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Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512048 04/13/04 01:04 AM
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jeremy27 Offline OP
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Hey everyone.....

Anyone out there with opinions about the Sony C800G..... AKG C12VR......Neumann U87Ai?

I have a TLM 103, Rode NTK and a Neumann 147 tube, but I'm looking to expand the arsenal....

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512049 04/13/04 02:04 AM
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Philip O'Keefe Offline
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The C12VR is nothing like the vintage AKG C12's. Not worth the asking price IMO.

I've never been a huge U87 fan either. I'd prefer a good used U67.

The Sony is a nice mic, and a lot of people really like it. Good for some vocalists.

Two other companies you should look into: Brauner and Soundelux. IMO, they're the companies that are making the best mics today.

GM really likes, and often recommends the Audio Technica 4060 tube mic, so you might want to check that out too.


Phil O'Keefe
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Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512050 04/13/04 02:19 AM
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I just auditioned the new Brauner VMA last weekend on female vocal at the preamp shootout. It sounded wonderful.

The Soundelux E47 and E251 are also contenders for best vocal mic out there right now.

Get in touch with Brad or Richard at TransAmerica Audio Group about any of the above.


Lynn Fuston
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Home of 3dB
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512051 04/13/04 02:39 AM
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jeremy27 Offline OP
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Thanks Phil....Been trying ebay for the u67 and the orig. c12 for a while now, but no luck so far...Don't know if you can recommend somewhere to look? I'm in Jamaica...there are many studio, but everyone has old u87's, and NOBODY is trying to sell anything even if I would find it in their closet....It's too hard/expensive to bring in new gear and pay all the duties and taxes (45%)I'll look into the AT 4060, hopefully it's a different animal than previous models which always sound "body-less"...Sweetmidrange, but they just sound "light" in the mix.

Could you tell me which soundelux or brauner you would recommend? Or maybe something else i'm overlooking? Anyone share the same opinions as Phil?

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512052 04/13/04 02:43 AM
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jeremy27 Offline OP
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Thanks Lyn...

What about the Telefunken Ela M 251E?

Looks kinda pricey, but do you think it's worth it?

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512053 04/13/04 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy H:
Thanks Lyn(n)...

What about the Telefunken Ela M 251E?

Looks kinda pricey, but do you think it's worth it?
I've never heard it. But it would have to sound as good as two Soundelux E251s to justify the price. I'm sure it sounds great. I've just never had the chance to hear one myself.

Your ears alone would have to judge whether it's worth the price.


Lynn Fuston
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Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512054 04/13/04 03:36 AM
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natpub Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy H:
Thanks Phil....Been trying ebay for the u67 and the orig. c12 for a while now, but no luck so far...Could you tell me which soundelux or brauner you would recommend? Or maybe something else i'm overlooking? Anyone share the same opinions as Phil?
Check these for original C12, U67, U47, ELA M251, etc:

http://www.vintageking.com/useditems.cfm?category=1

http://www.odysseyprosound.com/used.html#mic

http://www.bavodekker.com/670.html

http://www.soundbroker.com

http://www.hticsproaudio.com/services.htm

I believe that Vintage King has the best reputation among those, as far as reliability.

------------------------------------------
Check these for the Brauner, Soundelux, and new Telefunken USA products--Telefunken USA is also building a new C12, looks very good:

http://www.telefunkenusa.com/

http://www.atlasproaudio.com

http://www.mercenary.com

http://www.transaudiogroup.com

---------------------------------------------
My sense of what is the very top choices if you have the money would be (alphabetical order):

Brauner VM1-KHE
Brauner VM1A
Soundelux 251
Soundelux E47
Telefunken ELAM251 (new)
Telefunken C12 (new)
Telefunken U47 (new)

If you are buying mostly for your own recording, I would never spend so much money on a mic. BUT, if you are building up a studio, or own one already, that you wish to rent to others, then you may have to have something in this class in order to attract customers and compete.

IMHO, I would avoid the old vintage mics---so much worry, though if you find the right one, they can be very beautiful. The new ones listed above are fantastic. I like the Brauners because they are more of a unique and new sound, rather than trying to sound like something else that is old.

Best,

KT

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512055 04/13/04 12:16 PM
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Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
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Lynn

have you have a chance to compare the Brauner Heyne Edition vs the new Brauner VMA? That should be really interessting.

All

I have read here in the DUC that a Scandinavien Guy builds one of the greatest microphone ever. (aswell very expensive). However I do not remember the guys name, nor the mic name. If anybody knows something please help.

daniel

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512056 04/13/04 12:33 PM
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Considering that the KH edition is about double the price of the regular VM, I would really love to hear a shootout also--maybe Brad will stop by and comment...

best,

KT

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512057 04/13/04 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:

I have read here in the DUC that a Scandinavien Guy builds one of the greatest microphone ever. (aswell very expensive). However I do not remember the guys name, nor the mic name. If anybody knows something please help.

daniel
That'll be Didrik de Geer. Awesome. Only ever heard stuff recorded with his mikes a couple of times, and I was utterly floored by the experience.


J. Eliot Howe (Chief Gear-Pimp)

Guitaravenue L.L.C.
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512058 04/13/04 12:56 PM
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steveD Offline
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I will add to the Sounddelux E47 votes.

In addition you need to consider the Royer R121. <- this is my hands down favorite for really strong female vocals.

and the Gefel UM92.1 It may have one of the sweetest sounding high ends I have heard.

I will sell you my U87 as I think it is a very weak mic.

Steve

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512059 04/13/04 01:35 PM
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skiboy Offline
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I'd chime in with the Brauner Phantom V -

The detail in high freq's is ASTOUNDING
NO coloration AT ALL
Perfect for male pop vocals
Your tracks will require no EQ in the mix !
It's cheaper than the Valvet and especially the VM but
delivers the Brauner Purity Of Essence \:D

And why not try John Peluso's 22 251 -

I just took a delivery of one with a 220 pwr supply.
I'll report my experience with it as soon as I really get to know it.

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512060 04/13/04 07:05 PM
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Hi,
Just to clarify the somewhat confusing model numbers in the Brauner line-up:

The VM1 K.H.E. is the Klaus Heyne edition. It is built as a collaboration between Dirk and Klaus, and each mic is custom tuned by Klaus. At $10k retail, it is the most expensive mic we carry and with good reason!

The VMA is new, and is the one Lynn got to try out. It has a switch on it that rebiases the tube and changes the electrical path slightly. That allows you to go from a classic VM1a to a more "colored", "big", "american", sound. It's hard to describe, but it is essentially two world class mics in one. It retails for $7500

The VM1-A is the latest edition of the classic Brauner VM1 mic. It retails at $5850.

The rest of the line is pretty clearly differentiated.

I only post all this to clear up confusion because the model numbers are all so similar. Please forgive the spam-like post!

I hope it helps,
Todd


Todd Peterson
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Transamerica Audio Group
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512061 04/13/04 07:09 PM
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Loco Offline
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The Brauner VM-1 KHE is hands down the best vocal mic I've ever tried. If you don't have the money for it, you can go for a Klaussified U87. Not cheap, either.


"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512062 04/14/04 12:54 AM
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Quote:
That'll be Didrik de Geer. Awesome. Only ever heard stuff recorded with his mikes a couple of times, and I was utterly floored by the experience.
Thats it, thanks very much!

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512063 04/14/04 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
That'll be Didrik de Geer. Awesome. Only ever heard stuff recorded with his mikes a couple of times, and I was utterly floored by the experience.
Thats it, thanks very much!
I've written all over about this microphone. It's simply the most incredible mic I've ever heard or used. I used two for a CD I did several years ago on overheads and percussion. Nobody I ever talked to about it, on this forum or many others had ever heard of it including Fletcher, at least at the time.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512064 04/14/04 01:29 AM
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3D Audio Offline
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After all the great things I've heard about this mic, it's shocking that Google only recovers 8 places where Didrik DeGeer is mentioned on the internet. Amazing, eh? And one or two of those aren't even about mics, just happen to have the names Didrik and DeGeer on the same page.


Lynn Fuston
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Home of 3dB
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512065 04/14/04 01:35 AM
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Yes me too I have not been able to find any useful information about that mic in the net.

Anybody has something to share?

Thx
Daniel

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512066 04/14/04 01:53 AM
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Jeremy,
It really depends on what kind of sound you are going for. If you want that Neumann sound, then you may want to look for a U67, M269, or a mic that sounds pretty good to me at lower price point is a Neumann/Geffel UM57 or a M582 with a large M71h capsule. Both tubes.

I think a good buy also is to search for a C12A or C12B in good shape. They have the CK12 capsule and sound great. No where as pricey as a C12.

New mics: I have tried the Soundelux next to the real deals and they sound good, but no contest.
Compared one of the Soundeluxes that was suppose to have the Neumann thing down to a Neumann U48. The Neumann blew the Soundelux mic away in a big way.

Korby mics: The ELAM 251 head he makes sounds good. A friend has that and a U67 head that sounds real good. I demoed this mic and again all my Neumanns blew his head away. My M49, M582 with M71H all slammed dunked them. The ELAM 251 did sound very nice though. A C12A or C12B can do the same thing at a better price.

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512067 04/14/04 01:56 AM
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I sell a fair amount of re-built British stuff into Sweden- Decca, Audix (the old Neve-ish UK Audix), Helios, Neve etc, and some of the guys who are into that stuff LOVE de Geer. The problem is - actually getting your hands on one of these mics. Folks who've bought them won't sell, as far as I know you can't hire them without a wrangler, and de Geer himself is as hard to get hold of as a well-greased python.

Without my Gothenburg people, I'd never have bumped into these.


J. Eliot Howe (Chief Gear-Pimp)

Guitaravenue L.L.C.
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512068 04/14/04 06:38 AM
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jeremy27 Offline OP
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Thanks Ollie...Thanks everyone...

My point is this....I have an Neumann TLM 103, and M147 Tube and a Rode NTK. I recently upgraded my setup to PT HD3, and I got an Avalon 737, a Vintech X81 and a Great River MP1-NV....

Not a bad selection....I just ordered the Sony C800G to add to it.

I guess I will always be searching for the "ultimate setup" which is a symptom of "gear lust" for all of us......

But if there are a few top class "no questions asked" microphones/preamp setups out there that I could invest in, then I could eliminate some of the guess work when trying to get a world class vocal sound.....And I know that it's more about the engineer using the gear than the gear itself...I've produced top 40 records with an AKG c3000 $400 mic through a Mackie 16 channel with an Alesis 3630 comp recorded on an Akai 16 track hard disk recorder.....I know what it takes..

But I'm in a position now to upgrade...So that's why I'm looking for opinions....

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512069 04/14/04 06:42 AM
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The Korby Convertible mic system is very nice. I chose it over the following:

Neumman M149
Neumann U87ai
Neumann M147
Soundelux E47
Soundelux U95s
Soundelux U95
Audio Technica 4060
and some others I can't recall right now....
Anyway, all of the above mics were great but I just preferred the Korby system with the 67M and 251 capsules. You go can here for more info on the Korby: Korby Audio

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512070 04/14/04 08:38 PM
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I certainly won't argue with any of the suggestions, as they are all superb mics, but I also am going to throw out the Sony C37- I really think that can be wonderful on voice...

Also, I am curious about the Sank mic that GM uses.


Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"-
http://www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php

The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project"
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512071 04/15/04 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy H:
Hey everyone.....

Anyone out there with opinions about the Sony C800G..... AKG C12VR......Neumann U87Ai?

I have a TLM 103, Rode NTK and a Neumann 147 tube, but I'm looking to expand the arsenal....
As a vocalist for many years, I learned early on that it's not so much the mic, but how your voice 'pairs' with the mic. My voice sounds great on a U87, but not so great on AKG's THE TUBE which is of equivalent quality. On the other hand, I have gotten some great sounds out of some more low end mics as well. For instance, the Audio Technica AT4050 and 4060 sounds great on my voice. What I recommend is going to your local high end studio and renting some time to audition different mics to find the right 'pairing' for you voice.

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512072 04/15/04 03:53 AM
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While certainly it is true that for every vocalist you should find the appropriated microphone. But it is also true that there exist some really magic vocal microphones, that shine on just about every voice you record through it.

A example that opened my eyes (or ears) was on a production I engineer where many different german singers are performing with a swiss world music group. For the Vocal Recording we went to a big german studio (TELDEX,Berlin) with a phantastic Mic Collection (plenty of U47's, M50's, M49 etc but also the newers, just the dream collection of every engineer...). I brought myself in a Brauner VM1 (which they did not have ) and a AKG C12.

One of the Soundengineers from the house who kindly helped to prepare the session recommended one of their U47 to try, saing that he found this to be a perfectly vocal mic and he would bet, that it would outperform all mics (his and mine) that we would try against it.

In the last 4 months I recorded over 6 Singers at this studio, and in every case that particillary U47 was hand down the winner. My lovely C12 (which I always loved for female vocals and thought that it would be impossible to beat) sounded like a wet muffy rag against that U47. It was just amaizing.

I am a bit frustrated, and unclair, since I am in Switzerland, how I can ever again make such great vocal recordings. (I can not fly to berlin for every vocal overdub, thats for sure). Thats why I am currently try to check if any of the todays microphone maker has anything in the same leage or if that art of building mics that are shining is lost, just about that today saxophonemakers do not know how to boild horns as good as the old ones, or that nobody knows how to build cymbals as nice sounding as old ones....

Daniel

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512073 04/15/04 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy H:
I've produced top 40 records with an AKG c3000 $400 mic through a Mackie 16 channel with an Alesis 3630 comp recorded on an Akai 16 track hard disk recorder.....I know what it takes..
And you're asking us questions?

With that 800G and the Great River, you should be set for multi-platinum. If that doesn't get it, then don't blame the gear.


Lynn Fuston
3D Audio Inc
Home of 3dB
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512074 04/15/04 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Yes me too I have not been able to find any useful information about that mic in the net.

Anybody has something to share?

Thx
Daniel
The closest to a real contact is this:

Seems like a home page....

And the most technical insight says:

Quote:
The Golden Microphone

On the Daydream album, Mariah sings through a new type of microphone named after the swede Didrik DeGeer. The microphone is built in 1930's style, with only one active component, and is manufactured from copper. For the perfect sound, the hand-tooled copper is some 30-40 years old. The microphone is dubbed by experts as the best there is, and costing about US$10000, it ought to be! The microphone weighs in at 2.2 kg and is 27 x 8 cm."
I guess you can rent it for $175 a day...


"There's no right, there's no wrong. There's only popular opinion" Jeffrey Goines
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512075 04/15/04 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by steveD:
I will add to the Sounddelux E47 votes.

In addition you need to consider the Royer R121. <- this is my hands down favorite for really strong female vocals.

and the Gefel UM92.1 It may have one of the sweetest sounding high ends I have heard.

I will sell you my U87 as I think it is a very weak mic.

Steve
MAny great mics mentioned in this thread. Recently, I've had the chance to learn about and hear some the the Microtech Gefell line. Real, real nice.


--
Stephen Boyke
Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512076 04/15/04 09:13 AM
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jeremy27 Offline OP
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Wow, Lynn.....Thanks for that whack in the face..... \:\(

I wasn't trying to boast...I know they're lots of guys with super credentials on this board...Like yourself.....That's why I'm here asking questions........I was just trying to avoid the "it's not the gear, it's the skill of the engineer" speech....I'm not a complete newbie either, so I didn't want folks to talk down to me too much...

Unfortunately I don't live in a country with music stores and dealers and high end studio's where I can rent, try, A-B, borrow etc. cool mics and pre's before I make a decision....If I don't buy it, I will probably never hear it....

I'll try not to offend you next time I post.
Thanks to all who have offered me any advice from which I can make a "leap of faith" decision, good or bad.

Peace.

Re: Vocal Mic - HIgh end contenders? #512077 04/15/04 10:41 AM
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A couple of years ago I worked a lot in a studio that had two Didrik DeGeer microphones. I have to say that though it´s a good microphone there´s nothing magic about it. Sometimes it sounded good and on certain occassions it was useless. I mostly used it on strings and soft female vocals.

I think the "Sanken" big membrane microphones are very impressive when it comes to definition. Good for high fidelity recordings.

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