Laden will be killed. There will be increasingly severe terrorists attacks in USA, Europe and Israel. There will be a terrorists attack involving a nuclear, biologic or chemical weapon of mass destruction. A major world leader will be assassinated, either in Israel or USA. There will be nuclear war in the middle east in 2002. The holy land will be destroyed. Like I said, hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, you heard it here first. [/b][/quote] Such things were foretold in the Bible. Is this the beginning of the end? We'll just have to wait and see...
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Personally, I think the only way to stop this international terrorismis to hit them where it realy hurts. Their pocket books. Pass a law stating any connection with any kind of terrorist group will result in seizure of property and bank accounts worldwide. If they have no money to fund these operations, they will soon fizzle out. I have heard of rumours about fund raising benefits for people like this in the US, which makes me sick. This doen't just go for the binladen guys, but also for the IRA, White Supremacist etc. What's that you say, Freedom of speech? Yes Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to kill

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But you must also remember Pearl Harbor, They probably thought that was the End of the world as they knew it...Not so..Mutual Destruction and fear equals peace. As long as sane people know that the other side has the button then you're fine, It's when you get a mentally disturbed person with the button that you have problems. Very little good has ever come from those countries..even when they leave us alone we still see pictures of them destroying themselves...If we are looked upon as the worlds Keeper then DAMMIT lets play the part till it's finished.
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[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]But - if we *did* do something Desert Storm style against the Taliban - [i] if it was proven they had a connection[/i], I think it *would* cause "whoever" to have pause about things. [/b][/quote] I'm not sure that I agree. From my limited understanding of this particular breed of terrorist, isn't it considered an honor for them to die in the act? Wouldn't it follow that it would be honorable to die as a result as well? If so, it's kind of a Catch-22, isn't it? I have one other question that's bothering me - why hasn't anyone taken responsibility for these acts yet? Didn't Mr. bin-Laden take credit for his other little forays? Isn't one of the points of terrorism to identify yourself as the terrorist? If, in fact, it is considered an honor to die as a result of being involved with acts such as these, then doesn't it stand to reason that they wouldn't be scared of possible retribution? I am confused - I'd be interested to hear other perspectives. dB

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>>We better get damn creative. This is a new type of war.<< That remark sums it up. Your government knows that. and more... >>EXCEPT they believe that Atomic and Chemical/Nuclear weapons are HERE NOW<< The government has known they have it. Why do you think we keep bombing in name of destroying stupid 3rd rate radar installations and protect Kurds and whatever in a no-fly zone? The gulf war was an excuse to go and keep them from making it. The hanging around the no-fly zone was an excuse to keep an eye on it and somewhere in all of it, it's turned into an effort to destroy it. IS IT HERE NOW? Seems Tuesday with all the diversion, that was a good time to use it if they have it. These fanatics are a patient bunch. I can't imagine a worse time for us but maybe they do. Perhaps though it seemed to take at least 25 minutes before we figured out we were being attacked, we responded faster than they expected. Perhaps being in a school in Florida, the President was in the wrong, uncalculated place. Your government's holing up in the bunker actions tell me that they we're at least conceding the possibility that IT'S HERE and at a minimun read between the lines IT MIGHT NOT BE HERE... but it was an obvious confession...THEY DO HAVE IT. I know they have the credible sources, the Whitehouse (which is credible) and AF-1 (with all it's air protection against a bulky 757/767... isn't credible) we're also part of the attack, but not an excuse after the Air was cleared to abandon it's scared citizenry for most of the day. For every ounce of fear we experienced they were experiencing 2 ounces at least. Don't hold it against them. Who knows what could have happened... but this time they saved their butts and thus ours. >>Nobody want to see the end of mankind as we know it.<< I know what ya mean. I was a kid in 1st grade Florida during the Cuban missle crisis and I remember the panic... the main highways jammed with people getting the hell out of Florida, the twice a day bomb drills curlin under your desk or against the wall (kiss you ass goodbye?). That passed and every year the fear has got less and less. Like the movie "War Game" China, Russia, and the US have run through the scenarios every day but no buddy wins. There's no way for the three to carry on a strategic nuclear war... strategic meaning there being a winner and spoils. But.... for mental exercise... plug these varaibles into Tuesday scenario... The President was in Washington.... IT WAS HERE THERE IN Washington arriving via international flight... because our response time was longer.... Our silos and radar out west or whereever are looking for missles but don't know about the know about this new age of the terrorist homemade commercial airline missle.... don't know Washington had just been vapored. How long would anyone know. Ask yourself what was Russia and China with their own hi tech satellites doing Tuesday morning? Can we say chompin at the bit? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] They HAVE IT and IT is the one and only thing that could open up the opportunity for a strategic nuclear take over. What our government will do in the near future might well prove to be shocking, it ain't gonna be about terrorist or global malcontents, politics, beliefs.... it's gonna be out to safe life as we (we as in the whole world)know it. We better pray they succed. Maybe by plugin in a few variables I've made more of this week than what really was there. But those variables are there waiting to be plugged in and the feelings of that week in 1962 are back and a stark reality that ain't gonna disappear without some decisive action by all the governments of the world. hehehe.... BTW I'm soothsaying not for my benefit... God's making it pretty clear he wants my ass... but for you my friends.... my family, wife boys and grandkids. Pray for your governments. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url]

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[b] The similarities between dope dealers and terrorists are eerie: well-organized, well-financed cells that transcend national borders; occasional support from friendly governments (or governments that look the other way); insiders at airlines and shipping companies; forced support from locals due to terror; and a shadowy presence that's difficult to isolate, let alone eradicate.[/b] Excellent point; that had not occurred to me. We will NEVER eradicate the problem. We can only hope to slow these guys down and perhaps use prosperity to dissuade people from embarking upon such a brutal path in the first place. [b]I think focussing on Bin Laden is a mistake.[/b] Absolutely. Let the facts point to those responsible. I'm even wondering whether some of those guys that they're questioning were set up. Who would use their own credit card to buy tickets for seven terrorists? Who would leave an Arabic flight manual in their car at a time like this? The people who did this were smarter than that. I smell a red herring. [b]Terrorism is, I think, a collaborative effort of extremists everywhere -- Iran, Libya, Egypt (remember the assassination of Sadat?)[/b] Let's not forget the Israeli who assassinated the Israeli president, the Japanese citizen who assassinated a candidate for Prime Minister, the Mexicans and Colombians who have assassinated their own presidential candidates, and of course the Americans who have assassinated American presidents, in some instances as part of a grand conspiracy. [b]These people are a subset of the country, not the country itself.[/b] That is the single most important concept to keep in mind.
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This is a lose lose situation no matter how you slice it..bin Laden was trained and financed in the 80's by the CIA(our Govt.!) to fight against the soviet agression in Afganistan. This is shades of Noriega, Castro, and Libya's Khadafi to name a few. We train these people and they go on to do things that are counter to plain against USA doctrine. Either way, As Craig stated, it is a mistake to go after JUST bin Laden. I mean, his name has been mentioned since this thing happend every 2 min in the news and on TV..He is guilty in the Court of public opinion already and certainly has done other evil deeds that he must pay for whether he had direct involvement or not with Bloody Tuesday's attack. However, if we are to really strike a blow to terrorisn, we need to wage a unilateral effort against all terrorism in that region for a start. Multi-nation coalition using HEAVY force to force any nation to give up all Terrorists they harbor and some heavy Military payback on all Military and paramilitary infrastructures of the countries that harbor terrorists. However, is is a loose situation because the reign of terror will certainly start again(These are fanatics) and there will certainly be more attacks planned and attempted on the USA. This is a hard truth..Our lives may never be the same again. We may face the type of security needs that a country like ISREAL has to implement on some fronts, to protect ourselvs. More strict guidlines on who we let in this country. broader search and seizure laws, certainly RADICALLY Stronger Airport security guidelines(which we have been in need of), and overall a more wary attitude globally. These things will forever change the way we conduct ourselves as Americans. Also, I fear this Impending attack on Terrorism, could lead to Nuclear, and or Chemical Biological weapons being unleashed on our troops or our Friends in the region..GOD Help us all if it comes down to that. This message has been edited by sventvkg on 09-13-2001 at 03:11 PM

Sean Michael Mormelo

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Macartie wrote: [quote]I would love to see justice prevail, but more unnecessary killing will only fuel the cycle of hatred. [b]It will create new terrorists.[/b] We've bombed the shit out of Bagdhad and killed countless civilians in Iraq. No wonder the US has been demonized throughout the Middle East.[/quote] I agree. Also it appears to me that the root of this tragedy could possibly be the same as it has been in similar incidents here and abroad. Individuals with revenge in their hearts consider their actions justified. I ask: What is the difference between justice and revenge in there minds? For every violent incident in recent times, whether accidental, collateral, deliberate or whatever, there are survivors, families, and others directly affected whose hearts have been broken. A guaranteed percentage of these will seek justice/revenge on their own by any means necessary and in God’s name. Since deadly force is the only solution in certain circumstances, our dilemma is essentially: How do we mend a broken heart? How doe we break this vicious cycle?
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After talking with a friend, I'm in full agreement with his view. It's time to remove ourselves from those who engage in religious war. Be it Ireland, Israel, wherever. These wars have no justification. They are an endless, senseless stream of death in the name of God. Who's God is right or wrong. The manipulation of organized religion for power is the worst evil on the planet. Those who live by the morals common to most religions are the ones who have a firm spiritual base. Those who find it their duty to kill for God actually kill for evil. They do no justice or service to their religion or their God. What ever your faith may be, denounce in the strongest terms the wars over religion. It's seems the only path to peace in this world. This message has been edited by TinderArts on 09-13-2001 at 03:47 PM
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I think there is a much more effective and logical way to strike back against Afghanistan - if indeed Bin Laden is responsible. The Taliban has been fighting a bitter war - ever since the Soviets pulled out, against what is being called the Northern Alliance, a coalition of somewhat less radical Islamic groups ranging from a bit less radical than the Taliban to somewhat moderate to secular. Right now this war is in a stalemate, with the battle lines drawn about 30Km north of Kabul. The opposition lack the means to over throw the Taliban, and the Taliban, for the same reasons the Soviets couldn't control Afghanistan, lack the ability to crush the opposition. Neither group has particularly advanced military hardware, but the Taliban has helicopter gunships left by the Soviets, and some armour and artillary - which seem to make the difference. If the United States wants to hurt Taliban and punish them for giving santuary to Bin Laden, all they have to do is erase Taliban's advantage over the Northern Alliance. Take out their armour, their helicopters and their artillary and let the Alliance do the rest. No one should believe that the Alliance would be any more allies of the United States, but at least it would punish the regime that has aided those who have hurt us. Under no circunstances should the United States ever consider trying to occupy or militarily defeat the Taliban. The British, Russians and now the Taliban have all discovered the hard way how difficult it is to conduct a war in this region - similar to the Balkans. Even Alexander the Great suffered staggering losses in Afghanistan. Secondly, this would be seen by many Muslims, but particularly the fundamentalist types, to be an other example of the US (Infidels) occupying cradle of Islam, and would only incite more hatred towards Americans. Don.
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong: James Bryce
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Dave Bryce wrote: [quote]I have one other question that's bothering me - why hasn't anyone taken responsibility for these acts yet? Didn't Mr. bin-Laden take credit for his other little forays? Isn't one of the points of terrorism to identify yourself as the terrorist? If, in fact, it is considered an honor to die as a result of being involved with acts such as these, then doesn't it stand to reason that they wouldn't be scared of possible retribution? [/quote] Dave, Bin Laden has never taken responsibility for his previous forays, at least not in the last decade, as far as i know. The reason is at least twofold: one, it becomes obvious that he was involved, directly or through funding; two, and more importantly probably concerning his strategy, the Govt. which is allowing him to reside in their country have less of a leg to stand on when he unashamedly says: "Yes, i am responsible". Instead, he comes out with disgusting remarks like: "I have nothing to do with it but i congradulate the people responsible." Unfortunately it is a clever manouvre of Bin Laden's. The Taliban are obviously scared. That is a possible reason for saying (at the outset) that Bin Laden in their opinion did not have the capability to carry out such an attack. They say they will not extradite Bin Laden because in a sense, he has not admitted to anything. Craig said that it would be a mistake to concentrate on Bin Laden. True, but the man is very rich and that means funding others. He is without a doubt a key element. He should be captured and brought to justice (i cannot condone violence of any sort). In chess, when you take out the key element, the queen, the game can still continue, but mostly the end result has been set. It would demoralise any other terrorists. So, yes and no as to concentrating on Bin Laden. my thoughts are with you all love swifty
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Bin Ladin should be hunted but you KNOW he's going to put a gun to his head or take poison and not allow himself to be captured alive. I think this is just part of his plan. The alternative is to capture members of the cell and kept escalating the intelligence to capture higher up lieutenants etc until you have the core of them. THEN you just kill Bin Laden when you find him. It should lessen the responses by other terrorist's.
TROLL . . . ish.
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This doesn't seem too much like the war on drugs to me. I say that because: 1) The illegal drug industry is huge - a lot of money at stake. 2) Many Americans just aren't fired up over the War on Drugs - I think it is silly and could be solved more appropriately by regulated drugs and taxation. 3) Anything that is in demand and made illegal creates a haven for crime - that is the Drug War scene. Americans buy drugs - plain and simple - if they didn't, there would be no need for a War on Drugs. How is Terrorism like this? I don't really see Terrorism as an Industry that benefits anyone economically (other than illegal arms dealers and the like) and I cannot imagine any American, or otherwise, who feels complacent about it now. There is perhaps one other similarity: our actions create a haven for illegal drug trade whether directly or indirectly. It is also likely that something we are doing is creating a situation that makes some people's lives so miserable that they see truning to terrorism as the only thing they can do to make their point. You can not back a wounded animal into a corner and then be surprised if you are attacked - it should be a calculated risk. Now if the animal is maddend with rabies, that's a whole different thing - it has to be put out of its misery.

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>>>I would love to see justice prevail, but more unnecessary killing will only fuel the cycle of hatred. It will create new terrorists. We've bombed the shit out of Bagdhad and killed countless civilians in Iraq. No wonder the US has been demonized throughout the Middle East. And why, pray tell, did we do that? Read the history about Neville Chamberlain. Appeasement never works. It's wonderful to think Mr. Vandreisen nice rosy thoughts about how if we're nice and rosy to these poor misunderstood people, they'll be nice and rosy back, and we'll all have a big group hug. In reality, these poor misunderstood people are holding a big tube of KY jelly behind their backs.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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When the murrow building in in Oklahoma City was blown up, the popular sentiment was to bomb Iran or Iraq. The bashing of anyone with a hint of middle eastern culture was in vogue. Then we find out it was a guy from MICHIGAN. Was there a great clammer to bomb MICHIGAN??????!!!! NO!!! Tim McVey was supported by many in that region. The Michigan Militia is a REAL entity. They gave him shelter, money, food, weapons and training. Sooooo did we even think about it???? God....why is it so hard to see it's as ludicrous to randomly bomb Afghanistan or Libya or anyone else for that matter, for the actions of a few demented fucks.... This thing is smaller than it feels. While the impact on us and our loved ones and our national Psyche is immense. The players in this game are infinitesimal. We are ready to commit genocide for the will of a few bad men. I understand the "need" for revenge but we simply cannot resort to emotion in dealing with this handful of sick bastards. My plea is for none other than to slow down and think about the consequences of our actions, lest we be no more reasonable than those we are trying to destroy.
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