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Perfectionism: where do you draw the line?


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Hi Folks: Where do you draw the line between getting something done and getting something perfect when you're not on a time limit? I'm really thinking in terms of tracking and mixing, but I think it applies accross the board with anything you're doing. For instance, I'm designing my up and coming studio, and I'm beating to death an inconsistency with the angles of the front walls where the mains will be mounted: they're a quarter of a degree off. At mix position it means the difference of an inch? My wife thinks it's hilarious that I'm putting so much time into getting it perfect - been two hours now. I do it with tracking and mixing too - give me the time and I will spend 2 weeks trying to get the right sound on laying down a single instrument [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] So where do you draw the line? I know people that put out tonnes of shitty-sounding material, and people that will put out a song a year which sounds great. What's a fair cutoff point? Any thoughts? Thanks, Harold
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Rold- Good topic. I think most engineers battle this one to a certain degree; yet each of us would answer it differently. All of the mistakes I've made over the past 15 years of engineering have helped me reach my current state of mind. The studio is a creative environment. You set it up to invite that creative energy into the room; and to allow that spark to resonate for as long as possible. As the engineer, you have two jobs. First, you must learn to recognize that creative spark the moment it happens. Second, you must capture the truth of that moment to the best of your ability. And thus, because you are prepared for this moment, the machine is already in "RECORD." So don't worry. You will still be able to do this, even if your front wall is a quarter of a degree off. Yet it is equally as important to recognize when the energy has gone. When the muse has flown, or when "Elvis has left the building," so to speak. I like to see progress in my work. I don't feel the need to saddle a dead horse. I may waste an hour chasing after a guitar tone or a snare drum sound, but beyond that, I'm going around in circles. Why? BECAUSE THE ESSENTIAL CHARACTER OF A SONG DOES NOT COME FROM THE ENGINEER. It belongs first to the Songwriter, second, to the Musician, and third, to the Instrument being played. If it's not working, change the part, change the drummer, change the drum, whatever you need to do to move forward. The cake should already taste good before the engineer puts on the frosting. Best of luck with your new room, SC This message has been edited by GT40sc on 07-20-2001 at 03:30 AM

SC

 

"If the machine produces tranquillity, it's right."

---Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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I spent a year planning my studio, but with bands I am used to railroading the production to move it along. Now I have my own place I am struggling with getting down to stuff..I've offered spec deals to some very laid back people.. that's weird for me, I normaly have a client on my back till I am done... A friend of mine take AGES to do stuff, but then it sounds great. I call him 'mad' but.... is he? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] Jules ------------------ "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- Hunter S. Thompson

Jules

Producer Julian Standen

London, UK,

Come hang here! http://www.gearslutz.com

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Ahh...the Razor's Edge... Too pick or not to pick...that is the question. Though I CAN fine tune something to death...I have just "thrown stuff down" that came out great. I am ready to fire up my new/redesigned studio set-up...I keep telling myself that I am going to TRY and move fast, keep it simple, GET IT DONE...we'll see. One suggestion/experiment for you rold (and I'm going to try it too), take a tune and FIRST, just get-it-done (save it)...THEN...go back and detail it to death (save that too)...compare. Did the "anal picking" make a difference? Some stuff you have to pick at, but a lot can be avoided. Shit...if I knew one of my speakers was an "inch off"...I'd probably be "tossin' and turnin'" 'til I fixed it! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] But "is it .005 ms too fast or too slow"? I'll leave that shit for Donald Fagen!!! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] This message has been edited by miroslav on 07-20-2001 at 09:33 AM

miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

 

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

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Funny you posted this question... I was thinking of asking something along similar lines, like "How much time do you spend recording/performing vs. editing". I've been on both ends of this equation. When I started out, I recorded *everything* whether it sounded good or not. Then slowly but surely I became more discerning and turned into a perfectionist... So much to the point where I think my recordings were pretty good from a technical standpoint, but all the spontaneous elements -- which breathe life into a recording -- were gone. Later, I took it one step beyond [i]that[/i] where I got absolutely [i]nothing[/i] done because I was focused on the wrong things from the beginning: Copying and pasting a guitar riff over and over because I couldn't play it consistently well throughout the whole song, attempting to produce/record a song without having it fully written or fleshed out or "audience tested", comping together syllables of different vocal takes, etc. Yeech -- I still shudder thinking about it... I hated working that way. A couple of years later (and after absorbing many "imperfect", yet still emotionally-moving recordings), I think I'm now at a kind of balance. I'm not really recording anything at the moment because I live in an apartment and I need to keep the noise down... But I figure, until I get myself into a house, I'd like to get better at playing various instruments and continue writing songs. I know that once I get into a house, I'll have a backlog of songs I've really fleshed out and lived with for a while, and my playing will hopefully be to the point where it'll be worth recording. I don't want to go back to editing little bits and pieces of audio together -- I just want to capture some good performances, maybe punch in a note or two here and there, and probably leave in some mistakes if they sound good. In a Les Paul book I read, Chet Atkins said to Les (after the sessions for their "Chester and Lester" album): "What are we gonna do about all those clams?" Les replied, "Leave 'em in -- let 'em know we're human." This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-20-2001 at 09:33 AM
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Hey Rold! I know how you feel. I too would fix the speakers, especially if it's gonna stay like that. In french we have an expression that would directly translate as "butt fucking flies" i.e. spliting hair. The thing is I have enherited this huge supply of tiny, tiny condoms along with dick shrinking pills; ) I just can't help myself. Where do I draw the line? I don't even think I have a pen to do that. But for the same reason I tend to achieve results beyond expectations, often at the expense of my mental health (lack of sleep) but that's another story. Say I have a job that would take 4 hours, I'll take 4 to do it and 2 more (free of charge) just because I know I can and want to do better. It's a personnal quest. But I guess once I will have been doing this for more than 15 years, I will know how to better gage my efforts but for now it's a constant crave to outdo myself and as long as time permits I'll stay on that road, it's been good to me and the clients are smilling. Hopefully I'll reach a point where I can get hired by people who DO need such an attention to details and who are willing to pay for my fly butt fucking. I'm sure you are doing fine and if it's not a problem to you, keep moving those speakers. 'Cause when you nail down that extra mile, it's just feel so good. Emile
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I'm fighting this beast currently. Recording & mixing my own band makes me nutso anal, driving my bandmates crazy as well. It's like letting go of your children, when are they able to go out in the world alone? When I work on other people's projects there's either a deadline (oh that magic word) or a finite amount of time available due to fiscal constraints ($$). There's no room for constant second guessing. So Ya just gotta hit it and quit.
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Good topic! Life is too short to get obsessive about minutiae (though I sometimes do). The question to ask yourself is, at what point do details become minutiae? Two suggestions: (1) Step back from the trees periodically to take a look at the forest. Stop doing the cut-and-paste editing, for instance, get a cup of coffee, and listen to the song all the way through. (2) Make time allocation decisions in light of your goal. If you're angling to impress a major film director with your tracks so as to land the gig, pulling an all-nighter just to get the EQ right is probably not excessive. But going to that amount of trouble if you're going to release the track on mp3.com may not be a good use of your time. That's my 2 cents' worth. --JA
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Hi Folks: Thanks for the responses.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] As far as the wall goes, I've decided to leave it alone until construction time...the control room is perfectly symmetrical side to side anyway; may as well just take the measurements from the one wall and apply to the other...I spent another couple of hours trying to get it right...it's just a drawing glitch that won't happen in construction. Your responses have helped bigtime with my approach to tracking and production...I'm definitely going to try and A/B recordings that were done timely and the same songs with days worth of tweaking...kind of curious as to the difference...I love that Sting quote - hit the nail on the head... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Emile, what is that phrase in french? My wife and her family are from Quebec - I'd love to hit them with that phrase one day.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] hmm...I'm thinking of a specific application for something I'm dealing with on my time-off-studio-design: I'm trying to track an acoustic guitar playing this classical bit in a TINY room. I can't seem to capture the natural brilliance of the acoustic, no matter what I try. I've tried using each of my mics in various stereo setups (incl. MS) with various spacings and directions, I've tried using both my pre's (the avalon ouright KILLS the da7's pres), and various EQ settings, but I can't seem to capture it. I've attempted to play and track this about a dozen times now but it's not happening. What do I do? Keep at it for another dozen + attempts or just move on and blame it on the room? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Can't seem to "draw the line" on this one. What would you do? Thanks again [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Harold
meh
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I gave up with perfection. Hell, when I look in the mirror I find that I am growing more imperfect on almost a daily basis. What is amazing though, is that inspite of this, my playing has improved greatly over the past year or so. Why? I stopped obsessing with perfection and just went back to having fun and allowing my emotions to have their way with my music. The result is increased perfection because I am focused on the creation rather than getting it right. I found I was spending way too much time just trying how to make this or that new program work and laboring over whose opinion was the correct one regarding this or that hardware or technique, which mic, which reverb, ad infinitum. I listened to stuff I did on old analog equipment years ago and even though I could tell the difference sonically, I discovered that I had become a robot. I began listening to old recordings by others found the same difference. The sonic correctness had little to do with my listening pleasure if the music was good. Now, I use the best sounding equipment that I can afford. But I buy what inspires ME not someone whom I don't even know. People say you gotta use this board or you gotta have baffles over here and you know, if I don't listen to them it just doesn't matter except that it saves me time and money if I just rush ahead in ignorance laced with a little common sense and experience. Will I ever have commercially quality products? Hell yes. I sell them at my gigs and in a few stores and people always say they like it and it pays the way so I guess it's commercial quality. Yeah, I'm simplistically synical and probably won't ever hit it big. But I'm havin' the time of my life and feel like I've overcome an addiction. Yes uh. I tell ya uh. I've uh...been set free uh. I've uh been delivered uh from the demon of Gear Aquisition. It's uh not a syndrome like the sec'lar uh humanists 'll tell ya. It's uh the very devil incarnate uh. Yes uh....I've been deeeeeeeliverrrred uh. Now uh...if I can just figgerr out what took that demons place....... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Can you try recording that guitar in another room? Might be as simple as that... best of luck, SC

SC

 

"If the machine produces tranquillity, it's right."

---Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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Perfectionism that leads to a non-outcome is *not* being perfect. Perfectionism as a psychological obsession is just that, no different than any other psychological disfunction. A *true* perfectionist factors in the ultimate desired outcome and then contends with how to get there in the most idealized manner. Which is a trick. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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[quote]Originally posted by b3wiz: [b]Yes uh. I tell ya uh. I've uh...been set free uh. I've uh been delivered uh from the demon of Gear Aquisition. It's uh not a syndrome like the sec'lar uh humanists 'll tell ya. It's uh the very devil incarnate uh. Yes uh....I've been deeeeeeeliverrrred uh. Now uh...if I can just figgerr out what took that demons place....... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] LOL...good comeback, man.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
meh
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[quote]Originally posted by GT40sc: [b]Can you try recording that guitar in another room? Might be as simple as that...best of luck,SC[/b][/quote] The closest room I can use that's not randomly occupied by wife and child is 54 feet away...a little too much cable buzz at that distance for classical. I'm speeding things along getting the construction on the new studio started so i can track in a real room... How's seattle treating you? I was just down there a month ago scouting..awesome city! beats the hell out of vancouver, that's for sure..
meh
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[quote]Originally posted by Cereal: [b]When I'm working on my own stuff I get way too anal. Always hear something wrong in the mix. When I'm doing someone else's music I go with good vibes and as a result their songs always do better and get done sooner. That's life[/b][/quote] Good advice, Cereal... That's one real good point in having a producer. Someone who can say "ENOUGH ALREADY"... I think the quest asymptotically approaches "perfection"...up to a point, an extra amount of work produces increasingly beneficial results...beyond that point, you get a reduced amount of benefit to the result although you may still be increasing the amount of work... This message has been edited by Tedster on 07-21-2001 at 02:11 AM
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]A *true* perfectionist factors in the ultimate desired outcome and then contends with how to get there in the most idealized manner. [/b][/quote] If the desired outcome is a great, *true* sounding track, is it wise to keep trying to attain that goal under much less than ideal circumstances or is it better to lower your expectations? Thanks Chip, Harold
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Quote: "...is it wise to keep trying to attain that goal...or is it better to lower your expectations?" NO. The Zen of the whole thing is simply to RECOGNIZE when you have done your best work; in writing, performing and recording, that guitar part is the best possible you can do IN THAT MOMENT. This is how you identify that crossover line. Because you have done your best, your mind is free to move the song forward. Respect that creative energy, and do not use it to pound your head against the wall. Finish the recording, mix it down and go home. BUT if you come back later and find that guitar part is just not working, then you must be able to analyze WHY this is so. There is a very fine line between something being BETTER or something just being DIFFERENT. If you want a better result, you must change the circumstances of the recording process in some way. In this case, if you cannot run 50 ft of cable at mic level, then take your Avalon into the other room where you will play guitar, and make that long cable run into your control room at line level. hope this helps, SC

SC

 

"If the machine produces tranquillity, it's right."

---Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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[quote]Originally posted by GT40sc: [b]Quote: "...is it wise to keep trying to attain that goal...or is it better to lower your expectations?" NO. The Zen of the whole thing is simply to RECOGNIZE when you have done your best work; in writing, performing and recording, that guitar part is the best possible you can do IN THAT MOMENT. This is how you identify that crossover line. Because you have done your best, your mind is free to move the song forward. Respect that creative energy, and do not use it to pound your head against the wall. Finish the recording, mix it down and go home. BUT if you come back later and find that guitar part is just not working, then you must be able to analyze WHY this is so. There is a very fine line between something being BETTER or something just being DIFFERENT. If you want a better result, you must change the circumstances of the recording process in some way. In this case, if you cannot run 50 ft of cable at mic level, then take your Avalon into the other room where you will play guitar, and make that long cable run into your control room at line level. hope this helps, SC[/b][/quote] Brilliant! I think you just solved my problem - thank you... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Harold - aka "grasshopper" [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
meh
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Hey Harold and all you experts, yes, this thread makes me realize I'm among experts. Harold, have you tried a pair or condensers in ORTF? I'm always having best results with ORTF, I like it's stereo image very much, works great on Hammond too. It's all about music isn't it? Let me give you an example. Recently I had to record a song which is one of the few 'monuments' in our Dutch music history. I record on two inch, so I can't copy and paste. I put the drummer, guitarist and bassplayer in one room. I left the door open and the Grand piano outside in a place near the door opening so the pianist who's also the vocalist could have eye contact with the other guys. The Neumann just in front of his face and we did this song as a 'one taker' a couple of times. I can't explain the feeling, but suddenly you just feel it, this is the one. Afterwards we did a couple of overdubs with Hammond, a couple of nice guitar solo's and weeks later we mixed this song in less than two ours. Well, I've listened to it a number of times now and every time I get tears in my eyes and I'm not ashamed of that! IMHO I think this is how music should be done all the time, but it takes good musicians to do it this way and that can be the problem. I wish you all lots of success and Harold, success with the new room(s). Peace.
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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Oh, and one more thing, nothing can beat a real (grand) piano and a real Hammond!
The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
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[quote]Originally posted by rold: [b] If the desired outcome is a great, *true* sounding track, is it wise to keep trying to attain that goal under much less than ideal circumstances or is it better to lower your expectations? [/b][/quote] Great question. I'm faced with this question on my own productions when I hear some technically incredible musicians on recordings I admire and then I compare it to my own playing (which is simpler, but still gets the song across). I guess the answer depends on the purpose of the finished product. If you were putting something together to compete with the caliber of musicians on a typical Roger Nichols or George Massenberg project, then it's probably not a good idea to lower your expectations... But it does beg the question if the project should be attempted with those expectations in the first place. If you're placing your expectations that high and you don't have access to the same caliber of musicians, equipment, and experience, then maybe it shouldn't be attempted. If it's a project that is something simpler, like, say, Guided By Voices or the Lemonheads, you have a much better chance at finding musicians who can play that style well. That's not saying it's easy doing that style of music well either, and I'm not implying everyone should stick to something relatively musically simplistic... It's just that once you figure out where your limits are, you can determine a comfort zone where you know that certain things you do will be good... And you can push those limits so you can improve. I hope I'm making sense; I'm not sure if even I understand what I'm talking about! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-23-2001 at 11:09 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by spacebass: [b]hey GT40sc....all i got say is WORD! rold good luck and have FUN!!!!!!! as some one once said....."let it be" peace "fuzz"[/b][/quote] Hey Fuzz, Will do - thank you.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Harold
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Hi sign - good to hear from you! How's life treating you in the Netherlands? [quote]Originally posted by sign: [b]Harold, have you tried a pair or condensers in ORTF? I'm always having best results with ORTF, I like it's stereo image very much, works great on Hammond too.[/b][/quote] Not yet - I don't have a pair of stereo mics kicking around, and the nearest rental place is a ferry ride and drive away from here. I haven't started to buy the mics for the new studio yet either; been only concentrating on the design of the studio. I have figured out part of the problem though: since I'm playing the guitar, the "sparkle" I'm hearing is only evident in my listening position, which is perpendicular to the direct-line projection of the instrument. I think when I have a chance again (wife and baby are sleeping) I'm going to try stereo micing the guitar from over my shoulders or my head. I've never tried this approach, but I listened to the instrument from the front (placing the guitar back-down on my lap) and the "magic" just isn't there - it sounds "normal". Have you ever tried micing an acoustic guitar from over top? I don't know if it's just this particular instrument, or all acoustic guitars, but it sounds amazing from over top. There's this liveliness you just don't hear from the front of the instrument. Nonetheless, that was just half of the problem. The room is still tiny, white walled and doesn't translate well. I'm going to have to take SC's advice and run the signal line level with the avalon in the living room - never thought of that before. [quote] [b]I can't explain the feeling, but suddenly you just feel it, this is the one.[/b][/quote] I have experienced that feeling ONCE - 12 years ago. I was in my first band, we were practising this one song we didn't think very much of, and for a split second - BANG! - it came and went. I don't know what happened; I can't describe the feeling but it was pure magic. It lasted maybe about 3 or 4 seconds and we all stopped and looked at each other completely stupified. We were all completely sober - only drug in us was coffee. It was pure *magic*; none of us have experienced it since and we all still play our instruments. Santana talks about that experience too. He says the reason he's so into his instrument is that same feeling - it comes and goes, but when it hits you it hits you hard. I wish it came and went; I have put well over 4 thousand hours into playing my guitar and that feeling lasted 3 or 4 seconds. I wish it would come back. [quote] [b]Well, I've listened to it a number of times now and every time I get tears in my eyes and I'm not ashamed of that![/b][/quote] You definitely shouldn't be ashamed of that. On the contrary, you should be proud: good music is meant as an assault on people's emotions. If it hits you hard then you have one up on everyone that treats this like a business or a mundane experience. That sensitivity ultimately makes you a better engineer and producer than most of us, and a pleasure like that is the most powerful drug in the world! [quote] [b]I wish you all lots of success and Harold, success with the new room(s). [/b][/quote] Thanks man - and you too! Like I said - you ever need anything from Canada, just let me know and I will do what I can. All the best, Harold
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[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] Great question. I'm faced with this question on my own productions when I hear some technically incredible musicians on recordings I admire and then I compare it to my own playing (which is simpler, but still gets the song across).[/b][/quote] Don't those people just drive you nuts? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Putting so much effort into playing an instrument only for someone to come along and make it seem like a walk in the park...frustrating!...lol [quote] [b]I guess the answer depends on the purpose of the finished product. If you were putting something together to compete with the caliber of musicians on a typical Roger Nichols or George Massenberg project, then it's probably not a good idea to lower your expectations... But it does beg the quesion if the project should be attempted with those expectations in the first place. If you're placing your expectations that high and you don't have access to the same caliber of musicians, equipment, and experience, then maybe it shouldn't be attempted.[/b][/quote] I'm really just trying to lay down what my ears hear. If the finished product can compete with the likes of major productions like george or roger's - great (probably not likely though ... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]) [quote] [b]If it's a project that is something simpler, like, say, Guided By Voices or the Lemonheads, you have a much better chance at finding musicians who can play that style well. That's not saying it's easy doing that style of music well either, and I'm not implying everyone should stick to something relatively musically simplistic... It's just that once you figure out where your limits are, you can determine a comfort zone where you know that certain things you do will be good... And you can push those limits so you can improve.[/b][/quote] I hope I'm making sense; I'm not sure if even I understand what I'm talking about! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img][/B][/QUOTE] I understand what you're saying - no worries...I appreciate the input and food for thought. Thanks pops.. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Harold
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Hey Rold and all, indeed a great thread! The expression I was referring to is "Enculer des mouches" as in "J'ai une tendance à enculer les mouches". Which means "I tend to butt fuck flies". Emile
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LOL - your timing youldn't have been more perfect - the in-laws are here..I'm going to have to go test this on them... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks Emile - I owe you one! Harold
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