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#433727 - 11/15/03 08:28 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
They just did something like this on the PSW. Same song. One analogu one PT mix.

It was quite easy to recognize the harsh sound that PT's inflicts on audio.

So, if you want to repeat the same test, go right ahead. But you need to use the same master tapes.

I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.
Not really. I think that comparision of that song you describe (it was the tread from prduceher, right?) was in many forums. I and most others very clearly prefered one mix over theother. And this was the ProTools mix.

In my case in both projects all listener choosed the proTools mix to to be far superiour. Both where bigger projets, and the proTools mixes where the one choosen to be on the CD.

I really don't know where the frustration of people like you come from in regards to protools. It is a digital system like any other. It's mixbus doesn't have a sound. I wish people would stop that nonsence bashing by just about everything with the name Digidesign on it.

On many projects I have the choice to mix on either a Neve VR, a SSL 4000G+ or a Protools HD. And basically allways my choice is the PT Room. But honestly it could be every digital system, thats just what I prefear for mixing, better total recall (very important to me), and mostly more transparent mixes. Yes, I like the sound of the Neve VR, as I liked the sound of a Studer 820, but in digital world, with good converters, the sound is just much closer to the original, and thats what I like with digital. It is like a mirror. Record your signal in a good way, and thats what you get.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433728 - 11/15/03 09:21 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
BlackScarlet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 9
For certain clients Soundscape 32 is already a great alternative choice for protools as its mixing and audio capabilities are also based around DSP cards.

Soundscape Website

Regards

Wolfram

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#433729 - 11/15/03 03:24 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:

Not really. I think that comparision of that song you describe (it was the tread from prduceher, right?) was in many forums. I and most others very clearly prefered one mix over theother. And this was the ProTools mix.
The funny thing is, that it was pretty much only PT users that prefferred the PT mix, as the results showed. I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.

I guess some people prefer that kind of sound. I don't.

And I guess that's why so many records are sounding like crap these days, because there's alot of people that have only ever used PT's in the engineering seat.
To me it's like growing up and only ever eating coolwhip. Then when you taste real whipping cream you don't like it. Even though real whipping cream tastes better than coolwhip.

BTW. Have you ever tried any other digital platforms?
Radar, Nuendo, Fairlight, Soundscape?
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#433730 - 11/15/03 03:35 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
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Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang Eller:
Quote:
Originally posted by Henchman:
[QUOTE]I just wish PT users would stop pretending that it sounds as good as analogue.

It doesn't.
Youīre right Henchi - itīs better!
You wish
:p
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#433731 - 11/15/03 03:37 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
ptuzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
/QB]
I have found the exact opposite Tight bottom Smooth top end.
IMO if you can't get HD @96k to sound good brother, your doing something wrong.
I guess it's the old Coke VS Pepsi debate.

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#433732 - 11/15/03 03:54 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Quote:
I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
/QB]
I have found the exact opposite Tight bottom Smooth top end.
IMO if you can't get HD @96k to sound good brother, your doing something wrong.
I guess it's the old Coke VS Pepsi debate.
I'm just telling you what I heard. And these were blind tests.

And I can get my Fairlight to sound great at 48k.
\:D
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#433733 - 11/15/03 04:18 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
The funny thing is, that it was pretty much only PT users that prefferred the PT mix, as the results showed. I found the PT mix to have the typical PT harshness, and lack of nice bottom.
It was shown in I think 4 forums, and only in 3 of the 4 people prefeared the PT Mix. But anyway, even if you never believe me that, it is not because of PT or not PT, it is because of different mixers. Period.

Quote:

And I guess that's why so many records are sounding like crap these days, because there's alot of people that have only ever used PT's in the engineering seat.
Not me for sure, and not many others.

Quote:

BTW. Have you ever tried any other digital platforms?
Radar, Nuendo, Fairlight, Soundscape?
Radar is a multitrack recorder, not a DAW. its sound depends on the converter. I have not used Nuendo, Fairlight, only a few time Soundscape. I used Paris on a regular basis and also Pyramix. I used Sony DMR 100. Whats your point? All the system sounded as good, as the converters before were.

I don't think that this discussion leads to something. I don't have a problem with people that criticies something. But I think it is annoying to deal with people that are just stupidly bashing products whitout any scientific input.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433734 - 11/15/03 05:03 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:

But I think it is annoying to deal with people that are just stupidly bashing products whitout any scientific input.

Daniel
http://www.ideeundklang.com
You can't base spomething like aduio quality on science. Anything can look good on paper.

I use PT's every day. I have used numerous other digital systems, and therefore have a good frame of reference.
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
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#433735 - 11/15/03 05:32 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
Quote:
You can't base spomething like aduio quality on science. Anything can look good on paper.

I use PT's every day. I have used numerous other digital systems, and therefore have a good frame of reference.
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
Thats fine with me:-)

Daniel

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#433736 - 11/15/03 09:44 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
ptuzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
Quote:
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
I guess that's why more people use PT than every other DAW on the market combined.
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
Logic is the only other sequencer that even comes close and it's really only good for me because I can use Protools DSP/Plug-ins and I/O with it.
OK flame away I can take it.

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#433737 - 11/15/03 10:06 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
EXAGON Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 1358
Loc: Switzerland
Topic: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?



Every one
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http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
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#433738 - 11/15/03 10:40 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Quote:
PT's is at the bottom for me. Both in the user interface/design and soundquality.
I guess that's why more people use PT than every other DAW on the market combined.
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
Logic is the only other sequencer that even comes close and it's really only good for me because I can use Protools DSP/Plug-ins and I/O with it.
OK flame away I can take it.
Each and every statement us just simply not true.
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#433739 - 11/15/03 10:47 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
ptuzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
Well That's a good come back. The truth hurts Digi is number one.

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#433740 - 11/16/03 12:43 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
Well That's a good come back. The truth hurts Digi is number one.
Yes, well I'm sure tascam sold more portastudio's than Otari did 24 tracks.

Thgat doesn't make it better, now does it.

Next you'll try to convince me that a plug-in reverb sounds as good or better than hardware.
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President George Washington: "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion."
President Abraham Lincoln: "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion."

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#433741 - 11/16/03 06:03 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Alndln Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by ptuzer:
1) No other DAW can supply the same number of I/O otions
2) No ther DAW can supply the same number of quality PI's
from different companies.
3) No other DAW can supply the same number of tracks and DSP with Zero stress the the CPU.
4) No other DAW has such an easy to use interface.
I have nothing against PT at all,but those statements are waaaaayy out of whack.1)Even Sonar will take as many i/0 as you can throw at it.2)McDSP doesn't make me jealous.3)Even though you can hook up a Magma box full of UAD and powercores to any DAW,even a PT rig suffers from CPU stress so that's nonsense.Plus in the real world were dealing with native along with cards.4)Since it lacks things like direct VI support,PDC,pedestrian midi implentation and a host of other goodies due to it's post nature your probably right on your last point.Again,I have nothing gainst PT other than it doesn't suit my needs, but the so called strenghts your pointing out are non exsistant.I don't use a Mac or Logic but if I did I know where I'd head straight to.PT is basically a digital tape recorder with nice editing software that's beggining to fall way behind the competition feature-wise.Sure they were there first and are firmly implanted in major studios,but if they just came on the scene today...............
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#433742 - 11/17/03 01:57 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Electrox Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 46
Loc: ,NJ,UNITED STATES
Would be interesting if some company released a box that was reversed engineered of what a TDM card did, better yet, make it firewire compatable, and you could use it with any computer/software. All digi plugs available that way...

Also, I remember back in 1991 dreaming a scenerio where the major computer OS companies bought up sequencer companies to incoeporate them into the OS.
I got a lot of laughs from that one. Now, Apple with Logic is not incorporated, but what would happen if Microsoft "absorbs" Avid? Now, rethink. Microsoft "absorbs" Steinberg?

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#433743 - 11/17/03 11:08 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Alndln Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Electrox:
Would be interesting if some company released a box that was reversed engineered of what a TDM card did, better yet, make it firewire compatable
Works with just about everything but PT. http://www.tcelectronic.com/PowerCoreFireWire
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#433744 - 11/17/03 01:14 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
ptuzer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/24/02
Posts: 479
Loc: Toronto
Powercore has only a fraction of the DSP of one Digi Accel card. Isuppose it's OK to use if you can't aford Protools.

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#433745 - 11/17/03 01:28 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Daniel_Dettwiler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 422
Loc: 4125 riehen,,SWITZERLAND
And there is a world difference between truley DSP orientet Systems (as ProTools, Paris, Pyramix), and Native Systems whit additional third party DSP Cards (as Powercore). The point is, that you need to go from the CPU to the DSP and back while mixing. The typical buffer settings for this are mostly 512 samples, and thats not really acceptable (even with latency compensation). (It is quite the same as if you want to have HTDM native plugins in protools, either do everything native, or everything with a DSP System, but the problems introduced by a mixage of both is not really solved this day.

Daniel Dettwiler
http://www.ideeundklang.com

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#433746 - 11/17/03 04:38 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Philter Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 09/19/01
Posts: 4025
Loc: North New Jersey, USA
Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems. Have you noticed the latency numbers on the powercore stuff? If you've never used a TDM/HD PT rig, you may not even be aware of their best feature, which is incredibly low latency- measured in single samples, as opposed to milliseconds with other systems.

I do agree that Digi has been slow to improve on the features front lately. All their energy has been going into hardware, and the software is suffering as a result.

The key to any other system truly competing with Digi will be eliminating latency to the point where you can monitor post-insert and post-fader as you're tracking, like on any other real mixer.

If we're talking about sequencers, plenty of the apps out there are already established and working better than PT... DP and Logic come to mind as great sequencers.
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#433747 - 11/17/03 11:59 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems.
Too bad they still can't do a sample accurate synch.
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#433748 - 11/18/03 02:20 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Alndln Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by Philter:
Latency in native and other DSP cards is still a deal-killer. There's simply no comparison to Digi's TDM/HD systems.
I guess it would be a deal killer with software that doesn't support PDC,but since I monitor through my soft at 2.9ms throughout with PDC and live input ect.,I have no latencey issues to speak of.I can do most projects natively at 32+,DSP cards are just cake after that,not to mention FX Teleport http://www.fxteleport.com/ .Again,I'm not the one here knocking PT,the Accel based systems are really nice,but Digi is not offerring me any more power or quality then I can obtain elswhere if I choose,or at least more than I need.For me it comes down to software environment/limitations and compatibility(what's availible to that platform).There's no shortage of power or quality for a variety of platforms so it's more a matter of aligning yourself with what your needs require.If only we had these choices in the early 70's...................
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#433749 - 11/18/03 07:42 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
BlackScarlet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 9
To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)

The low latency argument for DSP is also valid. I a) consider 2.9ms not acceptable for drums and percussion recording and b)
2,9ms (at 44.1k) is not the reality-value for Native DAWS. The guy above doesnīt count in the latencys of the AD/DA Conversion which ads up dependingly on the choosen Converter. The value also implements using the lowest possible buffersetting, which is not a real-world buffer-setting. Most people still have to deal with at least 512 samples. If you want to track 24 tracks at the same time 24 bit ,96k see a native DAW crying at 64samples buffers for doing the job right.

DSP Expansionscards ala Powercore are a great solution for mixing, but not tracking. The possible appearing conflicts between different PC-Components are preprogrammed and sometimes need a lot of investigation time before the things work 100%. I donīt have this time, I want to record now.

Thats one of the reasons why I chose for a DSP system ( Soundscape ) which has an overall AD/DA in/out latency of 61 samples. I can have realtime punch-out like in the good old tape-days and insert most of the plug-ins without adding further latency. And the sync-features works 100% aswell.

Regards

Wolfram

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#433750 - 11/18/03 08:43 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
EXAGON Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 1358
Loc: Switzerland
Any crap software below 100$ lixe magix (it's a crap sold in supermarkets) can do more than Pro Tools
Pro Tools is dead. It's paleontology, it's a bad past nightmare, it's a fooling in your mind.
Open your mind, create better sounding music.
_________________________
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(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
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#433751 - 11/18/03 08:50 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
BlackScarlet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 9
----------------
Any crap software below 100$ lixe magix (it's a crap sold in supermarkets) can do more than Pro Tools

----------------
LOL (especially with the picture on the left, fits great)

You are not serious, right ?

Wolfram

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#433752 - 11/18/03 10:10 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Alndln Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 08/15/00
Posts: 6451
Loc: ,NY,UNITED STATES
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
The low latency argument for DSP is also valid. I a) consider 2.9ms not acceptable for drums and percussion
I do it all the time,and with headphones.The drummers aren't compensating or complaining.I also track guitar with Amplitube that way.I am a fanatic about timing,if there was even a hint of latencey or delay I'd wouldn't be looking for another solution,I'd have it already.
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#433753 - 11/18/03 10:38 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
errol Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 319
Loc: Amsterdam,,NETHERLANDS
Quote:
Originally posted by Daniel_Dettwiler:
Quote:
Dear Daniel,

I feel very sorry to say but you don't know what you are talking about.

Dear Errol

I could say the same if I read your comments. But I probably wouldn't have written it because because I respect the opignions of other engineers, even if they are the complete oposites of mine.

Quote:
01 - Mixing properly, only in protools, with a procontrol is not possible.
Even the HD sounds flat and 2dimensional.
So that means that a lot of "protools studio's" will have all the same flat sound, which is the case right know.
I'm a mastering engineer and I receive weekly a few HD mixes to master.

There is hope, only if you route it through a analog mixer.
Internally mixing in protools is a joke.
Comparing with for example nuendo the difference is bigger then big.
Those points are all just pure plain wrong imo. Can I do something to prove the oposite ? ( I mean this seriously). I have two old projects which have been mixed by two different engineers, one mixed on PT one on a Neve VR. One Project was a Jazz Project, one a Film Score. Do you think you could tell which mixes are the PT's and which the analogs? (Although I would not be sure if I could find the masters of both, I'd had to ask the client...)

Best
Daniel
Daniel, dont get me wrong.
I'm not blaming you as a person.

But you are dead wrong if you say that digi is always the first with new features.
That has nothing to do with no respect for other engineers but it has to do with facts.
And what you are saying is not true.

Also about listening to a protools mix or a neve mix is something I already have heard.

I can tell you exactly when a mix is totally digital or analog mixed.

And I also can hear if it's done with a protools mix.

And I'm talking about a mix which is fully mixed in protools.

It's just like henchman says. It sounds bad to me and I'm serious thinking that a lot of top 40 productions which are made in protools are soundi ng bad.

I'm selling my protools mix system because when I bought a second hand tascam M3500 my sound was improving in a way I never heard with my protools rig.

Same mix in a M3500 sounds already so much richer and opener with so much more detail then the same mix with my protools system.

So if you tell me that you don't like a mix from a Neve and choose for a protools mix then what can I say?

Youre right????
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#433754 - 11/18/03 11:19 AM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
EXAGON Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 1358
Loc: Switzerland
Numbers, buddies, numbers.
I'm serious. maybe a little bit exagerated, but seriously, today, you can do 100 times more than pro tools with:
Logic 6
Nuendo
Creamware
Soundscape
Samplitude
and many many other DAW,
for 1/10 of the fooling price.
_________________________
\:\) Features Are Not An Opinion. \:\)
(John Hope, 2003)
http://johnhope.blogspot.com/

Addresse:
UIPLPPICDSS
Ufficio Internazionale Per La Presa Per Il Culo Dei Sbruffoni Statunitensi
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#433755 - 11/18/03 12:06 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
soundman_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/03
Posts: 10
I guess for me it comes down to the price. Since my studio's only been open for a year or so, I'd rather spend my money on hardware that doesn't go out of date so quickly. I want to spend my money on highend mics, mic preamps, monitors, compressors, reverb etc. I'd probably be using this stuff twenty years from now. Computer hardware your lucky to get 5 years out of till you have to upgrade.
I'm not knocking PT at all. I would love to have a kick ass TDM system. It's just not really needed right now. I seem to be able to do everything I need to with Logic and Sonar3. Maybe I'll go that route in the future. The way computer technology advances, I just can't decide when I'd take the plunge.

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#433756 - 11/18/03 02:19 PM Re: Which company has or had the best opprotunity to compete with Pro Tools?
Henchman Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 3433
Loc: Vancouver,,CANADA
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackScarlet:
To me DSP systems are still essential for a stressfree recording and mixing session. The hardware is tailored for the task and you donīt get in any trouble with inserting only one (the wrong) plug-in at the wrong time and the whole rig crashes. (Like I had 2 days ago with inserting a 2nd plug-in instance of Virtual Guitarist inside of logic.)
I find using PT's to record NEVER stress free. Always problems. Plug-ins suddenly going sideways. System not locking to picture. Losing preferences.
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