Music Player Network

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433847 11/28/03 10:03 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 422
D
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
D
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 422
Quote:
My experience in London with 2 very respected mastering places was very similar. More top end EQ, more bottom, multiband compression on a TC 6000 and bam
Hehe, this could also be the perfect description of the so called "top" mastering studio in switzerland. (Just replace the TC 6000 with the crap in the finalizer, and there we go).

daniel

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433848 11/28/03 10:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
I wouldn't use any mastering place that used a finalizer or TC6000 as their main processig tool for final mastering.
i love the TC6000 for th other stuff it does though.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433849 11/28/03 11:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 102
A
axiamusic Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
A
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 102
Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff! In fact, the one place has mastered some of Robbie Williams` tracks, and when I was telling Errol how awful one of Robbie`s tracks sounds, Errol started laughing. He explained that he uses that track as an example of bad mastering for clients!!

Chris

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433850 11/29/03 12:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by axiamusic:
Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff!
Chris
Yes, well. isn't that becoming the trend with todays audio engineers and producers in general.
if they can use a plug-in, why put work and effrt into doing it right.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433851 11/29/03 08:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 944
R
remainanon Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
R
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 944
You know Henchy I agree with you there - but I'm lucky I guess because I never master where I don't want to, and never work with the crappy engineers of today.

Because I knob my own stuff!!!!

and of course I'm from yesterday as well...

Anyway - Yes, I lurked this thread incase I would find out anything new about life, and what I found out was I'd rather communicate with you about ANYTHING IN THE WORLD except ProTools!

Carry on - and cheers all
JW

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433852 11/29/03 10:13 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
R
RKrizman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
R
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]Bottom line. Your employers have a clientel that justifies 12 rooms of Protools, but their needs are not being satisfied.

Opportunity.

-R
You seriously hvae no clue about operating a big business. Do you think that upgrading PT systems is the only thing that needs to be taken care of in a large facility.

I am so sick of people with one system thinking they have the answer for large facilities with multiple systems.
You're talking about a business that's running 12 rooms of Protools that aren't working properly. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. They're the ones with a problem, not me.

I spelled out the numbers. Instead of people investing a lot of emotion in being angry with Digi for whatever reason, perhaps they should just upgrade and have 12 rooms that work properly. Seems very cost effective.

Or invest in some other platform and stop griping.

I don't own a 12 room complex, but I've worked in large complexes that don't work properly, and let me tell you, the opportunity cost of not having your technology together is much, much greater than the cost of upgrading your PT systems.

You're going to defend this to the death, and consequently you'll always be forced to work on half assed broken down systems.

It's needless.

Get a clue yourself.

-R

Wait a minute, you don't own these systems yourself, do you? So what big business are you operating?

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433853 11/29/03 07:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
ptuzer Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by axiamusic:
Yeah, what annoyed me most was that both places had amazing analogue outboard gear, but the engineers were just seemingly too lazy to use the stuff!
Chris
Yes, well. isn't that becoming the trend with todays audio engineers and producers in general.
if they can use a plug-in, why put work and effort into doing it right.
But what happens when the recorded company slashes your budget by 50% from the last record? They can't expect the same amount of time spent on the project. When budgets get slashed shortcuts happen-Sorry. \:\(

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433854 11/29/03 08:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 102
A
axiamusic Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
A
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 102
ptuzer,

Nothing to do with budgets in this case. You`re at a top place and it should take no more than an hour to master a track, no matter what equipment the engineer is using. When I asked the engineer why he wasn`t using some of the really nice analogue gear, he said that he could get as good results within the digital domain. I trusted his `expertise`, but now I reckon it was just laziness in this case.

Chris

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433855 11/29/03 08:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by remainanon:


Anyway - Yes, I lurked this thread incase I would find out anything new about life, and what I found out was I'd rather communicate with you about ANYTHING IN THE WORLD except ProTools!

Carry on - and cheers all
JW
Hahahahaha . Fair enough.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433856 11/29/03 08:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,524
BP3 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,524
Quote:
Originally posted by LawrenceF:

Steinberg is positioning (I believe) itself to do just that. Let me explain...

1. Nuendo is rapidly gaining market share and the trust of the pro audio industry. In a couple of years who knows where that product will be. It's I/O hardware (and actually many other mfg's I/0 hardware) is on par with the HD stuff. Sound quality is not the issue. The issue in the pro audio world is working with a computer that will behave like a hardware mixer during tracking and or mixing, effect sending and such. That's where PT grabbed it's market share.

2. Steinberg has the R&D money and coders skilled enough to keep their development moving along at a rapid pace. They are in the best position of any DAW mfg to do battle with Digi.

3. It wouldn't surprise me to see Steinberg come out with a DSP card system to compliment Nuendo in the next year or three. Again, they have the money and the engineering skills to do something like that if they want. I think that will be the next logical step for Nuendo (or whatever they call the DSP version), a "higher end" proprietary app with DSP cards.

I'll disagree about Steinberg. While they have the potential to overtake PT, they are losing serious ground. They often create new bugs when fixing old ones. They have a history of promising features that never appear, or losing features when they 'upgrade' Nuendo. Their updates are very slow when compared to Logic and Samplitude. They plan on a controller that's going to cost above 10k, and withhold promised support of other control surfaces. They didn't take advantage of Apple's purchase of emagic. If they had, they would be in a much better position and Logic (and Apple) wouldn't be seeing as much business.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433857 11/29/03 10:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by TinderArts:
[QUOTE]I'll disagree about Steinberg. While they have the potential to overtake PT, they are losing serious ground. They often create new bugs when fixing old ones. They have a history of promising features that never appear, or losing features when they 'upgrade' Nuendo. Their updates are very slow when compared to Logic and Samplitude. They plan on a controller that's going to cost above 10k, and withhold promised support of other control surfaces.
All things that remind me of Digi.

How much was the Pro-Control when it was released? An that for only 8 faders and a completely useless center section.
It looks good, but in reality it's a glorified paperweight.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433858 11/29/03 11:12 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 319
E
errol Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
E
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
I tell you what Daniel,

Thats a cool Idea. I am starting a bigger german project very soon, with great artits (Herbert Gr÷nemeyer, Nena, Thomas D and many others. There is a big orchestra and band aswell). I d'love to send you the first mixed song. The projects is with the same producer as the project, where we did not have time to check you out.
Best
Daniel
german project?oh,oh,....I just finished a restoration of 250 nrs of marlene dietrich, comedian harmonists, Hans Albers and zarah leander. \:D

Man believe me, this was almost hell \:D
I don't like restoration jobs so much but it gives me sometimes a kick, if I read on the source cd, that it was done with sonics no noise and stull I remove easily the noice and crackles without artifacts. I really like my cedar setup.

Daniel, I'm looking forward to hear from you.
I'm in a german mood hehehe

b.t.w., Thanx for the nice words Chris.
It's always nice to hear that other engineers like your work.

Time to put my prices up \:D

greetings from a dark misty but cozy amsterdam
have a nice weekend


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433859 11/29/03 11:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 314
E
edmann Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
E
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally posted by TinderArts:
[QUOTE]
I miss the Chipmunk, TinderArts.


Ed Mann
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433860 11/30/03 04:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,524
BP3 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,524
Ed, for you, anything.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433861 11/30/03 07:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,859
Ren. Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,859
Quote:
Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
After a nuclear holocoust, there are gonna be 3 things left on the face of the earth: Cockroaches, Cher and Pro Tools.

Just kiddin'. :p


Who Put The ' M ' In MySpace?
don\'t_click | day_job
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433862 11/30/03 08:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,358
E
EXAGON Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,358
Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Every one offers:
BETTER SOUND
BETTER FEATURES
BETTER PRICE
BETTER STABILITY

So, Pro Tools is just a walking cadaver.


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
UIPLPPICDSS
Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi
Att. Tua Sorella
Codice Mavapigliatelindomo
Pirla Chi Legge
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433863 11/30/03 09:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,327
Z
Zeke Smith. Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
Z
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,327
So Pro Tools is a dead human body especially intended for dissection? Who would have known? Better tell all those engineers with one before things start to smell.


Current live rig: Roland RD700SX, Hammond XK-3 with Leslie System 21, and Muse Receptor. Also a Nord Stage 76 other times instead. And a Roland FP-7 for jazz gigs.
HOME: Kawai MP8 + a bunch of VI's.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433864 11/30/03 10:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,358
E
EXAGON Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,358
It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)


\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
UIPLPPICDSS
Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi
Att. Tua Sorella
Codice Mavapigliatelindomo
Pirla Chi Legge
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433865 12/01/03 12:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 333
artnoiser Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)
As a byreader, I thought I'd bring up a point here real quickly...

Just saying that something sucks because you don't like it, without giving any reason for it - no matter if it is for legit reasons (such as something actually sounding better than something else), or if it is purely a matter of taste ("I like my eq, yours sounds like crap") or for ANY reason in between these two (which could be made up by any degree of either of these two) is freaking BORING, and lacks ANY sort of depth, meaning and value.

Unless people, that express their most honest sentiment of dislike towards anything on these forums, use facts OTHER than "It's crap," they will always come off as people that really have nothing serious to say, and should not be taken seriously. Why? Because their opinions lack value to any person who wants these discussions to benefit his/her life as an audio engineer/recordist/whatever.

I know I could just skip reading those sort of comments, but I gotta read it before I know it's a useless comment. And I bet having to read these kind of comments make for a lovely waste of time for anyone.

Of course everyone has a right to express what they want to express...but why would someone want to be hurting their credibility that much, so they can could justify their exercise of this right???

Just an idea.

artnoiser
Aspiring Pro

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433866 12/01/03 02:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9
B
BlackScarlet Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433867 12/01/03 02:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by artnoiser:
[QUOTE]

Just saying that something sucks because you don't like it, without giving any reason for it - no matter if it is for legit reasons (such as something actually sounding better than something else), or if it is purely a matter of taste ("I like my eq, yours sounds like crap") or for ANY reason in between these two (which could be made up by any degree of either of these two) is freaking BORING, and lacks ANY sort of depth, meaning and value.

Aspiring Pro
I totally agree. Which is why I have listed numerous reasons and issues I've had/have when using pro-Tools.

As usual, the response is: The numerous systems I used are en't set up properly. And/Or buy HD and the issues will go away.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433868 12/01/03 03:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,025
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,025
The way I see it is, there are two camps of people here-

camp one. bitter people who spend their time maligning other people's tools.

camp two. people who don't.

Inherent in every "ProTools sucks" argument is the idea that people who use it are therefore deaf and indiscriminate in their methods.

And then, when you look at the list of who uses ProTools and what has been achieved with it, it becomes fairly obvious that the only problem is trolls like the ones in this thread.

Anyone who feels the need to spend post after post railing on a tool that countless users enjoy is just an asshole, plain and simple.

Funny, Henchman has a problem with ProTools. Everyone one else tells him it works. But it must be ProTools- even though he needs an all-in-one system, turnkey system like Fairlight to be happy, he can't consider the possibility that he's not up to the task of operating a component-based system.

So I guess here's the common ground: ProTools is too difficult for Henchman. You have to know what kind of drive to use. You have to know how to assign RAM. You have to be able to run a stable computer. That IS partly Digi's fault. Luckily enough for Digi, thousands of other users are capable of picking up the slack with this "difficult" platform, seem to love it, and even seem to be able to turn out hit after hit, score after score, mix after mix with the thing. Imagine that, it's a great commercial and artistic success with a massive base of users!

But Henchman and Tron say it stinks... we must all be terribly mistaken...


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433869 12/01/03 07:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 205
A
AEW Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
A
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 205
I have a PT HD2 system and it sounds OK. To my ears it could be much better, but to the people paying for the work ...well they like it and that's fine with me. Hench I know what u mean mate, but as soon as u say Protools and add HD to it, it's an instant hit with the client....job half complete right there. I use to care what gear i use, but now after seeing what some producers are getting away with, I just don't care anymore....and I'm talking about some BIG production stuff that makes millions.

Nick

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433870 12/01/03 08:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by AEW:
I use to care what gear i use, but now after seeing what some producers are getting away with, I just don't care anymore...Nick
And I think it's unfortunate that that's where the audio proffession has headed.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433871 12/01/03 11:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,216
sign Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,216
How right you are Mark, it's a shame.


The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future.
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433872 12/01/03 06:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 9
John Hope Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
It always smelled: it's sound smells.
It destroy all mixes.
No serious sound engineer would destroy his work by mixing in pt.
It's a good editing machine, if you record with pristine AD and use no gain or plugins and route the tracks to direct out pristine DA converters (not digiof course)
Opinions are not a feature. \:D

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433873 12/01/03 09:39 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
R
RKrizman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
R
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
]Originally posted by RKrizman:
[qb]
Quote:

At least now I know when you're bashing Pro Tools you're talking about some prehistoric version.

-R
So, mixplus with g3's and a few G4's running 5.?
Well you had previously only mentioned G3's and didn't specify that it was a mixplus. There's no reason why a mixplus on a G4 should be at all unstable. At least no reasons that aren't easily accounted for.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433874 12/01/03 09:48 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
R
RKrizman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
R
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
[QUOTE]Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
[QB]Rkrizman,

I'm with you on upgrading the Pro Tools systems, but you must be on CRACK to even suggest a 15 year loan on a computer system of any kind! When the systems are obsolete (I'm being generous here) you would still have another 8-10 years of payments left. I know of no bank that would loan money on a computer system for a term of more than 5 years.

/QUOTE]

I honestly don't know what the cost of money is now for a 5 year business loan or lease. Anybody? I'd do a home equity loan myself, tied to my 15 year mortgage, which I could probably get for closer to 5% than 10%, but I doubled it just to estimate upward. My numbers may not be exact, but I bet they're the correct order of magnitude at least.

I have no qualms about borrowing for 15 years for computer recording gear. You might be still paying the loan off after it's in the junk heap, but in the meantime it may have profitted you ten or a hundred fold. I'm still paying for studio equipment I bought 15 years ago on a 30 year loan. Almost none of it is still in service, but it paid for itself over and over, and I could have paid off the balance of the loan some time ago if I wished, but it's nice to have money available at such low interest.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433875 12/02/03 12:15 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
R
RKrizman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
R
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Well, I have posted the song on a couple of other forums, and nobody has found the cocals horriblew or completely out of tune. Or any need at all to tune the vocals.

So. Let's just leave it at that.
I work with a singer who does the same thing this singer does. Often when she attacks a word or syllable it pops a bit sharp. Very difficult to "tune" that at all, and especially without weirding out the emotional delivery somewhat. (I found myself wondering, what is it that works for Dido that isn't working for this girl?) In any case, it's certainly posible to compare mixes without addressing that question.

If you're making files available I'd love to lay this out on Pro Tools and see if it's possible to make something of it. It's actually something I sort of enjoy, with the droning guitars, implied 2nd line rhythm and frail girl singer.

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433876 12/02/03 06:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]

Can we do this? And if so, can it be in the spirit of fun?

-R
It should always be in the spirit of fun.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3