A mic to complement SP C1 and SM58

[Rim]

My favorite vocal setup is the C1 into the Blue Tube into the RNC. I was trying to record a female vox with this and it didn't sound good. I'm also going to be recording a different female vox and I fear the C1 may not be right for the job. I figure I need another mic to add to my arsenal. From searching the forum and my budget of < $500, I came up with this list: AT 4033 - $270 Rode NTK - $500 AKG C4000B - $460 Shure KSM32 - $500 My quesiton is, which would best complement the vocal mics I already have. In other words, which mic would most likely sound good when the C1 and the SMs don't? Currenlty, I'm focusing on recording female voice in pop/rock music. I lean towards the 4033 since it's a lot cheaper. Are the other ones worth all the extra money? TIA, Riff

[Rog]

The Rode.

[Gtoledo3]

In my experience the KSM is the most accurate, if that makes any difference to you ;) I have a 4033, checked out a NTK- good, wasn't crazy about it. I find that the KSM can be used on the widest variety of material. Just my opinion.

[Franknputer]

If you're thinking Rode, check out the NT2. About $400 street, & IMO it's SCHWEET!! :p

[Dak Lander]

I did a demo vocal for a proposed intro for a tv pilot with a KSM32. I wasn't all that impressed with it. It's a very nice mic but I think, for the money, Rode will do a better job. Granted the voice is quite different than the female voice you're working with, but in actuality, I like my very inexpensive Marshall Electronics mics sound better than the KSM32 for my voice.

[mixman_dup1]

While the RODE is a very good mic, the character is pretty similar to the C1, despite the RODE being a tube. I would look into something different like AT4033. I think the 4033 does a very good job on instruments and has a unique sound. I think that would compliment the C1 which does a very good vocal sound. Anyway, I hope that helps you.

[Rim]

Thanks for the input so far. From my count, the leader with two votes is the Rode but mixman feels it is similar in character to the C1. Still torn b/w NTK and 4033. :confused: Would love to hear other's comments.

[rog951]

Hey riff...start saving up for an AKG C-414. I find that between the C1 and the 414, I can cover almost all the vocal bases and lotsa other stuff too. It's not too much more $$$ than the NTK.

[Gtoledo3]

Daklander, I agree and I don't agree;) When I first heard it, I WAS NOT impressed. Then I realized it was because it's not really a flattering mic. If you want something that's going to dress something up, go somewhere else. If you want something closer to reality than the other mics mentioned, I would go with the KSM. If you don't have some good outboard and need a "hyped/tube" sound, your money would be better spent on the alternatives.

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]Hey riff...start saving up for an AKG C-414. I find that between the C1 and the 414, I can cover almost all the vocal bases and lotsa other stuff too. It's not too much more $$$ than the NTK.[/b][/quote]Yikes! C-414 is $800 at MF. Quite a bit more. If I spend that much, wouldn't I be better off getting a Grace 101 pre and the 4033? The pres available to me are Blue Tube, Mackie VLZ Pro and Digi001. I'll throw the 414 in the mix since you're the one who got me on to C1 (and the Blue Tube and the RNC :) ). At that price range, don't my options become wider? An aside, Steve Fortner's trying to get a gathering for DC/Balt/Rich area folks. I don't know if you've missed it. Here's the [url=http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007167]link[/url]

[Rim]

GT3, good point and something I hadn't considered it before you mentioned it - whether I want accuracy or flattery. I think I want to lean more towards flattery since none of the singers I'm about to record would've made it to the top 20 on American Idol :) . I understand accuracy in mics. What makes a mic flattering?

[bond1]

I've owned the NTK, SP C-3, Rode nt2, and AT 4050. I would prabably pick the NTK to complement the C-1. I think it has a different character than the SP. I found it a little more relaxed in the upper midrange compared to SP, a little less edginess in that region.

[rog951]

[quote]Originally posted by riffing: [b] [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]Hey riff...start saving up for an AKG C-414. I find that between the C1 and the 414, I can cover almost all the vocal bases and lotsa other stuff too. It's not too much more $$$ than the NTK.[/b][/quote]Yikes! C-414 is $800 at MF. Quite a bit more. If I spend that much, wouldn't I be better off getting a Grace 101 pre and the 4033? The pres available to me are Blue Tube, Mackie VLZ Pro and Digi001. I'll throw the 414 in the mix since you're the one who got me on to C1 (and the Blue Tube and the RNC :) ). At that price range, don't my options become wider? An aside, Steve Fortner's trying to get a gathering for DC/Balt/Rich area folks. I don't know if you've missed it. Here's the [url=http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007167]link[/url] [/b][/quote]I got mine from Guitar Center in Rockville for $699, even though their price was around $800. Still, I think they regularly go cheaper than that on ebay...$500-$600. If I hadn't been drunk, I probably wouldn't have bought mine at G.C. :) I've seen the 414 bundled different ways, like, you might not get the shock mount at the lower price (and it IS a cool shock mount!) but I dunno how important that is to you... BTW, glad you like your C1 so much! I think you bought yours before I bought mine; I remember I was mooching one off a buddy a while back. He finally made me give it back so I got my own! :) I missed the DC get-together thread. I'll go check it out. I got a new job recently and I haven't had much time to spend around here since I started. Thanks for the heads-up!

[Dak Lander]

GT3, I do like the KSM32. I just think there are mics out there that are as good, or better for the same, or less, money. Knock a hundred bucks off & you got a winner, maybe. It may very well be that it doesn't suit my voice. I know it's flat but compared to the "flat" mics I've used before, and some I still use, it's dead. Might have been the "chamber" I was in during the recording but it didn't seem to have any life at all. Not vocal enhancemnt, life. That's the only time I've been involved with that mic. The mics I use here are, according to the specs, flat, and the sound is transparent and clean. I can't say the same about the KSM32. It was flat & dead. If that's what you're talking about by being accurate, I'm not so sure I want it in my arsenal. To me, accurate would be flat, clean, transparent and precise and you would hear from the mic what you heard in the chamber. You should hear the little echo off the wall & etc., & the nuances of the room. I didn't seem to get that from the KSM32. Now, I'm gonna throw out another piece of flame material. It was recorded into ProTools. Maybe that was the problem, or maybe it was the guy behind the controls. All things considered, it's not one I would run out and buy at the going price is what I'm taling about. Hell, I'm rambling & flaming... OUT!

[DC]

[quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]Hey riff...start saving up for an AKG C-414. I find that between the C1 and the 414, I can cover almost all the vocal bases and lotsa other stuff too. It's not too much more $$$ than the NTK.[/b][/quote]These are the two I use for lead vox most of the time. The C1 works on my voice for a lot of styles and the 414 is about the best female vocal mic I've heard for recording. The 414 is excellant for tenor male vox too.

[rog951]

[quote]Originally posted by DC: [b]These are the two I use for lead vox most of the time. The C1 works on my voice for a lot of styles and the 414 is about the best female vocal mic I've heard for recording. The 414 is excellant for tenor male vox too.[/b][/quote]Funny you should say that...I use the 414 on my voice all the time and think it works better for me than any other mic I have. BUT, my voice is fairly deep. Is the general consensus that the 414 works better on higher-pitched voices?

[DC]

[quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]Funny you should say that...I use the 414 on my voice all the time and think it works better for me than any other mic I have. BUT, my voice is fairly deep. Is the general consensus that the 414 works better on higher-pitched voices?[/b][/quote]Say Rog, maybe it's just my experience. I've got myself sounding pretty good on the 414 but I need to eq it where my partner and several other females or a tenor (sorta Sting, McCartney range singing guy) just sounded great through it with not much eq. My voice has too much lows and low mids in it. I've been thinking about checking that AKG C-2000 just because it has a roll off at 500 Hz. The C1 has been working well on me for folky stuff and some pop & some rock, but synthy songs and harder rock it doesn't really work. I've had to pull out my 20 year old Rat Shack secret weapon then. ;)

[Rim]

OK, after more research, I can see me going for the 414. Which one? I lean towards the B-ULS b/c the TLII is more expensive and supposedly tuned specifically for vox so it may not be as flexible? If I'm gonna spend that much, I'd rather have a more multi-purpose mic. How about the EB? I'm still thinking about the NTK, too. I think I just need to try it. (OK, I can hear most of you say "Duh!" from here. Cut it out! :) ) I would like to try the 414 first and I can afford it from ebay. Unfortunately, you know, ebay doesn't have returns. If I get the NTK from MF and don't like it, I can return it. Decisions, decisions ... :confused:

[jnorman]

i've never liked the 414 too much, though it can be just the thing for certain applications. i have to vote for the NTK for your use, though. i sold my pair of neumann tlm103s after buying a pair of NTKs - they are that good. i had a pair of SP C1s also, and they are pretty good, though a little honky in the mids for some things.

[DC]

[quote]Originally posted by jnorman: [b]i had a pair of SP C1s also, and they are pretty good, though a little honky in the mids for some things.[/b][/quote]The C1s have a bump at around 500 Hz that bothers me. I've always gotta dip right there to get the sound I want. I love the above 10K air though.

[Rim]

[quote]Originally posted by mixman: [b]While the RODE is a very good mic, the character is pretty similar to the C1, despite the RODE being a tube. I would look into something different like AT4033. I think the 4033 does a very good job on instruments and has a unique sound. I think that would compliment the C1 which does a very good vocal sound. Anyway, I hope that helps you.[/b][/quote]Alan, Your post is just about the only thing that's preventing me from going ahead and getting an NTK. I figure you really know the C1. If you don't mind, what do you think of the 414? You mentioned the 4033 for instruments, how does it compare on female vocal tracks w/ C1, NTK and 414?

[rog951]

Hey riff, There's a Mars music out in Springfield somewhere that has a big display with mics set up so you can try each one while listening through headphones. It's pretty cool, except it IS still a music store; critical listening ain't always so easy with all the aspiring James Hetfields jammin' away! :) But if you could find a quiet time somehow (like just after opening or just before closing maybe?) you might be able to get a feel for what you like best. I know they had a C-414 B/ULS up as well as some of the "cheaper" Neumanns. I remember a Rode NT-1000 too but not sure about the NTK...I'm pretty sure there were no tube mics up there. Anyway, just an idea...

[mixman_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by riffing: [b] [quote]Originally posted by mixman: [b]While the RODE is a very good mic, the character is pretty similar to the C1, despite the RODE being a tube. I would look into something different like AT4033. I think the 4033 does a very good job on instruments and has a unique sound. I think that would compliment the C1 which does a very good vocal sound. Anyway, I hope that helps you.[/b][/quote]Alan, Your post is just about the only thing that's preventing me from going ahead and getting an NTK. I figure you really know the C1. If you don't mind, what do you think of the 414? You mentioned the 4033 for instruments, how does it compare on female vocal tracks w/ C1, NTK and 414?[/b][/quote]Well, I am not a fan of the new 414. It is too bright and brittle in the midrange for me. The older ones with the C12 capsule are way better, but hard to find and expensive. It is entertaining to see so many descriptions on microphones, but I understand why that is. Like I said a RODE or TLM103 is too close to the C1 sound. In addition, not every room is perfect so eq will always play into the factor to smooth out a rise or dip somewhere. Here is what I see as alternatives. The AT4033, the Studio Projects T3, a three pattern with nine adjustments Tube mic as Females always do well on a tube mic...about $599.00, or maybe your ears will like a 414, or a Blue Bottle, but try some out and see what you think! Alan Hyatt

[Rim]

rog951, good idea. I go to that store a lot but never thought of trying out the mics there - duh! Alan, thanks for the response. Will definitely look at the 4033. Once again, thanks to all who've responded. You've all been a great help!

[Rim]

Again, thanks to those who posted - greatly appreciated! A follow-up (for posterity's sake) Short of it: Got the AKG C4000B and it was great for the female vocalist I just recorded today! Long of it: I went to Mars and in their brilliant wisdom :rolleyes: , they moved their mic selection from a side room to the middle of their open area. WTF were they thinking? It was cool trying out some omnis though - felt like I was spying since I could hear conversations from a distance I wouldn't normally hear. Anyway, I tried out the following, 414B-ULS, TLM103, KSM32, KSM44, AT4040, AT3030, AKG C3000, AKG C4000B, MXL V93, and MXL V63. I wish they had the AT 4033 and NTK to try. Mind you, I'm not a pro and I just spoke into them and sang a little. I was lucky enough to find a woman who was also checking out mics and she sang into a couple I was interested in. Since the C1 does a good job adding presence and clarity, I was looking for something with warmth and smoothness. The Shures didn't jump out at me. And the MXLs had the same flavor as the C1. I narrowed it down to AT or AKG. If I had the money, I may have gone with the TLM103 or 414 - they did sound nice but I didn't spend too much time on them since I couldn't buy them anyway. I liked the warmth of a lot of the AKGs. The ATs were kind of between the C1 and AKGs. I can see where the ATs are a good all-around and I may get one in the future but I wanted something more opposite of the C1. Since I was ready to spend up to $500, I figured I better get a multi-pattern since I don't have one yet. I decided on the AKG C4000B ($430 at Mars, $30 off their normal price :thu: ). Had the first of many sessions with the female singer today. For vox, I set up the C1 and C4000B as follows: mic->Presonus Blue Tube->RNC->Digi001. I set up the mics next to each other since it was more to see which one was better with her voice, I didn't worry about phase cancellation. She's didn't really pay attention to my computer screen so I'm pretty sure it was a "blind test". I A/B'd the vox tracks on playback and she chose the C4000B! YEAH! (my choice, too) It added warmth and smoothness to her voice while the C1 was less flattering. For my voice though, the C1 is great (OK, Alan? :) )! Unfortunately, she didn't "buy it" when I told her I got that mic specifically for her and wouldn't let me charge her a higher hourly rate (she's a repeat client). :D Oh well. As an aside, to record her acoustic guitar, I set up three mics, C1, MK012 and SM57 through Mackie VLZ Pro. The MK012 had a fuller sound but the C1 may cut through the mix better. I'm not mixing so it's not my decision.