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#512545 - 04/19/04 07:01 PM How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
PookyNMR Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 50
Loc: Canada
I'm trying to figure out how this trick was done. Any thoughts would be appreciated...

I'm speaking specifically of the first line of Madonna's song "Vogue" where she speaks and says "What are you looking at!"

The trick is that with every word the image changes to where it sounds like she starts to the right in the front of you but ends up sounding like she is behind you on the right at the end of the phrase. Now I know the obvious that there is an automated pan going on, but what I can't figure out is how to get that sound pariticularly on the last few words where she sounds like she is actually behind you. I've done the automated pan and tried some messing with phase, but I still can't get it to sound like the vocal image is actually coming from behind me.

Any thoughts as to how this was done?

Many thanks,

Nathan
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#512546 - 04/19/04 07:26 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Nika Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/22/01
Posts: 2938
Loc: Ft Wayne,IN,UNITED STATES
I don't know specifically of what you speak, but there are ways to play tricks with your ears to make it sound like things are happening behind you. It's all just a matter of phasephuqing the signal to correspond to the way that the human ear hears things happening behind your head - certain filtering and phase correlation will simulate the same response that the pinna has on what you hear. The Roland RSS-10 did an excellent job of simulating a 360 degree panning environment in stereo. You might also look into the Cooper-Bauck corporation or look up "transaural" on the internet and see what you come up with. The best and most convincing surround demonstration I ever heard was done on two speakers right in front of me.

Nika.
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#512547 - 04/19/04 08:05 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
GY Offline
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Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 1125
Loc: Santa Ynez, CA
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#512548 - 04/19/04 08:26 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
3D Audio Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 1032
Loc: Spring Hill, TN, US


Mondo Mod by Waves.

Features 0-360 degree panning with AM and FM modulation and panning speed.

It's an incredble tool. It will do just what you want.
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#512549 - 04/19/04 08:44 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
DAS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 161
Loc: Nashville
What you're hearing is a process called "Q Sound" that came alog in the mid 80's. "Vogue" was one of the first albums to use it. It was touted to be the next thing to take over mixing. If my memeory serves me right Shelly Yackus had a hand in not in creating the process, but trying to get it into wide spread usage.

It was interesting as it worked (so I was told) in ordinary 2 channel speakers without a decoder. A few assistants I worked with at the now defunct A&M Studios invested on the ground floor, believing the hype and expecting to make a lot of money. (Shelly was running A&M at that time...thus the insider's connection)

As should be obvious by now, it never took off. Why I don't know...and all those who invested lost all their hard earned cash.
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#512550 - 04/19/04 09:26 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Prabha Offline
Member

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Santiago, Chile
There`s a software ( windows as fas as I know ) that does this Q sound process to .wav files.
If my memory doesn`t fail me it`s called Q commander.
It`s not real time though..... but quite effective.

Juan Pablo Q

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#512551 - 04/20/04 03:58 AM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
joeq Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 141
Quote:
Originally posted by DAS:

As should be obvious by now, it never took off. Why I don't know...and all those who invested lost all their hard earned cash.
I remember hearing at the time that Q sound had a rough time with mono compatibility. Throw the song into mono and the vocal all but disappeared. that may not be what killed it but, I am sure it didn't help.

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#512552 - 04/20/04 06:09 AM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
pontus olsson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Stockholm,Sweden
If Iīm not wrong "QSYS/TDM (from QSoundLabs) was the first "surround"-plug in for ProTools. Itīs still available but only in TDM. They have no plans to upgrade it to HDTDM. Thatīs a pity because it was pretty expensive when I bought it in 1996.

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#512553 - 04/20/04 10:56 AM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
3D Audio Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 1032
Loc: Spring Hill, TN, US
Quote:
Originally posted by joeq:
Quote:
Originally posted by DAS:

As should be obvious by now, it never took off. Why I don't know...and all those who invested lost all their hard earned cash.
I remember hearing at the time that Q sound had a rough time with mono compatibility. Throw the song into mono and the vocal all but disappeared. that may not be what killed it but, I am sure it didn't help.
That will be true of any plugin that does phase manipulation and reaches 180 degrees. You just have to weigh the benefit of the sound to the fact that some people will hear nothing when in mono and decide. I worked with an artist last week that had a :40 cut that was all completely out of phase. "Anyone listening in mono will hear nothing for :40 as that cut goes by," I informed them.

"Cool."
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#512554 - 04/20/04 12:02 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Calfee Jones Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 395
Loc: Memphis USA
You can do this by using 2 channels with the same track program, put one channel out of phase and then adjust between the 2 using pan and volume.

I have done this on a couple of recordings to great effect. The first time I heard something like this on a record was on Pink Floyd's DSOTM.

I'm sure it's much easier to do with a plugin, but you can also do it the old fashioned way...
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#512555 - 04/20/04 12:06 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Calfee Jones Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 395
Loc: Memphis USA
You know, I was just thinkin - another way to do something similar -

I had a couple of mics set up in a stereo configuration and I stood behind them and recorded a tambourine. On playback the tambourine sounded like it was behind me - in the same position where I was standing behind the mics. Hmmm... interesting....
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#512556 - 04/20/04 02:19 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
PookyNMR Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 50
Loc: Canada
Thanks everyone for the responses.

So the "Mondo Mod" by Waves and the Q sound process are the quick ticket.

I thought that there must be some sort of phase trickery in there. I'll keep experimenting with some of the suggestions to do this manually. I'd like to try to gain an understanding of 'how and why' it works the way it does.

Nathan
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#512557 - 04/20/04 05:01 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Frost Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 263
Loc: Chicago,IL,UNITED STATES
I actually studied with one of the creators of Q sound in my undergrad. We did a lot of studies pertaining to spacial audio and its manipulation. We did find that the ear will often hear a sound that is directly behind the head as a sound in front of the listener. This is because the interaural time delay is equal thus should be in front of the listener (at least the brain thinks so). The way to really trick the brain is how you described it, that is to make the sound wrap around. The brain will interpolate the sound location and assume the sounds movement is smooth. IE if it was left and behind, it must be behind now, and then it will be behind right etc.

Q sound is actually quite complex and uses phase, time, and frequency to move sounds. Its a neat bit of code which I have always been surprised did not become more popular.

Frost

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#512558 - 04/20/04 05:08 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
3D Audio Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 1032
Loc: Spring Hill, TN, US
Quote:
Originally posted by Frost:
Q sound is actually quite complex and uses phase, time, and frequency to move sounds. Its a neat bit of code which I have always been surprised did not become more popular.
If you want to hear it used to great effect, check out Sting's Soul Cages. It sounds wonderful, not gimmicky at all.
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#512559 - 04/20/04 05:51 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
VerySoon Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/27/01
Posts: 1041
Loc: LA LA Land
Holophonics is by far the most impressive 3D sound processing I've ever heard.

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#512560 - 04/20/04 06:18 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
PookyNMR Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 50
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Frost:
I actually studied with one of the creators of Q sound in my undergrad. We did a lot of studies pertaining to spacial audio and its manipulation. We did find that the ear will often hear a sound that is directly behind the head as a sound in front of the listener. This is because the interaural time delay is equal thus should be in front of the listener (at least the brain thinks so). The way to really trick the brain is how you described it, that is to make the sound wrap around. The brain will interpolate the sound location and assume the sounds movement is smooth. IE if it was left and behind, it must be behind now, and then it will be behind right etc.

Q sound is actually quite complex and uses phase, time, and frequency to move sounds. Its a neat bit of code which I have always been surprised did not become more popular.

Frost
Forgive my ignorance, but does "Q sound" have a comercially available product? I did a search to no avail.

thanks,

nathan
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#512561 - 04/20/04 06:27 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
not coaster MODERATOR Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 5306
Loc: Nowhere Special
the analog method works too. rotate the mic so that you are singing into the back of it. the results are amazing

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#512562 - 04/20/04 08:59 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
Touchwood Studios Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 35
Loc: Regina Canada
I have a Bob Clearmountain Percussion & Bass CD-ROM. Many of the percussion samples were recorded with Q-Sound. They always sounded cool to me.
I thought it was a Calgary company that developed it (But I can't remember). I always thought that when they wanted to licence it's use was a bit strange- It always made me think who would ever pay for an effect on a per song basis?

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#512563 - 04/21/04 05:56 AM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
pontus olsson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Stockholm,Sweden
This is the only info I can find about QSYS/TDM on QSoundLabs site. I donīt know, but maybe they donīt sell it anymore.

http://www.qsound.com/2002/support/faq-qsys.asp

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#512564 - 04/21/04 03:58 PM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
PookyNMR Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 50
Loc: Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by pontus olsson:
This is the only info I can find about QSYS/TDM on QSoundLabs site. I donīt know, but maybe they donīt sell it anymore.

http://www.qsound.com/2002/support/faq-qsys.asp
Thanks. I searched the site, but did not find that page!

I wrote to them and asked if they had any plans to make a VST version for Nuendo (Mac).

Nathan
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#512565 - 04/22/04 04:32 AM Re: How was this done? Vocal image *behind* the listener
blackbox Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 5
Loc: Memphis TN
The binaural method works well for this as well. Use 2 PZM/Boundary mics seperated by a wedge of foam (I usually grap the foam/padding from a mic case). Treating the mics as the "ears" of the "head" you've effectively created, stand back and sing into the "face." The track will seem to sit behind your head.
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