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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433787 11/24/03 11:20 PM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
I mean, fairlight was a glorified multitrack, not even the same kind of product as ProTools.

So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?
SFairlight is not bankrupt. They are still in business.

And it is/was way more than a glorified tape recorder. Which you would know, if you ever have the chance to get soem real hands-on time with one.

I , on the other hand deal with PT's everyday. And just want it to work the way proffessional gear shoudl work.

That's all.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433788 11/24/03 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WireLine Studio:
Consider: there are unlimited pros and cons for each and every format out there...latency, track count, compatability, resource management, blah blah blah...exactly NONE of these issues have anything to do with the final product: the song...These are merely devices to achieve the desired end result. The performance of a great song doesn't care which format was used...only the engineers/producers care...and if an engineer/producer cannot translate well prepared, recorded, and performed elements into the desired end result, then that engineer/producer needs to find something else to do ("would you like to supersize that?")

Pardon my rant...its just that I think sometimes we all forget that what we do is more important than the tools we use to do it...
I applaud this thought one hundred percent.

HOWEVER... When one has the ability to achieve great mixes on the barest essentials of tools, even they will achieve greater results with better tools of the trade.



Haven Music Productions
Tampa, FL

www DOT havenmp DOT com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433789 11/24/03 11:33 PM
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Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433790 11/25/03 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?
http://www.fairlightau.com

Also, let me know where I can pick up an HD system with 48 channels of I/O, synch options, soundminer ADR package AND a compter for 6k and I'm there.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433791 11/25/03 01:55 AM
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Not an HD system, a mix system. I've got 16 inputs and 64 tracks. I could add another 16 inputs for $2,000, although I won't because I don't need them.

The Fairlight looks good for someone coming from a hardware background. I come from a software background. I got started with sequencing software in the 80's instead of analog tape. I'm used to software being interchangeable, adaptable, flexible, disposable, portable, scaleable. You want a product that acts like an anchor: always there, doing exactly one thing and doing it well, nothing more, nothing less.

Limitations I can see with Fairlight:
  • expensive
  • no MIDI
  • dedicated hardware means limited applications/general inflexibility
  • limited track count
  • wasteful control surface not optional
  • few customizeable options
  • are there plugins?
  • limited development partners
  • no portable solution


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433792 11/25/03 11:28 AM
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adebar Offline
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Quote:
So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?
It depends:

If you wanna do mastering there are many DAWs with better solutions - SADiE, Sonic Solutions, Audio Cube.
Even Sequoia is better.

If you need a multitrack production system PT is good, but there are alterantives like Nuendo and Logic, or Pyramix,..... With Nuendo it is possible to have a less expensive solution which has almost the same features like PT. But there is the plug in situation. PT offers more - also more cheapo things nobody needs.
Pyramix is a great system too - and I think Ive forgotten to mention others.

Im not able to come to a conclusion. PT is still the standard but I think it wont be THE standard in the future.

In future there may be a common file standard where it is easy to export and import audio files with EDLs from and to every DAW - than nowbody asks for a standard of a machine if there is a good working exchange stadard.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433793 11/25/03 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Where is Fairlight's website? At least I could get a better idea of what I was talking about.

I found an ad for some all-in-one box for $68,000. That's nuts. My mix system, computer/inputs included, cost $6000. That's less than 1/10th the price. And it's also not an all-in-one, which means my system also runs Digital Performer, Finale, soft synths, and all my records/business stuff. The all-in-one thing doesn't appeal to me at all.

Does Fairlight have plug-ins? MIDI? Notation?
protools hasn't also midi. well they call it midi but it is unusable.
plugins?? 80% is also unusable.

Ever heard the sound of a fairlight??
Even one of the first fairlights which kate bush used in the past, sounds still incredible.

It's just what henchman says.... Every 1,1/2 year upgrading of all the hardware without fixing the bugs is ridiculous.

But that's one of the reasons digi is still alive.


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433794 11/25/03 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by adebar:
[QUOTE]
In future there may be a common file standard where it is easy to export and import audio files with EDLs from and to every DAW - than nowbody asks for a standard of a machine if there is a good working exchange stadard.
Which DIGI is very hard trying to prevent. This is why they stopped Fairlight from implementing the Pro-Tools import and Export function on Fairlights.

I do Midi stuff all the time, using my $500,- 2Ghz PC. I know I won't have to upgrade my fairlight for a long time, becasue it's proprietary. And I don't need to kerep exchanging hardware just to run a new OS. This is why i can still use a 10 year old MFX3Plus, and have it still be extermely productive.
Hell, I know people that still use Synclaviers, becasue they kick ass.

Ask anybody to add up what they've spent on their Pro-Tools systems in the last 10 years, and that includes the continouous MAC upgrades, and see what the final cost is.

And since most people have said that PT HD has finally started sounding ggod, then that emans they were content in using an inferior product for all those years.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433795 11/25/03 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adebar:
[qb][QUOTE]
And since most people have said that PT HD has finally started sounding ggod, then that emans they were content in using an inferior product for all those years.
uuuhhh henchman, dont' tell this anybody.
I'm still selling my protools rig \:D


cut-n-clear
Mastering and cdr/dvdr copy centre
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433796 11/25/03 08:34 PM
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Of course HD sounds good. What a dumb "point." So if someone does something better, all of a sudden, all their earlier achievements become failures? "Gee Mr Ruth, this year you hit ten more home runs than last year. We're going to fire you because you weren't playing your full game last year." Pathetic. I've heard that one before and it sounds more desperate every time.

Mix systems sound fine with a skilled operator. It's so dumb to be arguing if ProTools sounds good enough when it's all over the radio, all over television, all over the movies. Subjectively, go ahead and gripe as much as you want in your own tiny sphere of influence. The circle-jerk ProTroll feeds exclusively off their own verbal excrement. Objectively, by every market and audience standard, ProTools works. It's good enough for the rest of the world. If you\'re better than the rest of the world, so be it.

I've programmed scores for major cinematic releases using nothing but ProTools MIDI, so please save the bullshit about it not working. The MIDI editing is as awesome as the audio editing in PT, because they followed the same philosophy, and kept it inline on the same window as the audio.

Q. Why don't you ever see ProTools users out Trolling other platform users?
A. Because they're content.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433797 11/25/03 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Q. Why don't you ever see ProTools users out Trolling other platform users?
The man does have a point there.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433798 11/26/03 12:22 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Of course HD sounds good. What a dumb "point."
Nope. the point is, that everyone said that pro-Tools sounded amazing, utill HD came out. The suddenly the same people defending PT's startede talking about mix buss issues. the need to use external analogue bussing devices etc.

And then there are the PT useres, who bought into the HD thing again, only to discover that it still was lacking, and started looking elsewhere.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433799 11/26/03 12:50 AM
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Philter Offline
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I don't know who this phantom "everyone" is that you keep referring to, but it seems very similar to the persona known as "Henchman." Could it be so?


----------------------------
Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433800 11/26/03 03:10 AM
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Remember what this thread was about?

My vote: Steinberg.

Nuff said.

Lawrence

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433801 11/26/03 04:18 AM
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edmann Offline
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this is why I like bongos and a little clay flute


Ed Mann
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433802 11/26/03 05:33 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
I don't know who this phantom "everyone" is that you keep referring to, but it seems very similar to the persona known as "Henchman." Could it be so?
I remember very clearly numerous people making these comments. Don't pretend it nevre happened. I remebr for a fatc, that Jules of Gearslutz was one of them.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433803 11/26/03 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:

Hell, I know people that still use Synclaviers, becasue they kick ass.

Ask anybody to add up what they've spent on their Pro-Tools systems in the last 10 years, and that includes the continouous MAC upgrades, and see what the final cost is.

LOL, considerably less than a Synclavier, I promise you that. And Synclaviers truly suck. I speak from experience. A quarter of a million dollars for monophonic sampling. A sequencer that measures note events with glacial resolution. Oh, did they upgrade? Perhaps I was working with an inferior product, at least when the the usually frozen Winchester drive decided it would let me work at all. Yeah, we should all have a Synclavier.

What's your problem Henchman? You're foaming at the mouth here. Your rant has been well documented, time and again. I mean, it's no skin off my back if you use a Fairlight. More power to ya. Sounds like for what you do, Fairlight works the best. But few people do exactly what you do, so what's the point of all this.

I swear I don't work for Digi, but my PT system is rock solid. So is everyone else's I know of. The only crash I've ever experienced since upgrading to HD more than a year ago, was caused by trying to add another Bombfactory plugin to a session.

And believe me, there was no trauma setting it up. Plug in the cards, install the program and go.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433804 11/26/03 10:17 AM
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Henchman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:


What's your problem Henchman? You're foaming at the mouth here. Your rant has been well documented, time and again.
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?

If you go back a page, and read the issues I run into on a daily basis, then you might understand the frustration.
And when you have a producer and acting talent looking at you because the POS didn't go inot record again, it gets old pretty damn quick.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433805 11/26/03 10:27 AM
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Man, you've got a real hang up.


----------------------------
Phil Mann
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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433806 11/26/03 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?

If you go back a page, and read the issues I run into on a daily basis, then you might understand the frustration.
I don't know and I don't care. I've sitting in studios with SSL's 4000 G+. Many of them worked great, because they where in good condition. One of them was in such a terrible condition, that the recording could always not have been finished.

Quote:
1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.
1) Never had at any place. But well, you shouldn't try to run PT or any DAW with a System with 256 MB

2) Never had, but a studend had it at the musicuniversitie's ProTools with a firewire drive. It was on a mix plus, and with that systems you had to check with the Digi Compatible List. Neidless to say that his drive was not on the list.

5. If I remember back that was a mistacke by a plugindevelopper, not Digidesign. And they had a fix very quick.

7) Would be nice, but there are much more things, and imo more important things I want to see implemented in PTools

For the other points I never heard of those issues.

If you run into the issues you described really on a daily basis, than that is truly and without any discussion the fault of the guy that installed and maintained the system. If the system was not stable, or suffered the problems you mention I was the first that would change.

To your other comment about the people using mix plus and then HD, yadda, yadda: Well, if you use PT as a taperecorder, spliiting the outs to a console, then there is no difference (exept the higher sampling rate) in the quality. If you mix in the Box then what is the problem if the mixer has improoved? It is not much difference to the DM2000 which mixbus also sounds better than the one in the 02R. And I would still prerear to mix on a old Mix System, than on a Mackei Digital Board.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433807 11/26/03 12:49 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



1. Never had that problem. I am currently running a Gig of RAM, but I never had the problem even with half that amount.

2. Hmmm... never seen that one either. I've done 32 tracks off the C drive... my D drive works great and so does my removeable external Firewire drive.

3. Boy, you have not used PT in a while, have you? That's ancient hardware. \:\)

4. I've never had a problem with PT going into or out of record on demand.

5. Old issue. Single plug in vendor's problem, long ago fixed.

6. Bypassed plug ins still take resources... but you can disable a plug in, and it won't. Use the right method for what you're after - both are available and both work fine.

7. True. But you can always IMPORT and convert that 16 bit file if you want. It's never been a major issue for me, but I can see where some people would find it a issue.

Again, my PT systems have all been rock solid in daily use... and on a PC at that! \:\)


Phil O'Keefe
Sound Sanctuary Recording
Riverside CA
http://www.ssrstudio.com
http://www.philokeefe.com
pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com
My New Forum on Harmony-Central
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433808 11/26/03 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?
Because you have bad Karma? \:D

I mean, there can't be any other reason unless you are totally surrounded by "PT/computer impaired" individuals.

I've met a few, but I didn't know there were that many.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433809 11/26/03 07:43 PM
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RKrizman Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[Why is it that i have yet to run into a rocksolid system?
I used to work with a guy who's Mac screen would be showing a bomb so often that I thought that it was his desktop background. He had fragmented drives, extension conflicts, outdated software, not enough memory, and so forth. We spent more time rebooting his computer than recording tracks. He once LOST an entire live network television show's worth of music 2 weeks beffore the show. Had to all be redone.

Basically his system was broken and in poor repair. Sounds like that's the problem with your friend's system. I'm beginning to think your whole long history of slamming Protools is based on working with a few people with broken studios.

You should treat yourself to working with a system that is at least basically functioning, after which you might want to re-evaluate your opinion. I mean, I could talk about all the lame-assed, buggy Fairlight systems I've worked on, but that doesn't reflect the current state of the art. Neither, apparently, does your experience.

If I lived in your area, I'd buy a G4, slap in an HD3 system, hire a 12 year old to run it, and put those guys out of business.

-R

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433810 11/26/03 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman:
[QUOTE]
If I lived in your area, I'd buy a G4, slap in an HD3 system, hire a 12 year old to run it, and put those guys out of business.

-R
Tell you what. You tell the company I work for that you'll pay to upgrade all 12 of their systems to HD, and replace allt heir G3's for G4's.

Doesn't make alot of sense does it.

Why shoudl a company have to continually upgrade., just to have systems workign properly.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433811 11/26/03 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
And I would still prerear to mix on a old Mix System, than on a Mackei Digital Board.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
Well, I tell you what. I am going to be do a comparison mix of a song I am working on. I'll b mxing it at my place on the Fairlight/D8B.
Then, I'm going to do a mix using PT's and the Euphonix. And the a straight Pt mix.
Now, not being a PT user, that would give teh PT format a disadvantage,
I'll get you a copy of the song, and you do a mix on PT's.


IMDB Credit list
President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433812 11/26/03 09:07 PM
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I would take you up on that offer. And how would we keep score? I suppose we should just keep count of how many times our systems crash...Or is it which mix you like best?

soulconnect@earthlink.net

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433813 11/26/03 09:50 PM
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Logic is going to achieve this if Apple manages its ownership of Emagic correctly. They have the R&D funding capable of producing an optimized system. If Logic would align itself with the TC Powercore or Universal Audio UAD the DP G5's running Logic and an effects dsp could set the audio retail world on it's ear. We are talking about a $2000 G5(probably january), a $500 Logic program, and a $1000 effects card. This setup, optimized correctly, could leave PT in the dust.
Logic would have to focus on a more intuitive audio recording /editing platform and fine tune the DP's of the G5(which they are already ahead of Protools on). The new industry standard- affordable, powerful, and easy to use. Apple if you are listening I need a job.

Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433814 11/26/03 10:15 PM
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Quote:
We are talking about a $2000 G5(probably january), a $500 Logic program, and a $1000 effects card. This setup, optimized correctly, could leave PT in the dust.
How would you get audio in and out of such a system? Add a good $3000 (Rosetta 800 with FireWire card?) for multi channel A/D and D/A.

At this rate you are looking at being close to an HD1. Not sure I see the dust yet. But if Emagic could sort out the audio environment, I would agree, this would be a strong contender.


Yorik
Stone In A Pond


"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."
Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433815 11/26/03 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
I would take you up on that offer. And how would we keep score? I suppose we should just keep count of how many times our systems crash...Or is it which mix you like best?

soulconnect@earthlink.net
It's more to really hear the difference for me personally. And I am not an experienced PT user, so I could see how the me mixing it would an unfair comparison.


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Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools? #433816 11/26/03 10:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 440
[/QUOTE]It's more to really hear the difference for me personally. And I am not an experienced PT user, so I could see how the me mixing it would an unfair comparison.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Let me know when the song is ready. If I have time, I'd love to check it out.

soulconnect@earthlink.net

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