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#433757 - 11/18/03 02:24 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
errol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Amsterdam,,NETHERLANDS
Quote:
Originally posted by EXAGON:
Numbers, buddies, numbers.
I'm serious. maybe a little bit exagerated, but seriously, today, you can do 100 times more than pro tools with:
Logic 6
Nuendo
Creamware
Soundscape
Samplitude
and many many other DAW,
for 1/10 of the fooling price.
I know a studio in holland who uses nuendo.
It's a good studio.
they also have a protools rig just for clients who thinks they need it.

he says in a intervieuw that if he has to work in protools he feels it's like working in the very past. It's workin with a huge handicap.

Also soundwise it's a handicap. So what they are doing is bringing it a.s.a.p. into nuendo.
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#433758 - 11/18/03 08:29 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
Daniel, dont get me wrong.
I'm not blaming you as a person.
I see. No offense taken:-)

Quote:

But you are dead wrong if you say that digi is always the first with new features.
Did I really said it this way? (I did not go back to check...). Anyway of course that would not be true and probably what I wrote in that point came over in a wrong direction. There are lots of point which I think should be in a professional DAW which are not implementated in PT (auto delay compensation, snip and insert time... ), no question. What I basically meant was that Digidesign is able to develop their hardware so that they can bring out new Systems on a regular timebasis. And imo thats why they are always in front of "only" native systems. In two years there will be faster g5's or maybe g6's, whatever, but Digidesign will also have made it to deliver new cards. I do not know anohter firm which delivers cards and new truly-DSP systems on such a regular basis. And native systems for me (and only for me) do not work for the mentioned reasons. The time might come (or not) where I go to a native systems, but not now. And for now ProTools Systems offer me what I need. Everytime I do a hardware upgrade I seriously do check all the alternatives. Once I changed to Paris (at this time the best Digidesign had to offer was PT 24, which imo was to expensive, for what it was. ) I was lucky with Paris. But with Digidesigns Mix Plus I changed again... If something comes out that works better for my needs than PT's I will change again with no hesitation. DAW's are Tools, and I take what I think is best for my needs.

Quote:


Also about listening to a protools mix or a neve mix is something I already have heard.

I can tell you exactly when a mix is totally digital or analog mixed.

And I also can hear if it's done with a protools mix.

And I'm talking about a mix which is fully mixed in protools.

It's just like henchman says. It sounds bad to me and I'm serious thinking that a lot of top 40 productions which are made in protools are soundi ng bad.

There are as many bad mixes around made on analog desks as on digital (speak protools if you want). But you are right, in European Charts there are Songs where me too I clearly hear bad mixes, where I can say that they where made on ProTools. But I also believe that I could say, what the engineers made wrong. (And I was not sure if they did a better mix on a analog desk.)

Quote:
I'm selling my protools mix system because when I bought a second hand tascam M3500 my sound was improving in a way I never heard with my protools rig.

Same mix in a M3500 sounds already so much richer and opener with so much more detail then the same mix with my protools system.
Thats hard to believe. I am totaly sure that if I mix a mix on a tascam and on ProTools there would be no comparision. The PT Mix would be millions better in every direction. But thats just me.

Quote:
So if you tell me that you don't like a mix from a Neve and choose for a protools mix then what can I say?
So you don't think it is possible that the engineer who mixed on the neve had a bad day and another Engineer with a good day delivers a better mix on ProTools? I am quite sure that if I gave you the two mixes and told you to choose and master the one that you thought was better sounding, you would have choosed the better sounding, nomatter on which system it was mixed.

Don't get me wrong, I don't say a neve sounds bad. Its mixbus has a sound, and very clearly a great one. But neither does Protools sound bad. It is a digital mixing system, and imo its mixbus doesn't have a sound, it just adds the track together. The Reason I prefear to work digitally (this time with Protools) is also out of practical reasons. (And I do all reverbs with hardware, so it is not completly a "mix in the Box" isn't it:-)

Quote:

Youre right????
I am right and so are you. We both are valuable engineers but just with different opignions on certain technics.

Cheers
Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433759 - 11/19/03 06:33 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
errol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Amsterdam,,NETHERLANDS
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#433760 - 11/21/03 06:49 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
tom@aerovons.com Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/15/00
Posts: 257
Loc: UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)
I find using PT's to record NEVER stress free. Always problems. Plug-ins suddenly going sideways. System not locking to picture. Losing preferences.
Henchman, then that's a problem in YOUR system. If it were that unreliable it wouldn't be number one.

I use it 8 hours a day and ALMOST never have a problem. In fact the only time I notice I have problems is when I download a demo plug in or something. Under OSX I have been amazed that I just plain don't crash anymore. I'm all for ANY other system I could go to that would keep me from chasing Digi's hardware "upgrades" every two years so I am hoping to hear Nuendo soon. But if it doesn't work on the Mac under OSX, it's outa here...I will NOT give up my Mac;)

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#433761 - 11/22/03 04:23 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by tom@aerovons.com:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Henchman:
Henchman, then that's a problem in YOUR system. If it were that unreliable it wouldn't be number one.
I use it in various rooms, 10 -12 hours a day.
Always issues. Period.

i have worked in various facilities, and have had stupid problems in every single one.
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#433762 - 11/22/03 06:25 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
I use it in various rooms, 10 -12 hours a day.
Always issues. Period.

i have worked in various facilities, and have had stupid problems in every single one.
What a shame :-(

I have worked in various facilities as well and have never had any problem. Exept once, and there it turned out , that technicians of the studio there who knowed nothing about Protools tried to optimize the system (they loeaded OS updateds which where not supported etc).

A proper installed PT System is as stable as it can get. I installed a PT System in a Jazzclub, and it is running without any problems five years now. The Recording Studio here around where I often track my recordings has a PT System (along the Studio 820), never any problems there as well. My System (earlier a Mix, now HD), no Problems. The Abbey Road ProTools (where I had the luck to track an orchestera session for a project I mixed), no problem there as well.

If installed right, the thing is dammed stable, period.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433763 - 11/22/03 06:26 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
deleted, double post. Is there no way to completly delete a double post?

d

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#433764 - 11/22/03 06:55 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:


I have worked in various facilities as well and have never had any problem. Exept once, and there it turned out , that technicians of the studio there who knowed nothing about Protools tried to optimize the system (they loeaded OS updateds which where not supported etc).

A proper installed PT System is as stable as it can get. I installed a PT System in a Jazzclub, and it is running without any problems five years now. The Recording Studio here around where I often track my recordings has a PT System (along the Studio 820), never any problems there as well. My System (earlier a Mix, now HD), no Problems. The Abbey Road ProTools (where I had the luck to track an orchestera session for a project I mixed), no problem there as well.

If installed right, the thing is dammed stable, period.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
Well, I guess all the technicians, as well as dealers here in town must be complete morins then.

Tell me, how many 1 hour shows have you worked on? Ever done lock to picture?
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#433765 - 11/22/03 07:57 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
errol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Amsterdam,,NETHERLANDS
QUOTE]Well, I guess all the technicians, as well as dealers here in town must be complete morins then.

Tell me, how many 1 hour shows have you worked on? Ever done lock to picture?[/QB][/QUOTE]

Henchman, it's a canadian thing I guess.
It has something to do with the air I've heard.
The better the air the better the lock to picture. \:D

I never have heard of a stable protools system.
Oke it's not crashing 10 times a day anymore but as with all software there is always something.

You have to live with that I guess.
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#433766 - 11/22/03 10:31 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Rheolwr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 210
Loc: Caernarfon,,UNITED KINGDOM
Well I suppose I'm lucky. Radar does enough for me 99.9% of the time. It's only crashed without operator error once in over two and a half years and week ago a couple of home PT users went home after a day's recording mighty impressed. I monitor on ATC 100A and it sound wonderful.
I suppose if you're doing stuff which is only ever heard on TV or radio you can get away with butchering your sound. Give me HI-FI any day. I prefer to record good music properly than try o make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
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#433767 - 11/22/03 11:05 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
wireline Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 1646
One thing to remember in this 'discussion'... as (most of us are) humans, we want to think that whatever decision WE make is the only one, and that anyone making a different decision is insane...religion, politics, hair styles, you name it - and it seems that choice of DAW fits right nicely into that idea...bashing someone because they chose a different platform from which to work really is pretty childish...I can also say with confidence that anyone who has had their position radically changed because of the seemingly endless barrage of PT/Logic/Nuendo/2" tape/Fill-in-the-blank 'discussions' contained in these pages is being guided by a force other than their own abilities, work habits, and experience...Great recordings have been made using PT, Mackie d8b, Logic, 12 track mixers, Samplitude, 2" 16 track, ADAT, in-the-box, 4 track cassette machines, Sony Oxford, wax cylinders, Neve, Sonar, Paris, 1/2" mono tape, 15ips, 30ips, HDR, Radar, etc etc etc... I've never heard of any record being bashed or praised based on the recording format, except in the 'pro audio' pages of the internet...

Consider: there are unlimited pros and cons for each and every format out there...latency, track count, compatability, resource management, blah blah blah...exactly NONE of these issues have anything to do with the final product: the song...These are merely devices to achieve the desired end result. The performance of a great song doesn't care which format was used...only the engineers/producers care...and if an engineer/producer cannot translate well prepared, recorded, and performed elements into the desired end result, then that engineer/producer needs to find something else to do ("would you like to supersize that?")

Pardon my rant...its just that I think sometimes we all forget that what we do is more important than the tools we use to do it...
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#433768 - 11/22/03 11:32 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
BlackScarlet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 9
IMO technical features are very important for the end result. Technical progress can even create new music styles (hip-hop, techno, electronica ) or at least determine the sound of a production.
The better and easier a feature is implemented the more room for creativity you have (knowing that limits may help creativity aswell).

Another must for me personally is the best possible reliability, thats why I choose Soundscape .

The general discussion of features is important as it could help in finding an Engineer the right tool for his work. It also helps developers making the right choice for development.

But you are right, all technical features mean nothing without the creator behind using it in the right way and in the end it comes down to the result that has to be great: musically or comercially (or both).

But this doesnīt mean a technically founded discussion about features is worthles. (I agree that this doesnīt happen in most forums in the right way and very often the choice of daw seems to be more based on hype and hippness than the actual technical achievements the DAW can do)

All the best

Wolfram

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#433769 - 11/22/03 12:09 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Rheolwr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 210
Loc: Caernarfon,,UNITED KINGDOM
Congratulations Wolfram, Soundscape is the only DAW I considered capable before buying my Radar. The final decision was made because of intuitiveness for visiting engineers and producers and for speed; I didn't want to wait for waveforms to be drawn after the event. It's much more useful if you can see them as youre' recording.
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#433770 - 11/22/03 02:55 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
That's why I chose Fairlight for my own studio. After having suffered the wrath of PT's at other studio's I worked at.

And I too have yet to personnally see a crash proof PT system.

Again Yesterday I was doing a "save copy as" function. Copying all audio files to a final master directory. At the end I get the message "PT's is low on memoy and will exit".
So, another reboot was in order to check the copied session. What a load of crap.

Or how about having to reboot the whole computer after adding a drive, and PT's unable to refer to the audio files because it's not a "audio" drive. Bullshit.
More wasted time.

Figuring out why suddenly The system won't chase. Only to find out, that it mysteriously lost the SSD prefernces.

During ADR recording, hitting record. Only to have it NOT go into record, and having to stop, and try again.
Happens numerous times on ADR sessions.

Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.
Or bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled. And having to go back several minutes in a show and relay those parts, because of this.

And the un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session. So you are forced to work in either, or waste more time and drive space having to have the existing files copied into the same format. What a joke.

All wasted time.

I'm sure NOBODy has ever experineced these kinds of things. Yet they happen all the time. And these are just a few of the things why I consider PT's such a mickey mouse, un-proffesional system.
It wastes my time, and therfore wastes money.
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#433771 - 11/23/03 06:48 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Wolfgang Eller Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 84
Loc: Erlangen,,GERMANY
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
All wasted time.
So why donīt you use your second time bankrupted beloved Fairlight and donīt waste our time.

Iīm working since a half a year with 3 different HD 2/3 systems on OSX with sessions between 10 and 80 tracks, loads of plugins and automation, syncing with SSL MT or stand alone.
Not a single freece.

So sometimes itīs not the system, sometimes itīs the user (and how to setup the system). :rolleyes:
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SRS Mastering/Germany
http://www.srs-mastering.de

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#433772 - 11/23/03 08:16 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
sign Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 2216
Loc: NETHERLANDS
It seems to me that PT users often can't handle criticism.
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#433773 - 11/23/03 09:22 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philip O'Keefe Offline
10k Club

Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
And I too have yet to personnally see a crash proof PT system.

I beta test for a few companies (sorry, I won't mention them all due to wanting to avoid problems with the NDA's), and beta software / plug ins are about the only things that's ever crashed my PT setup. Maybe others have had some serious problems, and I've seen plenty of that over on the DUC, but with a Digi approved system and a bit of time setting it up (far less in my experience than is required by most other production hardware / software) PT has always been rock stable for me - and I'm on my third PT computer.

Nothing's crash proof (even hardware), but PT comes the closest to that ideal out of any software I've ever used. If I couldn't rely on it, I wouldn't be using it.
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Sound Sanctuary Recording
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#433774 - 11/23/03 10:10 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
t seems to me that PT users often can't handle criticism.
Far away. The point is, that there are people out there, who have the boring attitud to come into every thread about protools and cackle how "bad" PT is, and (if you read between the lines) how innorant people who use ProTools are. They might or might not have had a bad experience with PT, and now they make it to their live-task to chop and bash for everything with the name Digidesign on it .

There are several things concerning audio equipment that I don't like for what ever reason. Lets say, just for an example that I don't like Rode Microphones. Would I now just go to every thread concerning rode mics and write how bad those microphones are? Of course not. But the well known PT bashers just do exactly that.

I wish that those forums come get back to a place where professionals can share and discuss their opignions. Critics (also on PTools) would be very welcome, but not bashing. And there is a world difference between the two. At the end, as we say in my lagnuage: Its the tone which makes the music.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433775 - 11/23/03 12:55 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
errol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Amsterdam,,NETHERLANDS
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#433776 - 11/23/03 03:56 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
The problem with most PT usres, is that they base their opinions on THEIAR system, that is only operated by them.
Now, try and use a system like PT in a facility where you have numerous users using various systems in one day, and that's when it falls apart.
A pro system should be rocksolid, no many how many peopl use it.
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#433777 - 11/23/03 03:56 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 4025
Loc: North New Jersey, USA
If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?
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#433778 - 11/23/03 08:43 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?
The studios I work at have excellent support.

But it's so much easier to keep blaming the studio's and saying it's the fault of bad set-ups, isn't it.
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#433779 - 11/23/03 08:45 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
If you've been working at studios without good PT support, you should consider not doing so. Would you work at a studio that didn't maintain their console? How about one that didn't zero out the board after a session?
The studios I work at have excellent support.

But it's so much easier to keep blaming the studio's and saying it's the fault of bad set-ups, isn't it.
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#433780 - 11/23/03 10:56 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 4025
Loc: North New Jersey, USA
Hmmm, it seems to be working for most of the world.

You should try setting your output buffer higher; you'll get less errors that way.

;\)
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#433781 - 11/24/03 04:18 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Hmmm, it seems to be working for most of the world.

You should try setting your output buffer higher; you'll get less errors that way.

;\)
So, setting the buffers higher will solve the following problems?

1. "PT's is low on memory and will exit" message

2. PT's unable to refer to audio files because it's not an "audio" drive.

3. Lost USD preferences.

4. During ADR recording, hitting record, NOT going into record, and having to stop, and try again.

5. Plug-ins suddenly spitting out noise.

6. Bypassed plug-ins STILL being enabled.

7.The un-ability to mix 16 and 24 bit files in the same session.
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#433782 - 11/24/03 04:59 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 4025
Loc: North New Jersey, USA
No, you should set YOUR output buffers higher.
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#433783 - 11/24/03 05:47 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
No, you should set YOUR output buffers higher.
Or lower my standards and expectations of what I think pro gear should actually do.
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#433784 - 11/24/03 05:54 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Extreme Mixing Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 440
Loc: Van Nuys ,CA,UNITED STATES
Henchman,

Which Pro Tools system are you using that still relies on a Smpte Slave Driver (SSD)? Most of those were retired years ago in favor of the USD. The new box for HD is called the Sync I/O. Maybe you should upgrade?

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#433785 - 11/24/03 06:06 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by soulconnect@earthlink.net:
Henchman,

Which Pro Tools system are you using that still relies on a Smpte Slave Driver (SSD)? Most of those were retired years ago in favor of the USD. The new box for HD is called the Sync I/O. Maybe you should upgrade?
I mistyped. They are USD's.

They are not my system's, thank god.
But I see no reason why a facility should have to upgrade 9-12 sytems to deal with the issues I mentioned. Accompanied with the cost of plug-in upgrades, and the non-availabilty of post-conform for OSX.
I find that completely out of control.

It seems that that is the answer always givne. "Upgrade, and everything will beb fine". When I don't have any of the above problems when using even an MFX3plus, that is 10 tears old.

Fix the issues with systems already sold, insteasd of dumping all development resources into the next "new" thing.

Now it's HD accel. What's next. How many upgrades, and how much money do you have to give digi to end up with a system that finally works 100% the way it should?.
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#433786 - 11/24/03 06:13 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 4025
Loc: North New Jersey, USA
I don't have any particular love for Digi and I would love to see a truly competitive alternative arise.

What is annoying is people with singular subjective experiences Pro-Trolling for dubious reasons, ie bitter after having banked on a failed platform, or in Tron's case, bitter about cat food spots.

If some of these pros took the time they spent trolling about ProTools and applied it to learning the system, they would be much more productive.

What should we do Henchman, all switch to a bankrupt format? Do you know something that does what ProTools does, and is better for some reason? I mean, fairlight was a glorified multitrack, not even the same kind of product as ProTools.

So is the conclusion of this thread, no, nothing is positioned to compete with ProTools?
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Phil Mann
http://www.wideblacksky.com

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