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Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433697 11/12/03 02:19 PM
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DallasPA Offline OP
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Greetings,

For at least 5 years Pro Tools has been the software of choice when it comes to digital recording. In light of that I would like to know what companies/products do you feel could have given Pro Tools some serious competition, and what mistakes did these companies make that prevented them from cutting into the Digidesign market share.

In addition I would like to talk about the current/new companies that might offer some future competition, and what these companies/products must do in order to be a serious threat to Pro Tools.

I will reserve most of my opinions until later, but for now I will say; IMHO Any company that doesn't produce quality dedicated hardware, mainly DSP cards and control surfaces, has a snowballs chance of challenging Pro Tools. It might look good, and or sound great, but a totally native system will not become the tool of choice in this business any time soon. For both technical and pyschological reasons.

P.S. I don't believe that Pro Tools is the ultimate DAW on the face of the planet, just the most widely accepted. I do believe that someone has the potential to take down this juggernaut, the underlying question is how????????

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433698 11/12/03 04:23 PM
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uh huh...


So What ARE We Gonna Do With 8 Tracks...Fire the Arranger?
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433699 11/12/03 07:58 PM
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I don't know why you don't want to consider native systems. I think is the future and now since G5 is out a good native system can have a performace like at least an HD2.
I'm seeing Logic is getting out users of digi world.
Until two years ago who wanted a system where mixing without external console he had only PT and until this date who used old 24mix versions lived like in an "happy island" with his TDM plugs etc. After, when HD was released digi users had to do with HD plugs OS9 release, then HD OSX release and now, that motorola has stopped cpu production, HD OSX accell release plugs.
I think it's better to live in the hell.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433700 11/12/03 08:02 PM
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IMO such a compagny first should be able to deliver new products on a regular basis. Often someting new came on to the marked, looked gread and was equal to Digidesign hard- and software, but a half year later Digi brought out the next step of Digi Hardware, while the other system did not have anything to compete. (As ie with Paris and others).

IMO a System that could compete could be pyramix, many advantages. But as long as they do not have support for important plugins and professional controllers, Synth Integration and Support for Apple, I would not use it. But I think it has potential to get the next industrie standart.

Important to me is a system where one can record to, mix and do sounddesign stuff. At the moment for all the 3 domains in one box there is no competion for Protools.

And I think that in the next years clearly Native Systems can not come close to DSP accelerated system.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433701 11/12/03 08:09 PM
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DallasPA Offline OP
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Inness,

I'm not against native systems, but look at your suggestion. Do you think a native DAW on a G5 would out-perform the same G5 with 4 to 5 PT DSP cards once the software is optmized for a G5 on OSX? I don't think so. In my opinion you must offer a system which sounds better, is faster, more stable, and has better functions and more latent power before the Digi house of cards begins to fall. And its going to be very difficult for a comp stock out of the box to compete against the same comp with souped up DSP cards.

Let me restate my thinking I don't believe any Native system can compete with Digi at a level to dominate their market share or cause their demise. Mainly because a funtioning DSP based DAw will always have more horses under the hood if the two are using the same computers!!!!

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433702 11/12/03 09:19 PM
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Daniel,

I agree Emu had a good start but I believe any company that is serious about competing with PT needs a 5 to 7 year plan. During this time-frame I would think you would need at least 3 new hardware releases and many software revisions before you could really close the gap.

Emu's Fatal Flaws

1) No dedicated quality motorized control surface-that was a bust for me. And really the only reason why I refused to buy the system.

2) Seems like Emu was looking for a 3 year plan rather than the 7 years I suggested. So they really bailed out far to early. Word of mouth was just catching on and everybody was talking about the sound of the system. I really think a lot of people were waiting in the wings to see what they were going to do next (like replacing the ugly a## control surface) before dropping 5K for the system.

3)Not spending some bucks partnering with other companies to develope quality plugins.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433703 11/12/03 09:41 PM
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I do think that Paris came closest to playing the same game as Digi. I certainly loved how it sounded, liked the VST compatibility, loved that it was cheaper than TDM, but really lamented that they didn't have much of a development and support base behind it all.

I really don't think that anyone, new or already established, is going to bet their market share on the R&D work and costs it would take to come out with a competing DSP-based system. Just like ADAT had a limited shelf life once hard-disk-based recording began to become viable, I do think that dedicated hardware DSP-based recording has a shelf life, although the end isn't quite in sight yet.

However, we're pretty evidently past the high noon of hardware DSP-based recording. The biggest hurdles of native-based systems, namely stability and DSP power, are beginning to be overcome, at least for typical users. DSP limitations in my native system have not stopped me from doing the work I need to do. Latency, however, remains unconquered, although things like the MOTU PCI-424 CueMix do provide something of a workaround.

My point? By the time another company got a hardware-based competitor to PT HD to market, it'd be obsolete, and possibly, depending on the development of computing power, irrelevant.

Digi managed to achieve critical mass in terms of userbase and product development at a time (the early-mid 90's) when there was no other real game in town. Native wasn't really viable for audio except as a curiousity. ADAT and 2" and other tape-based alternatives weren't really direct competitors. Now, with the proliferation of native and the industry-standard nature of Pro Tools, those conditions don't exist any more.

No one else is willing to corporately take that kind of risk for little or no potential gain.


Current live rig: Roland RD700SX, Hammond XK-3 with Leslie System 21, and Muse Receptor. Also a Nord Stage 76 other times instead. And a Roland FP-7 for jazz gigs.
HOME: Kawai MP8 + a bunch of VI's.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433704 11/12/03 10:36 PM
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Zake,

You might be right, but I think we will be using DSP cards for a long time to come. A full blown HD3 probably has about 200 to 500 times the processing power of the newest top of the line DP G5's. I dont think we will see that type of power in a stock PC or MAC until somebody develops a bioprocessor 20 years from now!!!!!!!!!!

And if the DSP trend lasts that long its a certainty that other systems will enter the market. Pyramix, as mentioned above, is a DSP based DAW running on PC's.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433705 11/13/03 02:45 AM
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Those numbers there are made up. Silly.


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Phil Mann
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433706 11/13/03 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:
A full blown HD3 probably has about 200 to 500 times the processing power of the newest top of the line DP G5's. I dont think we will see that type of power in a stock PC or MAC until somebody develops a bioprocessor 20 years from now!!!!!!!!!!
Lay off the crackpipe. Because you are talking complete nonsense.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433707 11/13/03 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:
[QB A full blown HD3 probably has about 200 to 500 times the processing power of the newest top of the line DP G5's. [/QB]
Ah yes, I remember it well.

In his 2002 address, the Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham proudly talked about the pivotal work in biological work and environmental research that the $25,000,000 Pacific Northwest National Labs Supercomputer would be undertaking, but added in a barely-heard aside :'I'm buggered if I can see how someone with a $15,000 Protools rig will poop on us from a great height us in the supercomputer rankings in just 12 months time...."

You nerk.


J. Eliot Howe (Chief Gear-Pimp)

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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433708 11/13/03 06:21 AM
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Hmmm... Interesting topic.

Digi is so embedded in pro audio it will be hard to knock them off. There's just too many pro studios using it right now. Once a "standard" is established not many people wanna screw around with it. With that said...

Steinberg is positioning (I believe) itself to do just that. Let me explain...

1. Nuendo is rapidly gaining market share and the trust of the pro audio industry. In a couple of years who knows where that product will be. It's I/O hardware (and actually many other mfg's I/0 hardware) is on par with the HD stuff. Sound quality is not the issue. The issue in the pro audio world is working with a computer that will behave like a hardware mixer during tracking and or mixing, effect sending and such. That's where PT grabbed it's market share.

2. Steinberg has the R&D money and coders skilled enough to keep their development moving along at a rapid pace. They are in the best position of any DAW mfg to do battle with Digi.

3. It wouldn't surprise me to see Steinberg come out with a DSP card system to compliment Nuendo in the next year or three. Again, they have the money and the engineering skills to do something like that if they want. I think that will be the next logical step for Nuendo (or whatever they call the DSP version), a "higher end" proprietary app with DSP cards.

People talk about PT like it's technology from Mars or something. It's simply PCI cards with multiple DSP chip options. Bottom line, PT is a good software app with a modular digital mixer built on the PCI card format. Plain and simple. Most any company with the mindset and R&D money could develop something similar. Steinberg's "Nuendo DSP" would be an immediate hit due to the great software front-end. I'm surprised they haven't done it already.

Keep you eyes on Germany. Paris could have taken a huge chunk from PT but they didn't. I think Steinberg will finish what they started.

Case in point. Digi now allows using the host computers dsp for effect processing. Now why the heck would they do that? PT users always talk about how much higher quality TDM plugs are. So why would they wanna run MAS, DX or VST? Strange? Digi did it to take a slap at native's ever growing popularity. And still no automatic delay compensation? Weird development path huh?

Digi's eventually going down.

Lawrence

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433709 11/13/03 03:37 PM
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DallasPA Offline OP
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Granted,

The numbers may be inflated, but this is what Digi claims. Not me!!!!

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433710 11/13/03 03:50 PM
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DallasPA Offline OP
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Ohhh,

There may be some hardware engineers out there that can give us a real world estimate of the difference in processing power between a full blown HD3 PT rig and the best available DP G5.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433711 11/13/03 06:51 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:
A full blown HD3 probably has about 200 to 500 times the processing power of the newest top of the line DP G5's. I dont think we will see that type of power in a stock PC or MAC until somebody develops a bioprocessor 20 years from now!!!!!!!!!!
Lay off the crackpipe. Because you are talking complete nonsense.
Complete nonsense?? It's the biggest joke I ever heard on these forums.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433712 11/13/03 07:13 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
IMO such a compagny first should be able to deliver new products on a regular basis. Often someting new came on to the marked, looked gread and was equal to Digidesign hard- and software, but a half year later Digi brought out the next step of Digi Hardware, while the other system did not have anything to compete. (As ie with Paris and others).

IMO a System that could compete could be pyramix, many advantages. But as long as they do not have support for important plugins and professional controllers, Synth Integration and Support for Apple, I would not use it. But I think it has potential to get the next industrie standart.

Important to me is a system where one can record to, mix and do sounddesign stuff. At the moment for all the 3 domains in one box there is no competion for Protools.

And I think that in the next years clearly Native Systems can not come close to DSP accelerated system.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
Dear Daniel,

I feel very sorry to say but you don't know what you are talking about.

If digi is coming "again" with a "new" card then they are already old in comparison with the competition.

Native is already the future.
And if you wanna have special plugins like compressors from UA, then you can buy a dsp card from UA.
Because of the piracy, plugin makers like to sell their software with "key" dsp cards.

b.t.w. what's so special with digi's plugins???
Most of them sound like shit or worse.

If digidesign didn't sell their overpriced cards in the past, when native was not ready, nobody should using protools software right know.

Nuendo, logic, Live, these programs have so much more to offer in combination with a G5 or a dual pc with a couple of normal priced dsp cards from UA or TC.

If something is new in software it never is from digi. Yes this is what they tell you in a demonstration but if you look further then your nose is, you will be surprised how far others are already.

I think that protools will loose a big piece of the market for 2 reasons.

01 - Mixing properly, only in protools, with a procontrol is not possible.
Even the HD sounds flat and 2dimensional.
So that means that a lot of "protools studio's" will have all the same flat sound, which is the case right know.
I'm a mastering engineer and I receive weekly a few HD mixes to master.

There is hope, only if you route it through a analog mixer.
Internally mixing in protools is a joke.
Comparing with for example nuendo the difference is bigger then big.

When engineers will hear this difference, the more engineers wil stop with digi and go over to a better sounding system.

02. If digi still thinks they can ask these overpriced prices, without giving the customer the quality they think they pay for the customer will look further and find out that he can save a lot of money.

digi can survive if they lower the price and put up the quality of their systems.

I talked this week with 2 "dedicated" digi users.
They are trying right know to sell their digi stuff to change to a nuendo system.
Why? because they are tired of mixing without a good feeling.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433713 11/13/03 08:52 PM
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DallasPA Offline OP
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Errol,

If you have to spend $1000 a pop for UAD or TC DSP card, are we truly talking native systems still???!!!!

My point is I don't see us getting away from DSP cards within the next 5 years!!!!!

And no one answered the question about the processing power of an HD3 VS DP G5.

I'm a PT/Mix user my self but lets say with the HD3 you can still have lets say 9 DSP cards in a break out box. Each of these cards on average will have lets say 8 DSP chips. That gives you on average 72 dedicated chips for processing. Versuses 2 G5 DP's which the PT rig also has. I don't know how big of a difference this equates to, but it has to be one that is substantial.

And even if Apple can design a 5gig processor using silcon based processors, which I doubt, in the next 5 years. Will the current I/O structure and memory be able to handle a Quad 5 gig processor. And if this does happen, will 20 gig of stock processing be enough to bring a native DAW to even processing ground with a DSP dependent DAW.

Yes and No, have you noticed as we get more power the software gets more complex, and the plugins do too. With that being said, I do believe we will see awesome stand alone native systems. But I believe the DSP based systems will be unbelievable and have more then a slight advantage on the DAWS.

These DSP companies (like PT, TC, UAD) will have to develope new chips which will outstrap the processors placed on Macs and PC's.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433714 11/13/03 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:


I'm a PT/Mix user my self but lets say with the HD3 you can still have lets say 9 DSP cards in a break out box. Each of these cards on average will have lets say 8 DSP chips. That gives you on average 72 dedicated chips for processing. Versuses 2 G5 DP's which the PT rig also has. I don't know how big of a difference this equates to, but it has to be one that is substantial.

There's a big difference between a DSP chip and a computer processor chip. his is why a DSP chip is relatively inexpensive, whereas computer processors are not.

This is why the mixer i pro-tols can take up a couple of DSP chips. wheras creating a 48 channel mixer with a bunch of auxes doesn't even create a blip o theprocessing meter in a native DAW.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433715 11/13/03 09:09 PM
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Delete.

Double post


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President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433716 11/13/03 09:21 PM
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Quote:
...but lets say with the HD3 you can still have lets say 9 DSP cards in a break out box.
Well, it's no longer a HD3. It becomes an HD10.

If you really need that much processing power, then IMHO you are doing something wrong on the way in. In which case no amount of processing power will help you.

And don't let's get started on what audio sounds like using nine DSP cards without automatic system wide delay compensation.


Yorik
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433717 11/13/03 10:02 PM
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Never stated that a single DSP chip was even a match for a G3 motorola ####, my point is the sheer number of DSP chips on these cards must account for something. If not why are we paying PT 5K for a brand new card, maybe a company should copy the printed circuit board layout. Sell the circuit boards and we can add the chips ourselves. LOL.

And as stated, I use mix not HD so I don't know how many or what type of chips are on an HD card. Our how many cards a HD can support, people call their systems Mix3 and have 6,7,8,9 cards.

So I guess the general consensus is DSP chips are worthless, but thats why TC & UAD have released cards.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433718 11/13/03 10:06 PM
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Quote:
If not why are we paying PT 5K for a brand new card
Ah! Now you are asking the right question.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433719 11/14/03 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:
If not why are we paying PT 5K for a brand new card, maybe a company should copy the printed circuit board layout.
And as stated, I use mix not HD so I don't know how many or what type of chips are on an HD card.
Dallas. a tip from a 10 years protools user.
Don't exchange to HD.
It cost you much more money then in the past and you will be very disapointed.
Same sound (a little better) same flatnes and same time to get a proper mix. (read to many days to spend on a mix)

And this is what I also said, the dsp cards from digi are to expensive.
And also the are in 2 years time less tehn half the price what you paied for.

Still a 2hand UA or TC is more then half the price after how many years already now.

I think that native is already the future but again, because the plugin makers like to protect their software, dsp cards will stay for a while.

Otherwise their software will be cracked.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433720 11/15/03 12:25 AM
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I have never used a native system that compares with Pro Tools for mixing. If we're talking MIDI, then that's another conversation. I've used DP many times and it ALWAYS slows down when the mix gets busy. They crash, or become sluggish. I'm not really interested in printing effects in the middle of a mix. I want them live, because they are all subject to change until the moment the mix goes down. With PT, If you want more processing, you can rent or buy more.

Show me a native system with the processing capability of my 5 card Mix system and I'm there!

One day native will be the best way to go. But not now.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433721 11/15/03 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Dear Daniel,

I feel very sorry to say but you don't know what you are talking about.

Dear Errol

I could say the same if I read your comments. But I probably wouldn't have written it because because I respect the opignions of other engineers, even if they are the complete oposites of mine.

Quote:
01 - Mixing properly, only in protools, with a procontrol is not possible.
Even the HD sounds flat and 2dimensional.
So that means that a lot of "protools studio's" will have all the same flat sound, which is the case right know.
I'm a mastering engineer and I receive weekly a few HD mixes to master.

There is hope, only if you route it through a analog mixer.
Internally mixing in protools is a joke.
Comparing with for example nuendo the difference is bigger then big.
Those points are all just pure plain wrong imo. Can I do something to prove the oposite ? ( I mean this seriously). I have two old projects which have been mixed by two different engineers, one mixed on PT one on a Neve VR. One Project was a Jazz Project, one a Film Score. Do you think you could tell which mixes are the PT's and which the analogs? (Although I would not be sure if I could find the masters of both, I'd had to ask the client...)

Best
Daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433722 11/15/03 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Those points are all just pure plain wrong imo. Can I do something to prove the oposite ? ( I mean this seriously). I have two old projects which have been mixed by two different engineers, one mixed on PT one on a Neve VR. One Project was a Jazz Project, one a Film Score. Do you think you could tell which mixes are the PT's and which the analogs? (Although I would not be sure if I could find the masters of both, I'd had to ask the client...)

Best
Daniel
They just did something like this on the PSW. Same song. One analogu one PT mix.

It was quite easy to recognize the harsh sound that PT's inflicts on audio.

So, if you want to repeat the same test, go right ahead. But you need to use the same master tapes.

I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433723 11/15/03 06:09 AM
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I've got my money on Nuendo right now. A lot of Nashville engineers are looking to it, partly to get off what I call the "pro tools treadmill", and partly because it just plain SOUNDS better. No question about it. As far as real world power goes, I use a P4 system with 1 UAD, and routinely do 40+ track mixes with dozens of plug ins without proc power beeing an issue. for tht matter, my plug in count is better on my laptop than the 24 mix+ PT system I use sometimes. But in the end, it's all about the sound.


Chuck Moore
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.
Youīre right Henchi - itīs better!


Wolfgang Eller
SRS Mastering/Germany
http://www.srs-mastering.de
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433725 11/15/03 01:13 PM
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Alndln Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DallasPA:
Do you think a native DAW on a G5 would out-perform the same G5 with 4 to 5 PT DSP cards once the software is optmized for a G5 on OSX?
Who says they can't use a bunch of UAD's or Powercore's and whatever else is coming.Most projects these days can be handled natively anyway and they already do,so that's the bottom line.Digi doesn't have the only DSP cards anymore either.I think the issues you are bringing up about native stability and power are quite outdated.Did somebody drag this thread up from a couple years ago?


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433726 11/15/03 01:15 PM
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Is this Tron's evil twin? Yin/Yang?


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433727 11/15/03 01:28 PM
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Quote:
They just did something like this on the PSW. Same song. One analogu one PT mix.

It was quite easy to recognize the harsh sound that PT's inflicts on audio.

So, if you want to repeat the same test, go right ahead. But you need to use the same master tapes.

I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.
Not really. I think that comparision of that song you describe (it was the tread from prduceher, right?) was in many forums. I and most others very clearly prefered one mix over theother. And this was the ProTools mix.

In my case in both projects all listener choosed the proTools mix to to be far superiour. Both where bigger projets, and the proTools mixes where the one choosen to be on the CD.

I really don't know where the frustration of people like you come from in regards to protools. It is a digital system like any other. It's mixbus doesn't have a sound. I wish people would stop that nonsence bashing by just about everything with the name Digidesign on it.

On many projects I have the choice to mix on either a Neve VR, a SSL 4000G+ or a Protools HD. And basically allways my choice is the PT Room. But honestly it could be every digital system, thats just what I prefear for mixing, better total recall (very important to me), and mostly more transparent mixes. Yes, I like the sound of the Neve VR, as I liked the sound of a Studer 820, but in digital world, with good converters, the sound is just much closer to the original, and thats what I like with digital. It is like a mirror. Record your signal in a good way, and thats what you get.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433728 11/15/03 02:21 PM
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For certain clients Soundscape 32 is already a great alternative choice for protools as its mixing and audio capabilities are also based around DSP cards.

Soundscape Website

Regards

Wolfram

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433729 11/15/03 08:24 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:

Not really. I think that comparision of that song you describe (it was the tread from prduceher, right?) was in many forums. I and most others very clearly prefered one mix over theother. And this was the ProTools mix.
The funny thing is, that it was pretty much only PT users that prefferred the PT mix, as the results showed. I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.

I guess some people prefer that kind of sound. I don't.

And I guess that's why so many records are sounding like crap these days, because there's alot of people that have only ever used PT's in the engineering seat.
To me it's like growing up and only ever eating coolwhip. Then when you taste real whipping cream you don't like it. Even though real whipping cream tastes better than coolwhip.

BTW. Have you ever tried any other digital platforms?
Radar, Nuendo, Fairlight, Soundscape?


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433730 11/15/03 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang Eller:
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.
Youīre right Henchi - itīs better!
You wish
:p


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433731 11/15/03 08:37 PM
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Quote:
I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
/QB]
I have found the exact opposite Tight bottom Smooth top end.
IMO if you can't get HD @96k to sound good brother, your doing something wrong.
I guess it's the old Coke VS Pepsi debate.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433732 11/15/03 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Quote:
I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
/QB]
I have found the exact opposite Tight bottom Smooth top end.
IMO if you can't get HD @96k to sound good brother, your doing something wrong.
I guess it's the old Coke VS Pepsi debate.
I'm just telling you what I heard. And these were blind tests.

And I can get my Fairlight to sound great at 48k.
\:D


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433733 11/15/03 09:18 PM
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Quote:
The funny thing is, that it was pretty much only PT users that prefferred the PT mix, as the results showed. I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
It was shown in I think 4 forums, and only in 3 of the 4 people prefeared the PT Mix. But anyway, even if you never believe me that, it is not because of PT or not PT, it is because of different mixers. Period.

Quote:

And I guess that's why so many records are sounding like crap these days, because there's alot of people that have only ever used PT's in the engineering seat.
Not me for sure, and not many others.

Quote:

BTW. Have you ever tried any other digital platforms?
Radar, Nuendo, Fairlight, Soundscape?
Radar is a multitrack recorder, not a DAW. its sound depends on the converter. I have not used Nuendo, Fairlight, only a few time Soundscape. I used Paris on a regular basis and also Pyramix. I used Sony DMR 100. Whats your point? All the system sounded as good, as the converters before were.

I don't think that this discussion leads to something. I don't have a problem with people that criticies something. But I think it is annoying to deal with people that are just stupidly bashing products whitout any scientific input.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433734 11/15/03 10:03 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:

But I think it is annoying to deal with people that are just stupidly bashing products whitout any scientific input.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
You can't base spomething like aduio quality on science. Anything can look good on paper.

I use PT's every day. I have used numerous other digital systems, and therefore have a good frame of reference.
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433735 11/15/03 10:32 PM
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Quote:
You can't base spomething like aduio quality on science. Anything can look good on paper.

I use PT's every day. I have used numerous other digital systems, and therefore have a good frame of reference.
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
Thats fine with me:-)

Daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433736 11/16/03 02:44 AM
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Quote:
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
I guess that's why more people use PT than every other DAW on the market combined.
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
Logic is the only other sequencer that even comes close and it's really only good for me because I can use Protools DSP/Plug-ins and I/O with it.
OK flame away I can take it.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433737 11/16/03 03:06 AM
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Topic: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?



Every one


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433738 11/16/03 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Quote:
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
I guess that's why more people use PT than every other DAW on the market combined.
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
Logic is the only other sequencer that even comes close and it's really only good for me because I can use Protools DSP/Plug-ins and I/O with it.
OK flame away I can take it.
Each and every statement us just simply not true.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433739 11/16/03 03:47 AM
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Well That's a good come back. The truth hurts Digi is number one.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433740 11/16/03 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Well That's a good come back. The truth hurts Digi is number one.
Yes, well I'm sure tascam sold more portastudio's than Otari did 24 tracks.

Thgat doesn't make it better, now does it.

Next you'll try to convince me that a plug-in reverb sounds as good or better than hardware.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433741 11/16/03 11:03 AM
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Alndln Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
I have nothing against PT at all,but those statements are waaaaayy out of whack.1)Even Sonar will take as many i/0 as you can throw at it.2)McDSP doesn't make me jealous.3)Even though you can hook up a Magma box full of UAD and powercores to any DAW,even a PT rig suffers from CPU stress so that's nonsense.Plus in the real world were dealing with native along with cards.4)Since it lacks things like direct VI support,PDC,pedestrian midi implentation and a host of other goodies due to it's post nature your probably right on your last point.Again,I have nothing gainst PT other than it doesn't suit my needs, but the so called strenghts your pointing out are non exsistant.I don't use a Mac or Logic but if I did I know where I'd head straight to.PT is basically a digital tape recorder with nice editing software that's beggining to fall way behind the competition feature-wise.Sure they were there first and are firmly implanted in major studios,but if they just came on the scene today...............


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433742 11/17/03 06:57 AM
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Would be interesting if some company released a box that was reversed engineered of what a TDM card did, better yet, make it firewire compatable, and you could use it with any computer/software. All digi plugs available that way...

Also, I remember back in 1991 dreaming a scenerio where the major computer OS companies bought up sequencer companies to incoeporate them into the OS.
I got a lot of laughs from that one. Now, Apple with Logic is not incorporated, but what would happen if Microsoft "absorbs" Avid? Now, rethink. Microsoft "absorbs" Steinberg?

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433743 11/17/03 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Electrox:
Would be interesting if some company released a box that was reversed engineered of what a TDM card did, better yet, make it firewire compatable
Works with just about everything but PT. http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCoreFireWire


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433744 11/17/03 06:14 PM
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Powercore has only a fraction of the DSP of one Digi Accel card. Isuppose it's OK to use if you can't aford Protools.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433745 11/17/03 06:28 PM
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And there is a world difference between truley DSP orientet Systems (as ProTools, Paris, Pyramix), and Native Systems whit additional third party DSP Cards (as Powercore). The point is, that you need to go from the CPU to the DSP and back while mixing. The typical buffer settings for this are mostly 512 samples, and thats not really acceptable (even with latency compensation). (It is quite the same as if you want to have HTDM native plugins in protools, either do everything native, or everything with a DSP System, but the problems introduced by a mixage of both is not really solved this day.

Daniel Dettwiler
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433746 11/17/03 09:38 PM
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Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems. Have you noticed the latency numbers on the powercore stuff? If you've never used a TDM/HD PT rig, you may not even be aware of their best feature, which is incredibly low latency- measured in single samples, as opposed to milliseconds with other systems.

I do agree that Digi has been slow to improve on the features front lately. All their energy has been going into hardware, and the software is suffering as a result.

The key to any other system truly competing with Digi will be eliminating latency to the point where you can monitor post-insert and post-fader as you're tracking, like on any other real mixer.

If we're talking about sequencers, plenty of the apps out there are already established and working better than PT... DP and Logic come to mind as great sequencers.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433747 11/18/03 04:59 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems.
Too bad they still can't do a sample accurate synch.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433748 11/18/03 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems.
I guess it would be a deal killer with software that doesn't support PDC,but since I monitor through my soft at 2.9ms throughout with PDC and live input ect.,I have no latencey issues to speak of.I can do most projects natively at 32+,DSP cards are just cake after that,not to mention FX Teleport http://www.fxteleport.com/ .Again,I'm not the one here knocking PT,the Accel based systems are really nice,but Digi is not offerring me any more power or quality then I can obtain elswhere if I choose,or at least more than I need.For me it comes down to software environment/limitations and compatibility(what's availible to that platform).There's no shortage of power or quality for a variety of platforms so it's more a matter of aligning yourself with what your needs require.If only we had these choices in the early 70's...................


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433749 11/18/03 12:42 PM
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To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)

The low latency argument for DSP is also valid. I a) consider 2.9ms not acceptable for drums and percussion recording and b)
2,9ms (at 44.1k) is not the reality-value for Native DAWS. The guy above doesnīt count in the latencys of the AD/DA Conversion which ads up dependingly on the choosen Converter. The value also implements using the lowest possible buffersetting, which is not a real-world buffer-setting. Most people still have to deal with at least 512 samples. If you want to track 24 tracks at the same time 24 bit ,96k see a native DAW crying at 64samples buffers for doing the job right.

DSP Expansionscards ala Powercore are a great solution for mixing, but not tracking. The possible appearing conflicts between different PC-Components are preprogrammed and sometimes need a lot of investigation time before the things work 100%. I donīt have this time, I want to record now.

Thats one of the reasons why I chose for a DSP system ( Soundscape ) which has an overall AD/DA in/out latency of 61 samples. I can have realtime punch-out like in the good old tape-days and insert most of the plug-ins without adding further latency. And the sync-features works 100% aswell.

Regards

Wolfram

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433750 11/18/03 01:43 PM
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Any crap software below 100$ lixe magix (it's a crap sold in supermarkets) can do more than Pro Tools
Pro Tools is dead. It's paleontology, it's a bad past nightmare, it's a fooling in your mind.
Open your mind, create better sounding music.


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433751 11/18/03 01:50 PM
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----------------
Any crap software below 100$ lixe magix (it's a crap sold in supermarkets) can do more than Pro Tools

----------------
LOL (especially with the picture on the left, fits great)

You are not serious, right ?

Wolfram

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433752 11/18/03 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
The low latency argument for DSP is also valid. I a) consider 2.9ms not acceptable for drums and percussion
I do it all the time,and with headphones.The drummers aren't compensating or complaining.I also track guitar with Amplitube that way.I am a fanatic about timing,if there was even a hint of latencey or delay I'd wouldn't be looking for another solution,I'd have it already.


"A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows"
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433753 11/18/03 03:38 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
Dear Daniel,

I feel very sorry to say but you don't know what you are talking about.

Dear Errol

I could say the same if I read your comments. But I probably wouldn't have written it because because I respect the opignions of other engineers, even if they are the complete oposites of mine.

Quote:
01 - Mixing properly, only in protools, with a procontrol is not possible.
Even the HD sounds flat and 2dimensional.
So that means that a lot of "protools studio's" will have all the same flat sound, which is the case right know.
I'm a mastering engineer and I receive weekly a few HD mixes to master.

There is hope, only if you route it through a analog mixer.
Internally mixing in protools is a joke.
Comparing with for example nuendo the difference is bigger then big.
Those points are all just pure plain wrong imo. Can I do something to prove the oposite ? ( I mean this seriously). I have two old projects which have been mixed by two different engineers, one mixed on PT one on a Neve VR. One Project was a Jazz Project, one a Film Score. Do you think you could tell which mixes are the PT's and which the analogs? (Although I would not be sure if I could find the masters of both, I'd had to ask the client...)

Best
Daniel
Daniel, dont get me wrong.
I'm not blaming you as a person.

But you are dead wrong if you say that digi is always the first with new features.
That has nothing to do with no respect for other engineers but it has to do with facts.
And what you are saying is not true.

Also about listening to a protools mix or a neve mix is something I already have heard.

I can tell you exactly when a mix is totally digital or analog mixed.

And I also can hear if it's done with a protools mix.

And I'm talking about a mix which is fully mixed in protools.

It's just like henchman says. It sounds bad to me and I'm serious thinking that a lot of top 40 productions which are made in protools are soundi ng bad.

I'm selling my protools mix system because when I bought a second hand tascam M3500 my sound was improving in a way I never heard with my protools rig.

Same mix in a M3500 sounds already so much richer and opener with so much more detail then the same mix with my protools system.

So if you tell me that you don't like a mix from a Neve and choose for a protools mix then what can I say?

Youre right????


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433754 11/18/03 04:19 PM
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Numbers, buddies, numbers.
I'm serious. maybe a little bit exagerated, but seriously, today, you can do 100 times more than pro tools with:
Logic 6
Nuendo
Creamware
Soundscape
Samplitude
and many many other DAW,
for 1/10 of the fooling price.


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433755 11/18/03 05:06 PM
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I guess for me it comes down to the price. Since my studio's only been open for a year or so, I'd rather spend my money on hardware that doesn't go out of date so quickly. I want to spend my money on highend mics, mic preamps, monitors, compressors, reverb etc. I'd probably be using this stuff twenty years from now. Computer hardware your lucky to get 5 years out of till you have to upgrade.
I'm not knocking PT at all. I would love to have a kick ass TDM system. It's just not really needed right now. I seem to be able to do everything I need to with Logic and Sonar3. Maybe I'll go that route in the future. The way computer technology advances, I just can't decide when I'd take the plunge.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433756 11/18/03 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)
I find using PT's to record NEVER stress free. Always problems. Plug-ins suddenly going sideways. System not locking to picture. Losing preferences.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433757 11/18/03 07:24 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
Numbers, buddies, numbers.
I'm serious. maybe a little bit exagerated, but seriously, today, you can do 100 times more than pro tools with:
Logic 6
Nuendo
Creamware
Soundscape
Samplitude
and many many other DAW,
for 1/10 of the fooling price.
I know a studio in holland who uses nuendo.
It's a good studio.
they also have a protools rig just for clients who thinks they need it.

he says in a intervieuw that if he has to work in protools he feels it's like working in the very past. It's workin with a huge handicap.

Also soundwise it's a handicap. So what they are doing is bringing it a.s.a.p. into nuendo.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433758 11/19/03 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Daniel, dont get me wrong.
I'm not blaming you as a person.
I see. No offense taken:-)

Quote:

But you are dead wrong if you say that digi is always the first with new features.
Did I really said it this way? (I did not go back to check...). Anyway of course that would not be true and probably what I wrote in that point came over in a wrong direction. There are lots of point which I think should be in a professional DAW which are not implementated in PT (auto delay compensation, snip and insert time... ), no question. What I basically meant was that Digidesign is able to develop their hardware so that they can bring out new Systems on a regular timebasis. And imo thats why they are always in front of "only" native systems. In two years there will be faster g5's or maybe g6's, whatever, but Digidesign will also have made it to deliver new cards. I do not know anohter firm which delivers cards and new truly-DSP systems on such a regular basis. And native systems for me (and only for me) do not work for the mentioned reasons. The time might come (or not) where I go to a native systems, but not now. And for now ProTools Systems offer me what I need. Everytime I do a hardware upgrade I seriously do check all the alternatives. Once I changed to Paris (at this time the best Digidesign had to offer was PT 24, which imo was to expensive, for what it was. ) I was lucky with Paris. But with Digidesigns Mix Plus I changed again... If something comes out that works better for my needs than PT's I will change again with no hesitation. DAW's are Tools, and I take what I think is best for my needs.

Quote:


Also about listening to a protools mix or a neve mix is something I already have heard.

I can tell you exactly when a mix is totally digital or analog mixed.

And I also can hear if it's done with a protools mix.

And I'm talking about a mix which is fully mixed in protools.

It's just like henchman says. It sounds bad to me and I'm serious thinking that a lot of top 40 productions which are made in protools are soundi ng bad.

There are as many bad mixes around made on analog desks as on digital (speak protools if you want). But you are right, in European Charts there are Songs where me too I clearly hear bad mixes, where I can say that they where made on ProTools. But I also believe that I could say, what the engineers made wrong. (And I was not sure if they did a better mix on a analog desk.)

Quote:
I'm selling my protools mix system because when I bought a second hand tascam M3500 my sound was improving in a way I never heard with my protools rig.

Same mix in a M3500 sounds already so much richer and opener with so much more detail then the same mix with my protools system.
Thats hard to believe. I am totaly sure that if I mix a mix on a tascam and on ProTools there would be no comparision. The PT Mix would be millions better in every direction. But thats just me.

Quote:
So if you tell me that you don't like a mix from a Neve and choose for a protools mix then what can I say?
So you don't think it is possible that the engineer who mixed on the neve had a bad day and another Engineer with a good day delivers a better mix on ProTools? I am quite sure that if I gave you the two mixes and told you to choose and master the one that you thought was better sounding, you would have choosed the better sounding, nomatter on which system it was mixed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say a neve sounds bad. Its mixbus has a sound, and very clearly a great one. But neither does Protools sound bad. It is a digital mixing system, and imo its mixbus doesn't have a sound, it just adds the track together. The Reason I prefear to work digitally (this time with Protools) is also out of practical reasons. (And I do all reverbs with hardware, so it is not completly a "mix in the Box" isn't it:-)

Quote:

Youre right????
I am right and so are you. We both are valuable engineers but just with different opignions on certain technics.

Cheers
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433759 11/19/03 11:33 AM
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errol Offline
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433760 11/21/03 11:49 PM
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tom@aerovons.com Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)
I find using PT's to record NEVER stress free. Always problems. Plug-ins suddenly going sideways. System not locking to picture. Losing preferences.
Henchman, then that's a problem in YOUR system. If it were that unreliable it wouldn't be number one.

I use it 8 hours a day and ALMOST never have a problem. In fact the only time I notice I have problems is when I download a demo plug in or something. Under OSX I have been amazed that I just plain don't crash anymore. I'm all for ANY other system I could go to that would keep me from chasing Digi's hardware "upgrades" every two years so I am hoping to hear Nuendo soon. But if it doesn't work on the Mac under OSX, it's outa here...I will NOT give up my Mac;)

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433761 11/22/03 09:23 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tom@aerovons.com:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Henchman:
Henchman, then that's a problem in YOUR system. If it were that unreliable it wouldn't be number one.
I use it in various rooms, 10 -12 hours a day.
Always issues. Period.

i have worked in various facilities, and have had stupid problems in every single one.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433762 11/22/03 11:25 AM
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Quote:
I use it in various rooms, 10 -12 hours a day.
Always issues. Period.

i have worked in various facilities, and have had stupid problems in every single one.
What a shame :-(

I have worked in various facilities as well and have never had any problem. Exept once, and there it turned out , that technicians of the studio there who knowed nothing about Protools tried to optimize the system (they loeaded OS updateds which where not supported etc).

A proper installed PT System is as stable as it can get. I installed a PT System in a Jazzclub, and it is running without any problems five years now. The Recording Studio here around where I often track my recordings has a PT System (along the Studio 820), never any problems there as well. My System (earlier a Mix, now HD), no Problems. The Abbey Road ProTools (where I had the luck to track an orchestera session for a project I mixed), no problem there as well.

If installed right, the thing is dammed stable, period.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433763 11/22/03 11:26 AM
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Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
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deleted, double post. Is there no way to completly delete a double post?

d

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433764 11/22/03 11:55 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:


I have worked in various facilities as well and have never had any problem. Exept once, and there it turned out , that technicians of the studio there who knowed nothing about Protools tried to optimize the system (they loeaded OS updateds which where not supported etc).

A proper installed PT System is as stable as it can get. I installed a PT System in a Jazzclub, and it is running without any problems five years now. The Recording Studio here around where I often track my recordings has a PT System (along the Studio 820), never any problems there as well. My System (earlier a Mix, now HD), no Problems. The Abbey Road ProTools (where I had the luck to track an orchestera session for a project I mixed), no problem there as well.

If installed right, the thing is dammed stable, period.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
Well, I guess all the technicians, as well as dealers here in town must be complete morins then.

Tell me, how many 1 hour shows have you worked on? Ever done lock to picture?


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433765 11/22/03 12:57 PM
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errol Offline
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QUOTE]Well, I guess all the technicians, as well as dealers here in town must be complete morins then.

Tell me, how many 1 hour shows have you worked on? Ever done lock to picture?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Henchman, it's a canadian thing I guess.
It has something to do with the air I've heard.
The better the air the better the lock to picture. \:D

I never have heard of a stable protools system.
Oke it's not crashing 10 times a day anymore but as with all software there is always something.

You have to live with that I guess.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433766 11/22/03 03:31 PM
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Well I suppose I'm lucky. Radar does enough for me 99.9% of the time. It's only crashed without operator error once in over two and a half years and week ago a couple of home PT users went home after a day's recording mighty impressed. I monitor on ATC 100A and it sound wonderful.
I suppose if you're doing stuff which is only ever heard on TV or radio you can get away with butchering your sound. Give me HI-FI any day. I prefer to record good music properly than try o make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.


It's not a successful climb unless you enjoy the journey
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433767 11/22/03 04:05 PM
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One thing to remember in this 'discussion'... as (most of us are) humans, we want to think that whatever decision WE make is the only one, and that anyone making a different decision is insane...religion, politics, hair styles, you name it - and it seems that choice of DAW fits right nicely into that idea...bashing someone because they chose a different platform from which to work really is pretty childish...I can also say with confidence that anyone who has had their position radically changed because of the seemingly endless barrage of PT/Logic/Nuendo/2" tape/Fill-in-the-blank 'discussions' contained in these pages is being guided by a force other than their own abilities, work habits, and experience...Great recordings have been made using PT, Mackie d8b, Logic, 12 track mixers, Samplitude, 2" 16 track, ADAT, in-the-box, 4 track cassette machines, Sony Oxford, wax cylinders, Neve, Sonar, Paris, 1/2" mono tape, 15ips, 30ips, HDR, Radar, etc etc etc... I've never heard of any record being bashed or praised based on the recording format, except in the 'pro audio' pages of the internet...

Consider: there are unlimited pros and cons for each and every format out there...latency, track count, compatability, resource management, blah blah blah...exactly NONE of these issues have anything to do with the final product: the song...These are merely devices to achieve the desired end result. The performance of a great song doesn't care which format was used...only the engineers/producers care...and if an engineer/producer cannot translate well prepared, recorded, and performed elements into the desired end result, then that engineer/producer needs to find something else to do ("would you like to supersize that?")

Pardon my rant...its just that I think sometimes we all forget that what we do is more important than the tools we use to do it...


So What ARE We Gonna Do With 8 Tracks...Fire the Arranger?
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433768 11/22/03 04:32 PM
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IMO technical features are very important for the end result. Technical progress can even create new music styles (hip-hop, techno, electronica ) or at least determine the sound of a production.
The better and easier a feature is implemented the more room for creativity you have (knowing that limits may help creativity aswell).

Another must for me personally is the best possible reliability, thats why I choose Soundscape .

The general discussion of features is important as it could help in finding an Engineer the right tool for his work. It also helps developers making the right choice for development.

But you are right, all technical features mean nothing without the creator behind using it in the right way and in the end it comes down to the result that has to be great: musically or comercially (or both).

But this doesnīt mean a technically founded discussion about features is worthles. (I agree that this doesnīt happen in most forums in the right way and very often the choice of daw seems to be more based on hype and hippness than the actual technical achievements the DAW can do)

All the best

Wolfram

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433769 11/22/03 05:09 PM
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Congratulations Wolfram, Soundscape is the only DAW I considered capable before buying my Radar. The final decision was made because of intuitiveness for visiting engineers and producers and for speed; I didn't want to wait for waveforms to be drawn after the event. It's much more useful if you can see them as youre' recording.


It's not a successful climb unless you enjoy the journey
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433770 11/22/03 07:55 PM
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That's why I chose Fairlight for my own studio. After having suffered the wrath of PT's at other studio's I worked at.

And I too have yet to personnally see a crash proof PT system.

Again Yesterday I was doing a "save copy as" function. Copying all audio files to a final master directory. At the end I get the message "PT's is low on memoy and will exit".
So, another reboot was in order to check the copied session. What a load of crap.

Or how about having to reboot the whole computer after adding a drive, and PT's unable to refer to the audio files because it's not a "audio" drive. Bullshit.
More wasted time.

Figuring out why suddenly The system won't chase. Only to find out, that it mysteriously lost the SSD prefernces.

During ADR recording, hitting record. Only to have it NOT go into record, and having to stop, and try again.
Happens numerous times on ADR sessions.

Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.
Or bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled. And having to go back several minutes in a show and relay those parts, because of this.

And the un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session. So you are forced to work in either, or waste more time and drive space having to have the existing files copied into the same format. What a joke.

All wasted time.

I'm sure NOBODy has ever experineced these kinds of things. Yet they happen all the time. And these are just a few of the things why I consider PT's such a mickey mouse, un-proffesional system.
It wastes my time, and therfore wastes money.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433771 11/23/03 11:48 AM
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Wolfgang Eller Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
All wasted time.
So why donīt you use your second time bankrupted beloved Fairlight and donīt waste our time.

Iīm working since a half a year with 3 different HD 2/3 systems on OSX with sessions between 10 and 80 tracks, loads of plugins and automation, syncing with SSL MT or stand alone.
Not a single freece.

So sometimes itīs not the system, sometimes itīs the user (and how to setup the system). :rolleyes:


Wolfgang Eller
SRS Mastering/Germany
http://www.srs-mastering.de
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433772 11/23/03 01:16 PM
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It seems to me that PT users often can't handle criticism.


The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433773 11/23/03 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
And I too have yet to personnally see a crash proof PT system.

I beta test for a few companies (sorry, I won't mention them all due to wanting to avoid problems with the NDA's), and beta software / plug ins are about the only things that's ever crashed my PT setup. Maybe others have had some serious problems, and I've seen plenty of that over on the DUC, but with a Digi approved system and a bit of time setting it up (far less in my experience than is required by most other production hardware / software) PT has always been rock stable for me - and I'm on my third PT computer.

Nothing's crash proof (even hardware), but PT comes the closest to that ideal out of any software I've ever used. If I couldn't rely on it, I wouldn't be using it.


Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
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My New Forum on Harmony-Central
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433774 11/23/03 03:10 PM
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Quote:
t seems to me that PT users often can't handle criticism.
Far away. The point is, that there are people out there, who have the boring attitud to come into every thread about protools and cackle how "bad" PT is, and (if you read between the lines) how innorant people who use ProTools are. They might or might not have had a bad experience with PT, and now they make it to their live-task to chop and bash for everything with the name Digidesign on it .

There are several things concerning audio equipment that I don't like for what ever reason. Lets say, just for an example that I don't like Rode Microphones. Would I now just go to every thread concerning rode mics and write how bad those microphones are? Of course not. But the well known PT bashers just do exactly that.

I wish that those forums come get back to a place where professionals can share and discuss their opignions. Critics (also on PTools) would be very welcome, but not bashing. And there is a world difference between the two. At the end, as we say in my lagnuage: Its the tone which makes the music.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433775 11/23/03 05:55 PM
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433776 11/23/03 08:56 PM
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The problem with most PT usres, is that they base their opinions on THEIAR system, that is only operated by them.
Now, try and use a system like PT in a facility where you have numerous users using various systems in one day, and that's when it falls apart.
A pro system should be rocksolid, no many how many peopl use it.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433777 11/23/03 08:56 PM
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If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433778 11/24/03 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?
The studios I work at have excellent support.

But it's so much easier to keep blaming the studio's and saying it's the fault of bad set-ups, isn't it.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433779 11/24/03 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?
The studios I work at have excellent support.

But it's so much easier to keep blaming the studio's and saying it's the fault of bad set-ups, isn't it.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433780 11/24/03 03:56 AM
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Philter Offline
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Hmmm, it seems to be working for most of the world.

You should try setting your output buffer higher; you'll get less errors that way.

;\)


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433781 11/24/03 09:18 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Hmmm, it seems to be working for most of the world.

You should try setting your output buffer higher; you'll get less errors that way.

;\)
So, setting the buffers higher will solve the following problems?

1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433782 11/24/03 09:59 PM
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Philter Offline
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No, you should set YOUR output buffers higher.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433783 11/24/03 10:47 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
No, you should set YOUR output buffers higher.
Or lower my standards and expectations of what I think pro gear should actually do.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433784 11/24/03 10:54 PM
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Extreme Mixing Offline
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Henchman,

Which Pro Tools system are you using that still relies on a Smpte Slave Driver (SSD)? Most of those were retired years ago in favor of the USD. The new box for HD is called the Sync I/O. Maybe you should upgrade?

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433785 11/24/03 11:06 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
Henchman,

Which Pro Tools system are you using that still relies on a Smpte Slave Driver (SSD)? Most of those were retired years ago in favor of the USD. The new box for HD is called the Sync I/O. Maybe you should upgrade?
I mistyped. They are USD's.

They are not my system's, thank god.
But I see no reason why a facility should have to upgrade 9-12 sytems to deal with the issues I mentioned. Accompanied with the cost of plug-in upgrades, and the non-availabilty of post-conform for OSX.
I find that completely out of control.

It seems that that is the answer always givne. "Upgrade, and everything will beb fine". When I don't have any of the above problems when using even an MFX3plus, that is 10 tears old.

Fix the issues with systems already sold, insteasd of dumping all development resources into the next "new" thing.

Now it's HD accel. What's next. How many upgrades, and how much money do you have to give digi to end up with a system that finally works 100% the way it should?.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433786 11/24/03 11:13 PM
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Philter Offline
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I don't have any particular love for Digi and I would love to see a truly competitive alternative arise.

What is annoying is people with singular subjective experiences Pro-Trolling for dubious reasons, ie bitter after having banked on a failed platform, or in Tron's case, bitter about cat food spots.

If some of these pros took the time they spent trolling about ProTools and applied it to learning the system, they would be much more productive.

What should we do Henchman, all switch to a bankrupt format? Do you know something that does what ProTools does, and is better for some reason? I mean, fairlight was a glorified multitrack, not even the same kind of product as ProTools.

So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433787 11/24/03 11:20 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
I mean, fairlight was a glorified multitrack, not even the same kind of product as ProTools.

So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?
SFairlight is not bankrupt. They are still in business.

And it is/was way more than a glorified tape recorder. Which you would know, if you ever have the chance to get soem real hands-on time with one.

I , on the other hand deal with PT's everyday. And just want it to work the way proffessional gear shoudl work.

That's all.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433788 11/24/03 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WireLine Studio:
Consider: there are unlimited pros and cons for each and every format out there...latency, track count, compatability, resource management, blah blah blah...exactly NONE of these issues have anything to do with the final product: the song...These are merely devices to achieve the desired end result. The performance of a great song doesn't care which format was used...only the engineers/producers care...and if an engineer/producer cannot translate well prepared, recorded, and performed elements into the desired end result, then that engineer/producer needs to find something else to do ("would you like to supersize that?")

Pardon my rant...its just that I think sometimes we all forget that what we do is more important than the tools we use to do it...
I applaud this thought one hundred percent.

HOWEVER... When one has the ability to achieve great mixes on the barest essentials of tools, even they will achieve greater results with better tools of the trade.



Haven Music Productions
Tampa, FL

www DOT havenmp DOT com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433789 11/24/03 11:33 PM
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Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433790 11/25/03 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?
http://www.fairlightau.com

Also, let me know where I can pick up an HD system with 48 channels of I/O, synch options, soundminer ADR package AND a compter for 6k and I'm there.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433791 11/25/03 01:55 AM
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Not an HD system, a mix system. I've got 16 inputs and 64 tracks. I could add another 16 inputs for $2,000, although I won't because I don't need them.

The Fairlight looks good for someone coming from a hardware background. I come from a software background. I got started with sequencing software in the 80's instead of analog tape. I'm used to software being interchangeable, adaptable, flexible, disposable, portable, scaleable. You want a product that acts like an anchor: always there, doing exactly one thing and doing it well, nothing more, nothing less.

Limitations I can see with Fairlight:
  • expensive
  • no MIDI
  • dedicated hardware means limited applications/general inflexibility
  • limited track count
  • wasteful control surface not optional
  • few customizeable options
  • are there plugins?
  • limited development partners
  • no portable solution


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433792 11/25/03 11:28 AM
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adebar Offline
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Quote:
So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?
It depends:

If you wanna do mastering there are many DAWs with better solutions - SADiE, Sonic Solutions, Audio Cube.
Even Sequoia is better.

If you need a multitrack production system PT is good, but there are alterantives like Nuendo and Logic, or Pyramix,..... With Nuendo it is possible to have a less expensive solution which has almost the same features like PT. But there is the plug in situation. PT offers more - also more cheapo things nobody needs.
Pyramix is a great system too - and I think Iīve forgotten to mention others.

Iīm not able to come to a conclusion. PT is still the standard but I think it wonīt be THE standard in the future.

In future there may be a common file standard where it is easy to export and import audio files with EDLs from and to every DAW - than nowbody asks for a standard of a machine if there is a good working exchange stadard.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433793 11/25/03 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?
protools hasn't also midi. well they call it midi but it is unusable.
plugins?? 80% is also unusable.

Ever heard the sound of a fairlight??
Even one of the first fairlights which kate bush used in the past, sounds still incredible.

It's just what henchman says.... Every 1,1/2 year upgrading of all the hardware without fixing the bugs is ridiculous.

But that's one of the reasons digi is still alive.


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433794 11/25/03 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adebar:
[QUOTE]
In future there may be a common file standard where it is easy to export and import audio files with EDLs from and to every DAW - than nowbody asks for a standard of a machine if there is a good working exchange stadard.
Which DIGI is very hard trying to prevent. This is why they stopped Fairlight from implementing the Pro-Tools import and Export function on Fairlights.

I do Midi stuff all the time, using my $500,- 2Ghz PC. I know I won't have to upgrade my fairlight for a long time, becasue it's proprietary. And I don't need to kerep exchanging hardware just to run a new OS. This is why i can still use a 10 year old MFX3Plus, and have it still be extermely productive.
Hell, I know people that still use Synclaviers, becasue they kick ass.

Ask anybody to add up what they've spent on their Pro-Tools systems in the last 10 years, and that includes the continouous MAC upgrades, and see what the final cost is.

And since most people have said that PT HD has finally started sounding ggod, then that emans they were content in using an inferior product for all those years.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433795 11/25/03 08:24 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adebar:
[qb][QUOTE]
And since most people have said that PT HD has finally started sounding ggod, then that emans they were content in using an inferior product for all those years.
uuuhhh henchman, dont' tell this anybody.
I'm still selling my protools rig \:D


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433796 11/25/03 08:34 PM
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Of course HD sounds good. What a dumb "point." So if someone does something better, all of a sudden, all their earlier achievements become failures? "Gee Mr Ruth, this year you hit ten more home runs than last year. We're going to fire you because you weren't playing your full game last year." Pathetic. I've heard that one before and it sounds more desperate every time.

Mix systems sound fine with a skilled operator. It's so dumb to be arguing if ProTools sounds good enough when it's all over the radio, all over television, all over the movies. Subjectively, go ahead and gripe as much as you want in your own tiny sphere of influence. The circle-jerk ProTroll feeds exclusively off their own verbal excrement. Objectively, by every market and audience standard, ProTools works. It's good enough for the rest of the world. If you\'re better than the rest of the world, so be it.

I've programmed scores for major cinematic releases using nothing but ProTools MIDI, so please save the bullshit about it not working. The MIDI editing is as awesome as the audio editing in PT, because they followed the same philosophy, and kept it inline on the same window as the audio.

Q. Why don't you ever see ProTools users out Trolling other platform users?
A. Because they're content.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433797 11/25/03 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Q. Why don't you ever see ProTools users out Trolling other platform users?
The man does have a point there.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433798 11/26/03 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Of course HD sounds good. What a dumb "point."
Nope. the point is, that everyone said that pro-Tools sounded amazing, utill HD came out. The suddenly the same people defending PT's startede talking about mix buss issues. the need to use external analogue bussing devices etc.

And then there are the PT useres, who bought into the HD thing again, only to discover that it still was lacking, and started looking elsewhere.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433799 11/26/03 12:50 AM
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Philter Offline
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I don't know who this phantom "everyone" is that you keep referring to, but it seems very similar to the persona known as "Henchman." Could it be so?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433800 11/26/03 03:10 AM
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Remember what this thread was about?

My vote: Steinberg.

Nuff said.

Lawrence

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433801 11/26/03 04:18 AM
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edmann Offline
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this is why I like bongos and a little clay flute


Ed Mann
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433802 11/26/03 05:33 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
I don't know who this phantom "everyone" is that you keep referring to, but it seems very similar to the persona known as "Henchman." Could it be so?
I remember very clearly numerous people making these comments. Don't pretend it nevre happened. I remebr for a fatc, that Jules of Gearslutz was one of them.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433803 11/26/03 09:44 AM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:

Hell, I know people that still use Synclaviers, becasue they kick ass.

Ask anybody to add up what they've spent on their Pro-Tools systems in the last 10 years, and that includes the continouous MAC upgrades, and see what the final cost is.

LOL, considerably less than a Synclavier, I promise you that. And Synclaviers truly suck. I speak from experience. A quarter of a million dollars for monophonic sampling. A sequencer that measures note events with glacial resolution. Oh, did they upgrade? Perhaps I was working with an inferior product, at least when the the usually frozen Winchester drive decided it would let me work at all. Yeah, we should all have a Synclavier.

What's your problem Henchman? You're foaming at the mouth here. Your rant has been well documented, time and again. I mean, it's no skin off my back if you use a Fairlight. More power to ya. Sounds like for what you do, Fairlight works the best. But few people do exactly what you do, so what's the point of all this.

I swear I don't work for Digi, but my PT system is rock solid. So is everyone else's I know of. The only crash I've ever experienced since upgrading to HD more than a year ago, was caused by trying to add another Bombfactory plugin to a session.

And believe me, there was no trauma setting it up. Plug in the cards, install the program and go.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433804 11/26/03 10:17 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:


What's your problem Henchman? You're foaming at the mouth here. Your rant has been well documented, time and again.
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?

If you go back a page, and read the issues I run into on a daily basis, then you might understand the frustration.
And when you have a producer and acting talent looking at you because the POS didn't go inot record again, it gets old pretty damn quick.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433805 11/26/03 10:27 AM
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Philter Offline
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Man, you've got a real hang up.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433806 11/26/03 11:44 AM
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Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
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Quote:
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?

If you go back a page, and read the issues I run into on a daily basis, then you might understand the frustration.
I don't know and I don't care. I've sitting in studios with SSL's 4000 G+. Many of them worked great, because they where in good condition. One of them was in such a terrible condition, that the recording could always not have been finished.

Quote:
1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.
1) Never had at any place. But well, you shouldn't try to run PT or any DAW with a System with 256 MB

2) Never had, but a studend had it at the musicuniversitie's ProTools with a firewire drive. It was on a mix plus, and with that systems you had to check with the Digi Compatible List. Neidless to say that his drive was not on the list.

5. If I remember back that was a mistacke by a plugindevelopper, not Digidesign. And they had a fix very quick.

7) Would be nice, but there are much more things, and imo more important things I want to see implemented in PTools

For the other points I never heard of those issues.

If you run into the issues you described really on a daily basis, than that is truly and without any discussion the fault of the guy that installed and maintained the system. If the system was not stable, or suffered the problems you mention I was the first that would change.

To your other comment about the people using mix plus and then HD, yadda, yadda: Well, if you use PT as a taperecorder, spliiting the outs to a console, then there is no difference (exept the higher sampling rate) in the quality. If you mix in the Box then what is the problem if the mixer has improoved? It is not much difference to the DM2000 which mixbus also sounds better than the one in the 02R. And I would still prerear to mix on a old Mix System, than on a Mackei Digital Board.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433807 11/26/03 12:49 PM
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Philip O'Keefe Offline
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Never had that problem. I am currently running a Gig of RAM, but I never had the problem even with half that amount.

2. Hmmm... never seen that one either. I've done 32 tracks off the C drive... my D drive works great and so does my removeable external Firewire drive.

3. Boy, you have not used PT in a while, have you? That's ancient hardware. \:\)

4. I've never had a problem with PT going into or out of record on demand.

5. Old issue. Single plug in vendor's problem, long ago fixed.

6. Bypassed plug ins still take resources... but you can disable a plug in, and it won't. Use the right method for what you're after - both are available and both work fine.

7. True. But you can always IMPORT and convert that 16 bit file if you want. It's never been a major issue for me, but I can see where some people would find it a issue.

Again, my PT systems have all been rock solid in daily use... and on a PC at that! \:\)


Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://www.ssrstudio.com
http://www.philokeefe.com
pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com
My New Forum on Harmony-Central
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433808 11/26/03 04:40 PM
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StoneinaPond Offline
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Quote:
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?
Because you have bad Karma? \:D

I mean, there can't be any other reason unless you are totally surrounded by "PT/computer impaired" individuals.

I've met a few, but I didn't know there were that many.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433809 11/26/03 07:43 PM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?
I used to work with a guy who's Mac screen would be showing a bomb so often that I thought that it was his desktop background. He had fragmented drives, extension conflicts, outdated software, not enough memory, and so forth. We spent more time rebooting his computer than recording tracks. He once LOST an entire live network television show's worth of music 2 weeks beffore the show. Had to all be redone.

Basically his system was broken and in poor repair. Sounds like that's the problem with your friend's system. I'm beginning to think your whole long history of slamming Protools is based on working with a few people with broken studios.

You should treat yourself to working with a system that is at least basically functioning, after which you might want to re-evaluate your opinion. I mean, I could talk about all the lame-assed, buggy Fairlight systems I've worked on, but that doesn't reflect the current state of the art. Neither, apparently, does your experience.

If I lived in your area, I'd buy a G4, slap in an HD3 system, hire a 12 year old to run it, and put those guys out of business.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433810 11/26/03 08:40 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]
If I lived in your area, I'd buy a G4, slap in an HD3 system, hire a 12 year old to run it, and put those guys out of business.

-R
Tell you what. You tell the company I work for that you'll pay to upgrade all 12 of their systems to HD, and replace allt heir G3's for G4's.

Doesn't make alot of sense does it.

Why shoudl a company have to continually upgrade., just to have systems workign properly.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433811 11/26/03 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
And I would still prerear to mix on a old Mix System, than on a Mackei Digital Board.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
Well, I tell you what. I am going to be do a comparison mix of a song I am working on. I'll b mxing it at my place on the Fairlight/D8B.
Then, I'm going to do a mix using PT's and the Euphonix. And the a straight Pt mix.
Now, not being a PT user, that would give teh PT format a disadvantage,
I'll get you a copy of the song, and you do a mix on PT's.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433812 11/26/03 09:07 PM
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I would take you up on that offer. And how would we keep score? I suppose we should just keep count of how many times our systems crash...Or is it which mix you like best?

soulconnect@earthlink.net

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433813 11/26/03 09:50 PM
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Logic is going to achieve this if Apple manages its ownership of Emagic correctly. They have the R&D funding capable of producing an optimized system. If Logic would align itself with the TC Powercore or Universal Audio UAD the DP G5's running Logic and an effects dsp could set the audio retail world on it's ear. We are talking about a $2000 G5(probably january), a $500 Logic program, and a $1000 effects card. This setup, optimized correctly, could leave PT in the dust.
Logic would have to focus on a more intuitive audio recording /editing platform and fine tune the DP's of the G5(which they are already ahead of Protools on). The new industry standard- affordable, powerful, and easy to use. Apple if you are listening I need a job.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433814 11/26/03 10:15 PM
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Quote:
We are talking about a $2000 G5(probably january), a $500 Logic program, and a $1000 effects card. This setup, optimized correctly, could leave PT in the dust.
How would you get audio in and out of such a system? Add a good $3000 (Rosetta 800 with FireWire card?) for multi channel A/D and D/A.

At this rate you are looking at being close to an HD1. Not sure I see the dust yet. But if Emagic could sort out the audio environment, I would agree, this would be a strong contender.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433815 11/26/03 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
I would take you up on that offer. And how would we keep score? I suppose we should just keep count of how many times our systems crash...Or is it which mix you like best?

soulconnect@earthlink.net
It's more to really hear the difference for me personally. And I am not an experienced PT user, so I could see how the me mixing it would an unfair comparison.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433816 11/26/03 10:50 PM
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[/QUOTE]It's more to really hear the difference for me personally. And I am not an experienced PT user, so I could see how the me mixing it would an unfair comparison.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Let me know when the song is ready. If I have time, I'd love to check it out.

soulconnect@earthlink.net

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433817 11/27/03 12:34 AM
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Quote:
We are talking about a $2000 G5(probably january), a $500 Logic program, and a $1000 effects card. This setup, optimized correctly, could leave PT in the dust.
If you look how Apple competes with Final Cut Pro against Avid, I could imagine Logic could be a strong competitor to ProTools soon.

Steinberg doesnīt seem to realize the chance they have with Nuendo so Logic could be the winner.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433818 11/27/03 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:


Let me know when the song is ready. If I have time, I'd love to check it out.

soulconnect@earthlink.net
This is the song:

Little Bird

I picked this one because It's not too long., uses Real drums and thick BG's.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433819 11/27/03 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adebar:
[qb][QUOTE]
In future there may be a common file standard where it is easy to export and import audio files with EDLs from and to every DAW - than nowbody asks for a standard of a machine if there is a good working exchange stadard.
Which DIGI is very hard trying to prevent. This is why they stopped Fairlight from implementing the Pro-Tools import and Export function on Fairlights.

Henchman,

If it is not too much trouble, could you please expand on what they did to prevent compatibility? Was it something legal? Technical? Is there a site where this is documented? Thanks.

S.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433820 11/27/03 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Well, I tell you what. I am going to be do a comparison mix of a song I am working on. I'll b mxing it at my place on the Fairlight/D8B.
Then, I'm going to do a mix using PT's and the Euphonix. And the a straight Pt mix.
Now, not being a PT user, that would give teh PT format a disadvantage,
I'll get you a copy of the song, and you do a mix on PT's.
Why not. Not that it would prove anything, either your or my mix will be "better", but to me it would not be the difference of the plattform, but of the mixer.

Anyway I don't want to mix more than a minute of this song. You could choose which part I mix. To do the whole thing takes to much time for me. Basically if we want to look for platform differences, one minute should be enough. Also I recommand to fix the tuning of the singer, so that we work all with the same track.

What do you think?

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433821 11/27/03 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superstrings:

Henchman,

If it is not too much trouble, could you please expand on what they did to prevent compatibility? Was it something legal? Technical? Is there a site where this is documented? Thanks.

S.
The import and export function was an option that Fairlight paid a licensing fee to DIGI. They then had to remove it a couple of years later, becasue Digi would not allow them to import or export PT's compatible sessions, and they were forced to write it out of future software.

So much for compatabilty. Doon't look towards digi for compatabilty to become an oiption as far as they are concerened. Because it is too much of a threat for them.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433822 11/27/03 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
[QUOTE] Also I recommand to fix the tuning of the singer, so that we work all with the same track.

What do you think?

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
I see no need to do any vocal tuning whatsoever.
I can't see mixing one minute taking anymore time than 2.5 minutes. For me it's setting up and getting the main sounds that takes the most time.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433823 11/27/03 02:04 AM
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Quote:
I see no need to do any vocal tuning whatsoever.
I can't see mixing one minute taking anymore time than 2.5 minutes. For me it's setting up and getting the main sounds that takes the most time.
I really prefear to mix just one verse and one chorus. To me its not only about setting up and getting the main sound, it takes much more time (for me) if I have to do the whole song. As you said, the important thing to listen here is the sound, and therefore one minute is ok. Last but not least the file transfer would be faster with 1 min files. And I personnaly don't like this music, so this is another reason why I prefear to get 1 min files.
The vocals are out of tune most of the time but that would be ok for me.

Ok for you?
Daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433824 11/27/03 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]
If I lived in your area, I'd buy a G4, slap in an HD3 system, hire a 12 year old to run it, and put those guys out of business.

-R
Tell you what. You tell the company I work for that you'll pay to upgrade all 12 of their systems to HD, and replace allt heir G3's for G4's.

Doesn't make alot of sense does it.

Why shoudl a company have to continually upgrade., just to have systems workign properly.
I don't know where to begin. What, are you still working on an original Fairlight? Of course not.

If your company is keeping 12 Protools systems cooking then it should take almost no time to pay off the investment of upgrading. Plus, they'll be able to charge more than $5 an hour because their systems will actually be working !!

What you're saying is that they've got 12 PT systems going and none of them work properly? That is so needless. You should defnitely open your own shop next door and run them out of business in 5 minutes. Or more realistically, why not invest in one of their rooms in exchange for a piece of the action. I mean, if you're doing post production, which I gather is what you're doing, you can pay that back easily, and have a no-aggravation work environment to boot.

Beats the hell out of all this griping. At least now I know when you're bashing Pro Tools you're talking about some prehistoric version.

You know, I was curious so I jotted down a few estimates. Bear with me as these aren't accurate necessarily, but should say something about the big picture.

Say you buy 12 G4's at about $2,000 each. Then spend $20,000 each for 12 new Protools HD systems. Now you're in for about $264,000. Now say you borrow all of that in a 15 year loan, at, say, 10% interest. Your monthly payment for your 12 rooms will be about $4,000. That's $333 per room, which is about 16 bucks per business day.

So up your rate by 2 bucks an hour.

Keep in mind that I didn't mention the tax advantages of upgrading. If you're doing big business every year and paying half your money in taxes, the deduction from the equipment purchase will bring that figure down drastically lower. (that's USA, of course. Don't know about your location)

Bottom line. Your employers have a clientel that justifies 12 rooms of Protools, but their needs are not being satisfied.

Opportunity.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433825 11/27/03 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Superstrings:

Henchman,

If it is not too much trouble, could you please expand on what they did to prevent compatibility? Was it something legal? Technical? Is there a site where this is documented? Thanks.

S.
The import and export function was an option that Fairlight paid a licensing fee to DIGI. They then had to remove it a couple of years later, becasue Digi would not allow them to import or export PT's compatible sessions, and they were forced to write it out of future software.

So much for compatabilty. Doon't look towards digi for compatabilty to become an oiption as far as they are concerened. Because it is too much of a threat for them.
Thanks for the info Henchman. So if I understand correctly, DIGI withdrew the license and left Fairlight high and dry, but they could only do that because Fairlight did not develop their own import/export function. Interesting stuff.

S.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433826 11/27/03 02:28 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]Bottom line. Your employers have a clientel that justifies 12 rooms of Protools, but their needs are not being satisfied.

Opportunity.

-R
You seriously hvae no clue about operating a big business. Do you think that upgrading PT systems is the only thing that needs to be taken care of in a large facility.

I am so sick of people with one system thinking they have the answer for large facilities with multiple systems.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433827 11/27/03 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superstrings:
[QUOTE]Thanks for the info Henchman. So if I understand correctly, DIGI withdrew the license and left Fairlight high and dry, but they could only do that because Fairlight did not develop their own import/export function. Interesting stuff.

S.
No, Fairlight developed the import/export function themselves.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433828 11/27/03 02:29 AM
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dbl post


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433829 11/27/03 02:42 AM
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Henchman Offline
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]Originally posted by RKrizman:
Quote:

At least now I know when you're bashing Pro Tools you're talking about some prehistoric version.

-R
So, mixplus with g3's and a few G4's running 5.? (not quite sure, but it's what works without going OSX and dealing with all sorts of other issues), is pre-historic.

Wow, that's a pretty short shelflife, if you ask me. As I said before, I am also running Fairlight MFX3plus systems, that are much older than a Mixplus system. And they run smoother and better than the Mixplus systems that are yaers younger.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433830 11/27/03 02:59 AM
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Superstrings Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Superstrings:
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Superstrings:

Henchman,

If it is not too much trouble, could you please expand on what they did to prevent compatibility? Was it something legal? Technical? Is there a site where this is documented? Thanks.

S.
The import and export function was an option that Fairlight paid a licensing fee to DIGI. They then had to remove it a couple of years later, becasue Digi would not allow them to import or export PT's compatible sessions, and they were forced to write it out of future software.

So much for compatabilty. Doon't look towards digi for compatabilty to become an oiption as far as they are concerened. Because it is too much of a threat for them.
Thanks for the info Henchman. So if I understand correctly, DIGI withdrew the license and left Fairlight high and dry, but they could only do that because Fairlight did not develop their own import/export function. Interesting stuff.

S.
???
Amazing!
I have a few things to check. Will be back with comments perhaps. I did not think Digi could stop a company from developing compatibility. Although I knew they were not keen.

S.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433831 11/27/03 03:20 AM
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Rkrizman,

I'm with you on upgrading the Pro Tools systems, but you must be on CRACK to even suggest a 15 year loan on a computer system of any kind! When the systems are obsolete (I'm being generous here) you would still have another 8-10 years of payments left. I know of no bank that would loan money on a computer system for a term of more than 5 years.

As for mixing only a minute of the song, Daniel, that's just goofy. Either it's a piece of music, or it's not. When we're talking about mixing, on some level we're talking about art. I think Henchman's challenge is; can you be expressive with this instrument, or do you have to have a console and a Fairlight to express your creative intentions. I'm not sure drawing a picture of just the nose will get you there...Sometimes the puzzle doesn't come together until you get closer to the finished product.

Mixing is not just a question of stacking up lots of pieces of hand picked gear. If it were, anyone who had access to mix documentation sheets from great sounding recordings could do outstanding mixes by just using the monkey see, monkey do method. I think we can all agree that that doesn't work.

As far as not liking the artist, all I can say is that I don't usually get to audition the people I mix for. They pick me because of something they heard, and I try to do the best I can to bring out the best in the artist, because you never know who will hear it and where it will go.

I'll keep up my offer to mix a version of the song.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433832 11/27/03 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]I see no need to do any vocal tuning whatsoever.
So why do you care about the sound at all?

The vocal performance is horrible!

Okay she has a good voice (for that kind of teeny pop music) but did she ever heart the word tuning?

It could be mixed by Bob or Georg or any other first class mixer, without doing the vocal tuning right, it will never reach the second league (and just forget the first).

So again, why do you care about the sound of a song if not even the performance is first class?


Wolfgang Eller
SRS Mastering/Germany
http://www.srs-mastering.de
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433833 11/27/03 11:15 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang Eller:
[QUOTE

The vocal performance is horrible!
Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with you on that one.

Or maybe you are they type of person who likes completely perfect autotuned generic soulless vocals.

I don't.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433834 11/27/03 01:05 PM
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Me too.

But this is not slightly out of tune itīs sometimes way out of tune.

I can imagine if you try to tune it with autotune you have to do it manualy cause otherwise it will be drwan to the wrong next note (Sheīs sometimes more than 50 cent away from the right note).

You donīt hear that? Iīm surprised.


Wolfgang Eller
SRS Mastering/Germany
http://www.srs-mastering.de
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433835 11/27/03 01:12 PM
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Quote:
As for mixing only a minute of the song, Daniel, that's just goofy. Either it's a piece of music, or it's not. When we're talking about mixing, on some level we're talking about art. I think Henchman's challenge is; can you be expressive with this instrument, or do you have to have a console and a Fairlight to express your creative intentions. I'm not sure drawing a picture of just the nose will get you there...Sometimes the puzzle doesn't come together until you get closer to the finished product.
I could'nt agree more with your thoughts. But I do think that in this situation we do not judge the skill of the engineer to create 3 minutes of art, we do more like to know: is protools not able to get the same sound as other digital products. To see (or hear ) that one minute is enough. If this was a mixcontest (as made twice in this forum) I would agree that one minute makes no sence, since it is about music, and the skill if a engineer can create an interessting 3 minutes. But if only the sound of a plattform is what is interessting (and thats what henchman likes to see) than one minute is more than enough)

Quote:
As far as not liking the artist, all I can say is that I don't usually get to audition the people I mix for. They pick me because of something they heard, and I try to do the best I can to bring out the best in the artist, because you never know who will hear it and where it will go.
It is my personal opignion that I don't like it, and it should be ok to say that here. Still my offer is to do one minute of that thing.

BTW I would prefear 1000 times if someone neutral would spend some good recorded tracks with a good performance, and then different people (henchman, me, all who want) would mix the files on different DAW's.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433836 11/27/03 06:04 PM
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Superstrings Offline
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To Henchman,

Regarding Pro Tools import/export on Fairlight, it seems to be fair use to reverse engineer for compatibility purposes. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear from some material found on the web:

http://www.lgu.com/publications/softcopy/22.shtml
http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/appdev/story/0,10801,65532,00.html

Essentially, reverse engineering for the purpose of compatibility and hence for the benefit of consumers and the advancement of technology seems to be allowed. Of course Digidesign would not like it, exactly like Microsoft does not like Netscape (and I consider Digidesign to be in a monopoly situation within the audio industry nearly similar to Microsoft's within the IT industry - not quite because they have more competitors, but not very different either). I can only suppose that Digidesign had some leverage to make Fairlight stop because of whatever agreement they had signed, or perhaps because Fairlight's code was, even partially, borrowed from Digidesign.

S.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433837 11/27/03 09:01 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang Eller:
Me too.

But this is not slightly out of tune itīs sometimes way out of tune.

I can imagine if you try to tune it with autotune you have to do it manualy cause otherwise it will be drwan to the wrong next note (Sheīs sometimes more than 50 cent away from the right note).

You donīt hear that? Iīm surprised.
I was curieus about your comment so I also listen to it.
Ofcourse you can hear that the singer is not always pitching the "right note" but if you are complaining about this, then It says more about you then about the singer.

This girl is not bad at all. Music is all about character and not about that somebody sings a little and just a tiny little out of tune.

Probably you don't like Lou Reed either.

Henchman, I only listen to little shit computer monitors so I cannot say about the quality of the mix.

Our tascam M3500 is back from the revision and the first remarkable thing is that the mixes are better then before I mixed everything in protools.

It are the same mixes but right know with the deepnes I couldn't get with my protools setup.

This week I had to master an album which was mixed by a protoolsHD/procontrol studio and even these guys were a little schocked when I showed them my tascam mix.

They were very surprised about the deepness from my tascam mix compared with their own mix.

I think I made the right move.


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433838 11/28/03 02:55 AM
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Quote:
I was curieus about your comment so I also listen to it.
Ofcourse you can hear that the singer is not always pitching the "right note" but if you are complaining about this, then It says more about you then about the singer
I don't know you, Errol, and I don't know Wolfgang. But what you wrote here Errol, says many things about your person.

Daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433839 11/28/03 05:30 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Well, I have posted the song on a couple of other forums, and nobody has found the cocals horriblew or completely out of tune. Or any need at all to tune the vocals.

So. Let's just leave it at that.


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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433840 11/28/03 10:32 AM
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adebar Offline
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errol wrote
Quote:
Our tascam M3500 is back from the revision and the first remarkable thing is that the mixes are better then before I mixed everything in protools.

It are the same mixes but right know with the deepnes I couldn't get with my protools setup.
The question for me is: isnīt that a general observation when you compare mixes done in the analogue or in the digital domain?

If yes, it has nothing to do with PT.
If no, .....

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433841 11/28/03 11:22 AM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by adebar:
errol wrote
Quote:
Our tascam M3500 is back from the revision and the first remarkable thing is that the mixes are better then before I mixed everything in protools.

It are the same mixes but right know with the deepnes I couldn't get with my protools setup.
The question for me is: isnīt that a general observation when you compare mixes done in the analogue or in the digital domain?

If yes, it has nothing to do with PT.
If no, .....
nope, it's the "sound" of protools which is different then the "sound" of, for example a nuendo system.

Believe. it cost me a lot of time to find out that the problem was in protools.

Before I combined a O2r with protools.
But I couldn't mix properly.
So I sold the O2r and spend the money on a huge mix+++ system with digi's interfaces wher I put all my synth's in.

I spend a lot of money to fix our studio room last year. Because I thought it was my room.
I also bought westlake monitors and still I had the feeling, although I rebuild the whole studio,
that I couldn't mix properly.

What I did was mixing, putting it on a cdr and then I listen in my mastering room which is a very good sounding room to check for some mix problems.

All the time I was aware of a flat 2 dimensional sound.
I really didn't understand what I did wrong.

Then I spoke with a dance producer.
he told me that most of the good sounding dance producers are using analog mixers.

So that's what I did. I bought a 2hand tascam and it was immediatly hearable.

I even noticed that my room is pretty good to mix.
I hear so many things more then before I used protools.

A half year ago I had to master a funkband which was mixed with nuendo and a dm2000 from yamaha.
That was allready a good sounding mix with more 3 dimensional I ever heard in the digital domain.

But still I'm missing something even with a good DAW like nuendo and good mixer like dm2000.

I guess it's not my cup of tea.

btw Daniel. I remember suddenly that you were the guy who wanted to master in our place a time ago.
Then I offered you to do a song for free.
But because you were in a hurry I only could do it with fedex.
The only thing what you had to do was pay the fedex costs.
You never contacted me after you realized you had to pay for fedex. Not even a small email that the deal was not going on.

Does that says more about your person?

What I was trying to say is that there are a lot of guys here in the bussiness who are only busy with specs and technical stuff.
The same with music. They only listen to it if they can find a mistake.
Same with software.
They never enjoy music as it is.

I'm not saying this guy is like this but it looks like it.
That's all.


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433842 11/28/03 12:47 PM
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Quote:
btw Daniel. I remember suddenly that you were the guy who wanted to master in our place a time ago.
Then I offered you to do a song for free.
But because you were in a hurry I only could do it with fedex.
The only thing what you had to do was pay the fedex costs.
You never contacted me after you realized you had to pay for fedex. Not even a small email that the deal was not going on
Yep. But even with fedex, the producer desicded that it would not be time enough to master the whole CD at your place incase we'd liked your demo. So he desided that he did not want the try and we did it in Switzerland. Sorry if I not have sent you an email, you are right, I should have done that. I hope this says not toomuch about my person... I still consider you as an option for master projects I am working on. However I am not sure if I can give my mixes to a guy that must think that everything coming out of my place sounds like shit because PToTools is in the game?

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433843 11/28/03 01:10 PM
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Now there is some proof that PT can even cost you clients. :p


The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433844 11/28/03 03:47 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
btw Daniel. I remember suddenly that you were the guy who wanted to master in our place a time ago.
Then I offered you to do a song for free.
But because you were in a hurry I only could do it with fedex.
The only thing what you had to do was pay the fedex costs.
You never contacted me after you realized you had to pay for fedex. Not even a small email that the deal was not going on
Yep. But even with fedex, the producer desicded that it would not be time enough to master the whole CD at your place incase we'd liked your demo. So he desided that he did not want the try and we did it in Switzerland. Sorry if I not have sent you an email, you are right, I should have done that. I hope this says not toomuch about my person... I still consider you as an option for master projects I am working on. However I am not sure if I can give my mixes to a guy that must think that everything coming out of my place sounds like shit because PToTools is in the game?

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
I tell you what Daniel,

In the first place, don't get me wrong with "the person thing" I'm not angry or whatever.
It was more an example of when you say what kind of person somebody is or not.
In your case, it's not about you, this happens a lot and I can understand why you didn't mail me.
It happens only when you are in the middle of a busy company.

but you if you like you can send me a mix from your studio. In 24bit if you like.
I'm always open for suggestions.
In your case I'm curious about your mixes.

I'm not anti digidesign although I still haven't heard a mix without that typical flat sound.
I will listen yo your work with a open mind, so don't worry I'm a pro and as a mastering engineer I always listen objective.

Tell me if you send it to me and I will email you my adress.

btw,

Have a nice weekend.


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433845 11/28/03 06:11 PM
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Quote:
I tell you what Daniel,

In the first place, don't get me wrong with "the person thing" I'm not angry or whatever.
It was more an example of when you say what kind of person somebody is or not.
In your case, it's not about you, this happens a lot and I can understand why you didn't mail me.
It happens only when you are in the middle of a busy company.

but you if you like you can send me a mix from your studio. In 24bit if you like.
I'm always open for suggestions.
In your case I'm curious about your mixes.

I'm not anti digidesign although I still haven't heard a mix without that typical flat sound.
I will listen yo your work with a open mind, so don't worry I'm a pro and as a mastering engineer I always listen objective.

Tell me if you send it to me and I will email you my adress.

btw,

Have a nice weekend.
Thats a cool Idea. I am starting a bigger german project very soon, with great artits (Herbert Grönemeyer, Nena, Thomas D and many others. There is a big orchestra and band aswell). I d'love to send you the first mixed song. The projects is with the same producer as the project, where we did not have time to check you out.

Best
Daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433846 11/28/03 07:30 PM
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Hi guys & girls,

I just wanted to let you know that Errol mastered a pretty bad mix I did about a year ago, and he made a massive improvement! I will soon be in the position to be asking him for his services again, as I have been very disappointed with some of the so-called top mastering studios here in London who charge more than double Errol's price!

My experience in London with 2 very respected mastering places was very similar. More top end EQ, more bottom, multiband compression on a TC 6000 and bam! I didn't feel the engineers really listened to the tracks. They just did what they're used to doing. The artists ultimately preferred my mastering, all done within Wavelab! That is very sad.

Not so with Errol. He did what I could not do within my PC, which is why I will be using him again very soon. I'm sure Errol is blushing now! Sorry, but I just wanted to let you all know that he really knows his craft of mastering music. And for the record, I'm also not a big Pro Tools fan, but I have heard some good mixes done with it!

Chris

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433847 11/28/03 10:03 PM
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Quote:
My experience in London with 2 very respected mastering places was very similar. More top end EQ, more bottom, multiband compression on a TC 6000 and bam
Hehe, this could also be the perfect description of the so called "top" mastering studio in switzerland. (Just replace the TC 6000 with the crap in the finalizer, and there we go).

daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433848 11/28/03 10:20 PM
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Henchman Offline
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I wouldn't use any mastering place that used a finalizer or TC6000 as their main processig tool for final mastering.
i love the TC6000 for th other stuff it does though.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433849 11/28/03 11:41 PM
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Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff! In fact, the one place has mastered some of Robbie Williams` tracks, and when I was telling Errol how awful one of Robbie`s tracks sounds, Errol started laughing. He explained that he uses that track as an example of bad mastering for clients!!

Chris

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433850 11/29/03 12:35 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by axiamusic:
Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff!
Chris
Yes, well. isn't that becoming the trend with todays audio engineers and producers in general.
if they can use a plug-in, why put work and effrt into doing it right.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433851 11/29/03 08:17 AM
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remainanon Offline
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You know Henchy I agree with you there - but I'm lucky I guess because I never master where I don't want to, and never work with the crappy engineers of today.

Because I knob my own stuff!!!!

and of course I'm from yesterday as well...

Anyway - Yes, I lurked this thread incase I would find out anything new about life, and what I found out was I'd rather communicate with you about ANYTHING IN THE WORLD except ProTools!

Carry on - and cheers all
JW

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433852 11/29/03 10:13 AM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]Bottom line. Your employers have a clientel that justifies 12 rooms of Protools, but their needs are not being satisfied.

Opportunity.

-R
You seriously hvae no clue about operating a big business. Do you think that upgrading PT systems is the only thing that needs to be taken care of in a large facility.

I am so sick of people with one system thinking they have the answer for large facilities with multiple systems.
You're talking about a business that's running 12 rooms of Protools that aren't working properly. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. They're the ones with a problem, not me.

I spelled out the numbers. Instead of people investing a lot of emotion in being angry with Digi for whatever reason, perhaps they should just upgrade and have 12 rooms that work properly. Seems very cost effective.

Or invest in some other platform and stop griping.

I don't own a 12 room complex, but I've worked in large complexes that don't work properly, and let me tell you, the opportunity cost of not having your technology together is much, much greater than the cost of upgrading your PT systems.

You're going to defend this to the death, and consequently you'll always be forced to work on half assed broken down systems.

It's needless.

Get a clue yourself.

-R

Wait a minute, you don't own these systems yourself, do you? So what big business are you operating?

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433853 11/29/03 07:17 PM
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ptuzer Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by axiamusic:
Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff!
Chris
Yes, well. isn't that becoming the trend with todays audio engineers and producers in general.
if they can use a plug-in, why put work and effort into doing it right.
But what happens when the recorded company slashes your budget by 50% from the last record? They can't expect the same amount of time spent on the project. When budgets get slashed shortcuts happen-Sorry. \:\(

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433854 11/29/03 08:06 PM
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ptuzer,

Nothing to do with budgets in this case. You`re at a top place and it should take no more than an hour to master a track, no matter what equipment the engineer is using. When I asked the engineer why he wasn`t using some of the really nice analogue gear, he said that he could get as good results within the digital domain. I trusted his `expertise`, but now I reckon it was just laziness in this case.

Chris

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433855 11/29/03 08:14 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by remainanon:


Anyway - Yes, I lurked this thread incase I would find out anything new about life, and what I found out was I'd rather communicate with you about ANYTHING IN THE WORLD except ProTools!

Carry on - and cheers all
JW
Hahahahaha . Fair enough.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433856 11/29/03 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LawrenceF:

Steinberg is positioning (I believe) itself to do just that. Let me explain...

1. Nuendo is rapidly gaining market share and the trust of the pro audio industry. In a couple of years who knows where that product will be. It's I/O hardware (and actually many other mfg's I/0 hardware) is on par with the HD stuff. Sound quality is not the issue. The issue in the pro audio world is working with a computer that will behave like a hardware mixer during tracking and or mixing, effect sending and such. That's where PT grabbed it's market share.

2. Steinberg has the R&D money and coders skilled enough to keep their development moving along at a rapid pace. They are in the best position of any DAW mfg to do battle with Digi.

3. It wouldn't surprise me to see Steinberg come out with a DSP card system to compliment Nuendo in the next year or three. Again, they have the money and the engineering skills to do something like that if they want. I think that will be the next logical step for Nuendo (or whatever they call the DSP version), a "higher end" proprietary app with DSP cards.

I'll disagree about Steinberg. While they have the potential to overtake PT, they are losing serious ground. They often create new bugs when fixing old ones. They have a history of promising features that never appear, or losing features when they 'upgrade' Nuendo. Their updates are very slow when compared to Logic and Samplitude. They plan on a controller that's going to cost above 10k, and withhold promised support of other control surfaces. They didn't take advantage of Apple's purchase of emagic. If they had, they would be in a much better position and Logic (and Apple) wouldn't be seeing as much business.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433857 11/29/03 10:54 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TinderArts:
[QUOTE]I'll disagree about Steinberg. While they have the potential to overtake PT, they are losing serious ground. They often create new bugs when fixing old ones. They have a history of promising features that never appear, or losing features when they 'upgrade' Nuendo. Their updates are very slow when compared to Logic and Samplitude. They plan on a controller that's going to cost above 10k, and withhold promised support of other control surfaces.
All things that remind me of Digi.

How much was the Pro-Control when it was released? An that for only 8 faders and a completely useless center section.
It looks good, but in reality it's a glorified paperweight.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433858 11/29/03 11:12 PM
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errol Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
I tell you what Daniel,

Thats a cool Idea. I am starting a bigger german project very soon, with great artits (Herbert Grönemeyer, Nena, Thomas D and many others. There is a big orchestra and band aswell). I d'love to send you the first mixed song. The projects is with the same producer as the project, where we did not have time to check you out.
Best
Daniel
german project?oh,oh,....I just finished a restoration of 250 nrs of marlene dietrich, comedian harmonists, Hans Albers and zarah leander. \:D

Man believe me, this was almost hell \:D
I don't like restoration jobs so much but it gives me sometimes a kick, if I read on the source cd, that it was done with sonics no noise and stull I remove easily the noice and crackles without artifacts. I really like my cedar setup.

Daniel, I'm looking forward to hear from you.
I'm in a german mood hehehe

b.t.w., Thanx for the nice words Chris.
It's always nice to hear that other engineers like your work.

Time to put my prices up \:D

greetings from a dark misty but cozy amsterdam
have a nice weekend


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433859 11/29/03 11:25 PM
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edmann Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TinderArts:
[QUOTE]
I miss the Chipmunk, TinderArts.


Ed Mann
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433860 11/30/03 04:41 PM
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Ed, for you, anything.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433861 11/30/03 07:51 PM
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Ren. Offline
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Quote:
Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
After a nuclear holocoust, there are gonna be 3 things left on the face of the earth: Cockroaches, Cher and Pro Tools.

Just kiddin'. :p


Who Put The ' M ' In MySpace?
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433862 11/30/03 08:04 PM
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EXAGON Offline
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Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Every one offers:
BETTER SOUND
BETTER FEATURES
BETTER PRICE
BETTER STABILITY

So, Pro Tools is just a walking cadaver.


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433863 11/30/03 09:22 PM
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Zeke Smith. Offline
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So Pro Tools is a dead human body especially intended for dissection? Who would have known? Better tell all those engineers with one before things start to smell.


Current live rig: Roland RD700SX, Hammond XK-3 with Leslie System 21, and Muse Receptor. Also a Nord Stage 76 other times instead. And a Roland FP-7 for jazz gigs.
HOME: Kawai MP8 + a bunch of VI's.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433864 11/30/03 10:22 PM
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EXAGON Offline
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It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433865 12/01/03 12:18 AM
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artnoiser Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)
As a byreader, I thought I'd bring up a point here real quickly...

Just saying that something sucks because you don't like it, without giving any reason for it - no matter if it is for legit reasons (such as something actually sounding better than something else), or if it is purely a matter of taste ("I like my eq, yours sounds like crap") or for ANY reason in between these two (which could be made up by any degree of either of these two) is freaking BORING, and lacks ANY sort of depth, meaning and value.

Unless people, that express their most honest sentiment of dislike towards anything on these forums, use facts OTHER than "It's crap," they will always come off as people that really have nothing serious to say, and should not be taken seriously. Why? Because their opinions lack value to any person who wants these discussions to benefit his/her life as an audio engineer/recordist/whatever.

I know I could just skip reading those sort of comments, but I gotta read it before I know it's a useless comment. And I bet having to read these kind of comments make for a lovely waste of time for anyone.

Of course everyone has a right to express what they want to express...but why would someone want to be hurting their credibility that much, so they can could justify their exercise of this right???

Just an idea.

artnoiser
Aspiring Pro

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433866 12/01/03 02:33 AM
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433867 12/01/03 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by artnoiser:
[QUOTE]

Just saying that something sucks because you don't like it, without giving any reason for it - no matter if it is for legit reasons (such as something actually sounding better than something else), or if it is purely a matter of taste ("I like my eq, yours sounds like crap") or for ANY reason in between these two (which could be made up by any degree of either of these two) is freaking BORING, and lacks ANY sort of depth, meaning and value.

Aspiring Pro
I totally agree. Which is why I have listed numerous reasons and issues I've had/have when using pro-Tools.

As usual, the response is: The numerous systems I used are en't set up properly. And/Or buy HD and the issues will go away.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433868 12/01/03 03:02 AM
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Philter Offline
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The way I see it is, there are two camps of people here-

camp one. bitter people who spend their time maligning other people's tools.

camp two. people who don't.

Inherent in every "ProTools sucks" argument is the idea that people who use it are therefore deaf and indiscriminate in their methods.

And then, when you look at the list of who uses ProTools and what has been achieved with it, it becomes fairly obvious that the only problem is trolls like the ones in this thread.

Anyone who feels the need to spend post after post railing on a tool that countless users enjoy is just an asshole, plain and simple.

Funny, Henchman has a problem with ProTools. Everyone one else tells him it works. But it must be ProTools- even though he needs an all-in-one system, turnkey system like Fairlight to be happy, he can't consider the possibility that he's not up to the task of operating a component-based system.

So I guess here's the common ground: ProTools is too difficult for Henchman. You have to know what kind of drive to use. You have to know how to assign RAM. You have to be able to run a stable computer. That IS partly Digi's fault. Luckily enough for Digi, thousands of other users are capable of picking up the slack with this "difficult" platform, seem to love it, and even seem to be able to turn out hit after hit, score after score, mix after mix with the thing. Imagine that, it's a great commercial and artistic success with a massive base of users!

But Henchman and Tron say it stinks... we must all be terribly mistaken...


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433869 12/01/03 07:15 AM
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A
AEW Offline
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I have a PT HD2 system and it sounds OK. To my ears it could be much better, but to the people paying for the work ...well they like it and that's fine with me. Hench I know what u mean mate, but as soon as u say Protools and add HD to it, it's an instant hit with the client....job half complete right there. I use to care what gear i use, but now after seeing what some producers are getting away with, I just don't care anymore....and I'm talking about some BIG production stuff that makes millions.

Nick

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433870 12/01/03 08:04 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEW:
I use to care what gear i use, but now after seeing what some producers are getting away with, I just don't care anymore...Nick
And I think it's unfortunate that that's where the audio proffession has headed.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433871 12/01/03 11:42 AM
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sign Offline
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How right you are Mark, it's a shame.


The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433872 12/01/03 06:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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John Hope Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)
Opinions are not a feature. \:D

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433873 12/01/03 09:39 PM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
]Originally posted by RKrizman:
[qb]
Quote:

At least now I know when you're bashing Pro Tools you're talking about some prehistoric version.

-R
So, mixplus with g3's and a few G4's running 5.?
Well you had previously only mentioned G3's and didn't specify that it was a mixplus. There's no reason why a mixplus on a G4 should be at all unstable. At least no reasons that aren't easily accounted for.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433874 12/01/03 09:48 PM
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RKrizman Offline
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
[QB]Rkrizman,

I'm with you on upgrading the Pro Tools systems, but you must be on CRACK to even suggest a 15 year loan on a computer system of any kind! When the systems are obsolete (I'm being generous here) you would still have another 8-10 years of payments left. I know of no bank that would loan money on a computer system for a term of more than 5 years.

/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know what the cost of money is now for a 5 year business loan or lease. Anybody? I'd do a home equity loan myself, tied to my 15 year mortgage, which I could probably get for closer to 5% than 10%, but I doubled it just to estimate upward. My numbers may not be exact, but I bet they're the correct order of magnitude at least.

I have no qualms about borrowing for 15 years for computer recording gear. You might be still paying the loan off after it's in the junk heap, but in the meantime it may have profitted you ten or a hundred fold. I'm still paying for studio equipment I bought 15 years ago on a 30 year loan. Almost none of it is still in service, but it paid for itself over and over, and I could have paid off the balance of the loan some time ago if I wished, but it's nice to have money available at such low interest.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433875 12/02/03 12:15 AM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Well, I have posted the song on a couple of other forums, and nobody has found the cocals horriblew or completely out of tune. Or any need at all to tune the vocals.

So. Let's just leave it at that.
I work with a singer who does the same thing this singer does. Often when she attacks a word or syllable it pops a bit sharp. Very difficult to "tune" that at all, and especially without weirding out the emotional delivery somewhat. (I found myself wondering, what is it that works for Dido that isn't working for this girl?) In any case, it's certainly posible to compare mixes without addressing that question.

If you're making files available I'd love to lay this out on Pro Tools and see if it's possible to make something of it. It's actually something I sort of enjoy, with the droning guitars, implied 2nd line rhythm and frail girl singer.

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433876 12/02/03 06:07 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R
It should always be in the spirit of fun.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433877 12/02/03 07:40 AM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R
It should always be in the spirit of fun.
Damn straight. If I wanted to suffer all the time I could have been a darn good attorney.

So what about it. Will you make the files available? How about mailing me a Mac-compatible CDRom of whatever kind of files will work with protools. Wave? 44.1 or 48.

I'm checking out some new Adams monitors later this week and it would be fun to have something fresh to run up the flagpole.

Keep in mind that I don't mix other peoples stuff for a living, by and large, so I probably won't be much of a threat. But I do have a sense of how I'd like the tune to sound.

Well?

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433878 12/02/03 09:43 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R
It should always be in the spirit of fun.
Damn straight. If I wanted to suffer all the time I could have been a darn good attorney.

So what about it. Will you make the files available? How about mailing me a Mac-compatible CDRom of whatever kind of files will work with protools. Wave? 44.1 or 48.

I'm checking out some new Adams monitors later this week and it would be fun to have something fresh to run up the flagpole.

Keep in mind that I don't mix other peoples stuff for a living, by and large, so I probably won't be much of a threat. But I do have a sense of how I'd like the tune to sound.

Well?

-R
I'm just waiting for a sax player to coem in (hopefully on tuesday) to put a sax on the intro and outro. And I'll create a PT session at work formt he exported fairlight session.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433879 12/02/03 09:59 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[]I'm just waiting for a sax player to coem in (hopefully on tuesday) to put a sax on the intro and outro. And I'll create a PT session at work formt he exported fairlight session.[/QB]
I had thought the tune was finished, but that's cool. E-mail me at RKrizman@aol.com and I'll give you my mailing address.

But who uses saxophones these days?

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433880 12/04/03 12:09 AM
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popstar Offline
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Well, this is an interesting topic, albeit, it's coming about 2-3 years late.

As I have put forth in many threads on many different newsgroups, there is no stopping the ProTools juggernaut. It is and will be the standard format for at least the forseeable future. There is not a single company on the entire planet which could pose any sort of serious threat.

That surely doesn't mean that there are not many other, very worthy products...we've all discussed many of them through various threads. Logic, Nuendo, Radar, etc., etc. But even though these formats might have their supporters and users, if you're asking which company has or had the best opportunity to unseat Digi, the answer is ever so clearly "No such company exists". Digi losing the market will not happen for a long, long time, simply because formats which become so firmly entrenched do not come along very often. Over the last, say, 30 years, did any format actually unseat 2" tape to become THE most widely used format? Probably not...sure there was ADAT and DA88 and Sony 3348 and Mitsu digital, but did any of these actually displace 2" and the most popular format?

Not that we should be unhappy about it totally. After all, ProTools is a great product, all things considered. And, it's only going to improve from here. Mixing within ProTools will become more and more popular, and as more and more engineers become ProTools gurus, our methodry will improve, thus creating better sounding records using the sytem.

The only downside to all of this is that the format is owned by one company. I do consider that to be a considerable downside, but, it is what it is. If you're wondering which company could mount an attack of merit, of course, there is none and won't be for a long, long time...it could be game over in this area of the audio industry until something altogether new comes along.

poPStAr

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