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#33678 02/17/02 01:23 AM
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I haven't posted for a while ,I have a bunch of new rough,avant-Bop,fusion,bloozy and NOT SMOOTH Jazz pieces for your critical attention. and would also love to see more jazz music from others to listen to on this great forum
mp3.com/Stanley_Sagov

[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: sagov@bellatlantic.net ]

Sound, Studio, and Stage Island
#33679 02/17/02 01:28 AM
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nah....

we're LAKERS fans

#33680 02/17/02 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cereal:
nah....

we're LAKERS fans


I've always hated the Lakers.


So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
#33681 02/17/02 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KHAN:


I've always hated the Lakers.


I can understand your bitterness

#33682 02/17/02 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cereal:


I can understand your bitterness


You can?

Interesting, since I have no idea why I hate them.

Could you fill me in?


So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
#33683 02/17/02 05:35 AM
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Cuz they probably beat the snot out of your favorite team

#33684 02/17/02 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cereal:
Cuz they probably beat the snot out of your favorite team


My favorite team WAS the Buffalo Braves, who ceased to exist a long long time ago.... \:\(

Now I really couldn't give a Rat's ass! \:D


So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
#33685 02/17/02 06:15 AM
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But for some reason I still hate the Lakers....


So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
#33686 02/17/02 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KHAN:
But for some reason I still hate the Lakers....

What label are they on? They sound like a pretty rough bunch.
Is it "acid" jazz?
Fuckin Druggies

#33687 02/17/02 06:33 AM
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Pro sports bores me anyway.

As to jazz-It usually bores me too unless some guy is totally kicken it up. Big swing OTOH is a whole different ballgame. Brian Setzer, or any of the old-time heroes can kick some serious butt

#33688 02/17/02 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cereal:
nah....

we're LAKERS fans


Unless the Wizards and MJ are playing that is.....


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
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#33689 02/17/02 09:47 AM
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No, wait, I'm not finished... I'm not a Jazz fan, but I *am* a Stockton fan.

Karl Malone has John Stockton to thank for his career... that's why he seems to miss All Star games - by himself he's just a really big fouling whiner of Danny Ange proportion and he probably knows it.


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#33690 02/17/02 04:44 PM
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....the perfect reason to watch the outdoor channel, with all the alt sports, biking of all kinds, surfing, snowboarding, etc......maybe even some hippiefied frisbee competition!
To get back to the original post....I like jazz from the twenties and thirties....when it had lots of blues still in it.....really cool.


Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
#33691 02/17/02 06:03 PM
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Don't know why this guy likes Jazz, his home team is the Celtics

#33692 02/17/02 06:04 PM
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Well, I am a Jazz and a Lakers fan.

Love Russell Ferrante, Jimmy Haslip, Shaq O'Neil, Kobe Bryant, Dave Weckl, Derek Fisher, Bob Mintzer, Tom Kennedy, Devean George, etc.

Albert


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#33693 02/17/02 06:36 PM
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Heck with the NBA...

REd WinGS RUlE!!


"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
#33694 02/17/02 06:46 PM
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Man, you guys are ruthless. I guess I am the only true jazz fan here. That's what I do and that's what I love. Chick Corea, Jarrett, Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Metheny, Phineas Newborn Jr., Clifford Brown, Wayne Shorter, Zawinul, Lovano, Herbie, Liebman, Towner, Elvin, Dexter, Oscar Peterson, Sco, Mathew Shipp, Braxton, Freddie Hubbard, Bird, Nguyen Le, Bill Evans, Duke, Monk, Brecker, Maria Schneider, Mendoza, Joe Henderson, Holland, Fats, Rollins, McCoy Tyner . . .


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33695 02/17/02 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
Man, you guys are ruthless. I guess I am the only true jazz fan here. That's what I do and that's what I love. Chick Corea, Jarrett, Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Metheny, Phineas Newborn Jr., Clifford Brown, Wayne Shorter, Zawinul, Lovano, Herbie, Liebman, Towner, Elvin, Dexter, Oscar Peterson, Sco, Mathew Shipp, Braxton, Freddie Hubbard, Bird, Nguyen Le, Bill Evans, Duke, Monk, Brecker, Maria Schneider, Mendoza, Joe Henderson, Holland, Fats, Rollins, McCoy Tyner . . .


Geez, I never knew those guys shot hoops! Much less for Utah...

Hey, we jes' be playin' 'round!.

I love all that stuff...hey, you forgot the late great Joe Pass!!!


"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
#33696 02/17/02 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
Man, you guys are ruthless. I guess I am the only true jazz fan here. That's what I do and that's what I love. Chick Corea, Jarrett, Miles, Mingus, Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Metheny, Phineas Newborn Jr., Clifford Brown, Wayne Shorter, Zawinul, Lovano, Herbie, Liebman, Towner, Elvin, Dexter, Oscar Peterson, Sco, Mathew Shipp, Braxton, Freddie Hubbard, Bird, Nguyen Le, Bill Evans, Duke, Monk, Brecker, Maria Schneider, Mendoza, Joe Henderson, Holland, Fats, Rollins, McCoy Tyner . . .


I like jazz, but have not bought any new stuff for years.
I like the old stuff, like Miles and Duke and Sonny Rollins, Brubeck. Love Mingus, some Coltrane,Bird always kinda bored me, Clifford brown was amazing,Keitht Jarret is sublime.

I also like alot of electric stuff, sco, elektik band, yellowjackets(Haslip kills me), Steps ahead etc etc

I'm off to check out Stanleys tunes!

#33697 02/17/02 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by halljams:


I also like alot of electric stuff, sco, elektik band, yellowjackets(Haslip kills me), Steps ahead etc etc

I'm off to check out Stanleys tunes!



Hey halljams

Have you heard the new Yellowjackets CD Mint Jam? Great stuff, and Haslip really shreds. Too bad you're not in soCal. The old YJ are reuniting for a concert with Robben Ford, and their first drummer (his name escapes me). Also, next Sunday, Ferrante, Haslip and Vinnie Colauita are playing a benefit concert for a fellow musician who's recently undergone some serious surgery and is now recovering and in need of money...

Check it out here.

My Favorite Jazz Band

Albert


Gear: NS3 HP76, Mojo 61, NS2 73, NS 88 classic, Deepmind 12, C. Bechstein baby grand.
#33698 02/17/02 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
Man, you guys are ruthless. I guess I am the only true jazz fan here.


Bit of a leap, isn't it?

My faves: Tatum, Blakey, Parker, Armstrong, Bix, Clifford (god of the trumpet), Coleman Hawkins, Larry Carlton, Pat Metheny, Weather Report, Phil Woods, Flecktones, and Ellington. I'm also a big fan of swing era music in its original and later (Sinatra, Riddle) incarnations.


The Black Knight always triumphs!
#33699 02/17/02 11:07 PM
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Yeah, this thread really did get sort of hijacked there for awhile...

I'm a jazz fan, since my teens. I first got hooked to it by my next-door-neighbor, a guitar player who turned me on to a lot of stuff. When he pointed me towards John McLaughlin, that started me off -- from there to Miles' electric stuff, then back to Miles in the 50's, and from there to Trane, Weather Report, Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, and wider and wider all the time out to Bird, Pres, Art Tatum, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Christian, Art Blakely, Larry Coryell, Bennie Maupin, Charles Mingus, Dave Holland, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, Carla Bley, Gary Burton, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Bill Evans...

I tended at first to go for the electric fusion-type stuff, coming out of my high school years when it was Cream, the Allman Brothers Band, the Beatles, Led Zeppelin... but then I was all over it. I've always tended to like stuff most from the bebop era on; never was a big-band swing fan, and the older stuff is I guess just a little too distant and dated to really grab me (except for some of Armstrong's classics). And I've always enjoyed good jazz-rock fusion to this day -- Bill Frisell, Mike Stern, John Scofield, Wayne Krantz, Leni Stern, Tribal Tech... never liked the "smooth" stuff and all the faux jazz like Kenny G and Najee (yeeeech)....

#33700 02/18/02 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by tuttorney:



Hey halljams

Have you heard the new Yellowjackets CD Mint Jam? Great stuff, and Haslip really shreds. Too bad you're not in soCal. The old YJ are reuniting for a concert with Robben Ford, and their first drummer (his name escapes me). Also, next Sunday, Ferrante, Haslip and Vinnie Colauita are playing a benefit concert for a fellow musician who's recently undergone some serious surgery and is now recovering and in need of money...

Check it out here.

My Favorite Jazz Band

Albert


Hey can you email me?
jimholland@whtvcable.com

#33701 02/18/02 02:46 AM
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Since we're talking about Jazz..sort of. I have a pet peeve. One of my favorite bands is Spyro Gyra. Maybe because I play sax and keyboards and can relate to the kinds of music they do. What bugs me is they have somewheres around 20 albums out and Tom Schuman, the keyboard player never even gets mentioned in any keyboard poll. I personally think the guy is an excellent player and should at least get mentioned. I keep hearing about Trent Reznor from NIN and just don't get it.

As a horn player I've been listening to jazz since I can first remember. Getz, Paul Desmond, Mulligan..those guys could play. Tom Scott, Michael Brecker, David Sanborn and a ton of others aren't too bad either.


Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
#33702 02/18/02 03:48 AM
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I've always listened to jazz and always aspired to play it. It was part of my household. I like all of it, from the Be-Bop of Bird and Diz, to the sheets of sound of Coltrane, inner and outer space, to the Yellow Jackets and Pat Metheny. Even the old big bands of Duke and Basie to the modern work of Gil Evans, Schneider and Mendoza. I gravitated to the fusion stuff with Mahavishnu as well. It was Hendrix that got me excited about being a guitarist. But as I was listening to "Voodoo Chile" I was also listening to Eric Dolphy, Mingus, Coltrane and Ornette. I've always been that way. I was in the 7th grade when I gave a special report in music class and played "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" by Mingus and "Bitches Brew" by Miles Davis. And I was in the 6th grade when I was checking out "Out To Lunch" by Eric Dolphy. Always I was trying to stretch my ears.

Jazz is just a hard music for the uninitiated to break into. It's unforgiving and demands your attention or you'll be lost.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33703 02/18/02 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com:
As a horn player I've been listening to jazz since I can first remember. Getz, Paul Desmond, Mulligan..those guys could play. Tom Scott, Michael Brecker, David Sanborn and a ton of others aren't too bad either.


Paul Desmond! Oh yeah.

#33704 02/18/02 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GZsound@hotmail.com:
I have a pet peeve. One of my favorite bands is Spyro Gyra...What bugs me is they have somewheres around 20 albums out and Tom Schuman, the keyboard player never even gets mentioned in any keyboard poll. I personally think the guy is an excellent player and should at least get mentioned.


THANK YOU!!! Tom Shuman is one of my favorite keyboardists of any style, and he's also a pretty cool guy. Maybe he's not as high profile because he was in Dave Samuels' shadow for so long, but I agree the guy is a monster. If you need any convincing, just check out his trio version of "Shaker Song" on their "Road Scholars" CD. The man can shred those keys! \:\)

Peace all,
Steve


><>
Steve
#33705 02/18/02 06:57 AM
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My love affair with Jazz started in the summer of 1985 when a neighbor heard me playing my fender Rhodes and came to chat. He turned me onto the Yellowjackets and I was hooked. I've listened to everything from John McLaughlin, Al Di Meola, Wishful Thinking, Patrice Rushen, and Pat Metheney to Steps Ahead, the Rippingtons, Dave Weckl and Chick Correa. I still love the Yellowjackets' work since they are so amazingly resourceful and their sound changes over time but always remains distinct to them. Great musicians these guys are....

Glad to see so many Jazz lovers. I don't consider myself a Jazz player but more of a blues player with some Jazz overtones....

Albert

Hey Sagov

I took a listen to some of your music. It sounded great to me. Interesting Piano work. Keep it up..


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#33706 02/18/02 10:53 AM
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I like music.


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#33707 02/18/02 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
I like music.

I absolutely agree. However there's always a certain type or style in any art or thing that specifically rings one's bell. And especially if you want to play it well you must immerse yourself in it. And because of the depth of the music you can't immerse yourself half way. I play and appreciate all musics and the older I get this becomes more, not less, true. I just bought a Taylor and I've been finger picking bluegrass and country type tunes. ME!! I've always played in the odd rock band, especially original bands But my main identity has been be-bop, standards, avant-garde and fusion type groups. That's just what makes my interest and imagination pique. For me it's not a "better than-worse than" scenario, other than for me personally. *I* prefer it, but I don't expect my appreciation should be global. I do get tired of the bias on forum's like this; like jazz is the distant and ugly step child. But jazz is just not popular and it's fans wouldn't like it any other way.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33708 02/19/02 12:15 AM
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THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT JAZZ

There is some good jazz music and are some good jazz players that make shitty jazz music.

A format that is essentially: play the head, give each player three times to show off their chops, and play the head again really sucks.

While improvisiation might yield unexpected rewards, the self indulgence of jazz musicians to show off their chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values makes most off the music of this genre really disappointing.

Even worse is the needless haughty attitude of jazz musicians.

Joe

#33709 02/19/02 12:41 AM
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Jazz is a great artform, but like any other it's not for everybody.

Also jazz is a very 'big' little word that encompasses quite a bit, and again like other genres you could devote half a lifetime exploring it and barely scatch the surface.

So Joe maybe you just don't dig the style and that's cool since there are enough who do and who find jazz to be very special and fulfilling.

What's your favorite kind of music these days?

#33710 02/19/02 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Egan:
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT JAZZ

There is some good jazz music and are some good jazz players that make shitty jazz music.

A format that is essentially: play the head, give each player three times to show off their chops, and play the head again really sucks.

Snip


Well Joe don't the fact that there is some good jazz music, some bad, don't you thinkthat applies to all music? And the head solos, head format is a little old and tired but the improvisation IS the art of it. It's NOT about chops, although some lesser players make it that because they don't have anything much to say otherwise. If you feel that the musicians are merely being self indulgent and if it's the stuff in-between the melody bores you, you've missed the entire point, art and craft of jazz. And is IS something special, although clearly it's not something special to you, which is alright. But don't try and dismantle the whole art merely because you don't like it or don't GET it. And about the attitudes of jazz musiciansd I've experienced more bad attitudes, or at least as much, from folks like you who are critical and dismissive towards jazz than the other way lately. Why the hostility?


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33711 02/19/02 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
But my main identity has been be-bop, standards, avant-garde and fusion type groups. That's just what makes my interest and imagination pique. For me it's not a "better than-worse than" scenario, other than for me personally. *I* prefer it, but I don't expect my appreciation should be global. I do get tired of the bias on forum's like this; like jazz is the distant and ugly step child. But jazz is just not popular and it's fans wouldn't like it any other way.


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid anymore. It seems a rarity to me to encounter anyone who claims to like just one genre. I'm sick of dealing with being perceived as a rock player by one group, a jazz player by another, and a fusion player from yet another group of people.

"Jazz"? Who is a "jazz" player today? What is "jazz"? It's an old form. It has evolved into many varients; there can't be a "pure" form of it anymore, it can't mean anything because there can no longer be the context that it's a "new form". People here are talking about many IMO disparate, *separate* styles of music that *may* fall under the flag of "jazz"; but it doesn't mean anything as a label anymore - obviously.

I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. There are no purists anymore, except for insanely narcissistic types. Likewise, the sooner we let go of the notion of trapping music into all encompassing - but descriptively vague - labels, the better the music will be.


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#33712 02/19/02 02:39 AM
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Quote:
While improvisiation might yield unexpected rewards, the self indulgence of jazz musicians to show off their chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values makes most off the music of this genre really disappointing.


Oh geez...if you don't know Jazz why would you attempt to define it? Are you bitter about something or someone?

Which jazz musicians in particular have you determined to be "showing off chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values"? I'm not going to say there aren't a number of wannabe players out there who do this but if you're lopping all Jazz soloists together in this analysis, well, perhaps you need to re-examine your qualifications first.

Also, I hope you realize sometimes people make music a certain way just because it's fun to do.

#33713 02/19/02 02:47 AM
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Quote:
I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. There are no purists anymore, except for insanely narcissistic types. Likewise, the sooner we let go of the notion of trapping music into all encompassing - but descriptively vague - labels, the better the music will be.


I agree and I have mostly erased genre 'rules' from my musical vocabulary when I play. However, I do have respect for the history of those who defined and redefined these genres. So anytime I sit down to make music the traditions of old often influence what I play and I feel I'm a better player because of the time spent studying them.

Not trying to make a particular point here...just commenting on the subject.

#33714 02/19/02 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid (snip)I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. (snip) .


Yeah well I'm tired of getting pigeoned holed too, but for myself, I don't see that changing any time soon. Many of the gigs I've been doing lately require tunes like "Cherokee", "Joy Spring" or are just jazz originals. It IS music with a stylistic bent. It's a little hard not to call it jazz or require the other musicians to have a background in it, otherwise it's disaster time on the bandstand. Is it a dance gig? Is there a vocalist? Are we specifically catering to an audience requests or are is the audience there specifically to hear us play our asses off? Am I required to navigate myself through an intense set of chord sequences at the drop of the hat and make great music out of it or am I laying down a fat, funky, chunky, rhythm chank? Do I need to know the dance hits?

Come on, you have to know these things before you make it to the gig. For me it determines what guitar(s) I bring. Music IS style to a great degree. The more you know about style the better you'll be able to succesfully deliver what ever is required of the gig.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33715 02/19/02 07:33 AM
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Wow,I didn't know what I was starting.!.Also such a non sports dweeb..(must be that needlessly haughty Jazz musician thing )..I didn't ever imagine the sports connection..Well maybe we are all so ecumenical that jazz,rock basketball,politics,blegrass and whatever turns you on is all different paths up the same mountain etc..
I love a lot of musics..I happen to play Jazz..I don't mean to knock the other musics I do not play well or at all..
Obviously there is great and not so great music written and played in every genre..I do like the passion from y'all and I still would like critical feedback and a chance to hear some of you other jazz players with music to share...

#33716 02/19/02 07:48 AM
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Stanley,

I was browsing the New England Conservatory of Music website recently and saw that you were listed there as an alumni. I took classes there in 1985-86, I loved that school.

Anyway, I'll post some focused thoughts on your music tomorrow and I'll offer a couple of new recordings for you to check out.

#33717 02/19/02 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
Many of the gigs I've been doing lately require tunes like "Cherokee", "Joy Spring" or are just jazz originals. It IS music with a stylistic bent. It's a little hard not to call it jazz or require the other musicians to have a background in it, otherwise it's disaster time on the bandstand. Is it a dance gig?


Yeah, but still the lines are blurred. There's a place in my town where you might play Cherokee, but you could still get away with doing pretty much whatever you want to sneak in if you're good. The crowd aren't purists, but they'd all call themselves "jazz fans". The irony is what makes what happens there "jazz" imo is when something occurs that *isn't* "jazz" - because the "jazz" guys always play the SAME tunes. They'd be totally aghast at the notion of just calling out 3 chords and blowing, really simple, but that'd be more "jazz" then playing a staid rendition of Green Dolphin Street.. IMO...


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#33718 02/19/02 10:44 AM
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Not to jump to the defense of jazz musicians but in my limited experience (40 years), a good jazz musician can play nearly any style of music with relative ease. That is not the case with good rock musicians, country musicians, folk, etc.

The main reason I listen to jazz is the changes. I get so tired of rock, blues, country etc. with it's limited chord and timing structure within a song. And I play in a rock and roll band. You just don't get key changes and time changes within a song in most other music. And hey, I live with a bluegrass bass player..talk about no changes!!

And to call jazz musicians creeps because they blow extended leads and cop an attitude..listen to Pfish or the Dead..Wannabe jazz cats that just can't quite pull it off.


Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs

"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
#33719 02/19/02 11:39 AM
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this thread is about jazz music again, right?

i like jazz. say what you want about categories, when someone says "i like jazz", we know what they mean.

i've been listening to a lot more "classic jazz" lately. i pulled out some cds i hadn't listened to in awhile, and added some more (haden live, miles' "relaxin'"). i put 1Gb of "the standards" and my favorites in iTunes, i let it random a lot. the more i listen to "moanin'", the more i get the feel. same for modes in "maiden voyage" and "all blues".

jazz is a challenge. it's a challenge to listen to, and it's a challenge to play & compose well. that's why i like it. i can just sit back and listen & enjoy it, but i'll still think "wow, that's cool" and figure out the melody/ chord/ rhythm, and appreciate it

and learn it.

#33720 02/19/02 04:31 PM
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I think I get it! I've done my share of transcribing solos and playing over changes. Initially it was a challenge, but it ain't no rocket science. Quartal harmonies, modal improvisation, chord substitutions, blah blah blah, all interesting, but not ends in themselves; yet listen to most of the output of this genre (especially live) and you'll hear that the acquiring of the technique is the end in itself. So you can play John Coltrane licks, so can I, So What!

Even big names play gigs where their primary musical aim is to show off the depth of their knowledge and technique and not explore emotional, compositional and timbral combinations. Not that there isn't jazz like that, it's just when showing off your skill is the primary musical value, other more important musical values get lost, and I get kind of bored. If a quartet can't arrange a tune that is both interesting, emotionally compelling and allows for improvisations, then they are lazy and failing as musicians from my perspective

I expect to be moved emotionally and intellectually by music, not just amazed; and if the "artist" is just being athletic, maybe watching a basketball game is better distraction.

I never said that jazz musicians were creeps, I've met, jammed with "jazz" musicians that I consider very fine people; but there's enough of the haughty types that if you haven't met them, I might think you stay at home too much. I think you might find a little supercilousness in some of the postings in this thread. Give me a singer with a guitar, who can put over a song and I'll take that any time over a squacking saxaphone, I don't care if he can sing into his reed at the same time.

So I think jazz is great because there is great music from that genre, but there's nothing special about jazz, because there's no lack of greatness in other genres. It's not how well you can play, it's the effect of your playing that's important.

Stanley, I gave a listen to a couple of your tunes. Nice work. I'm impressed that you did that all in MIDI.

Joe

#33721 02/19/02 05:06 PM
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I love a lot of musics..I happen to play Jazz..I don't mean to knock the other musics I do not play well or at all..
Obviously there is great and not so great music written and played in every genre..I do like the passion from y'all and I still would like critical feedback and a chance to hear some of you other jazz players with music to share...
--------------------

[url]http://www.mp3.com/Stanley_ Sagov[/url]


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Stanley,

I am suprised that you weren't dealt with more severly on this thread since others who have similarly promoted there music here have been pounced upon to say the least. The accepted practice on the forum is that you post on the "Is Your Music Any Good Thread? Find Out here." thread if you want folks to check out your music. Otherwise it's considered spam and that aint good. \:\)

Anyway I did take a moment to check out your work this morning since I am a jazz fan although not just a jazz fan.

First of all I was somewhat intrigued that you listed your main influences as Miles Davis, Bill Evans, and George Russell since after listening to your first three tracks I would have thought that Cecil Taylor would more likely be among the leading exponents of the type sound your music resembles. For me this is what we used to call avant guard but in your case electronic and sequenced avant guard to boot. This has always been some very difficult listening for me personally and IMHO boarders on the most extreme perimiters of the jazz world.

I personally feel that jazz in general does not work well with sequenced parts, drums in particular. Since one of the main characteristics of the stlye is for live players to spontaneously bounce of each other so to speak, overdubbing, sequencing and the like tend defeat this most important aspect of the music.

I could hear though you've got some pretty strong piano chops and was wonderings have you recorded any more traditional stuff along the lines of Bill Evans.

#33722 02/19/02 05:10 PM
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Jeez Steve \:\) Defining jazz like defining the underground movement????.......you're starting a brushfire!!!!! \:\)
Especially with all the posters with Doctorates of BSology here!!!! \:\)


Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
#33723 02/19/02 06:38 PM
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Hey um...got a question for all y'all jazz players out there, what do you guys jam to when you practice by yourself, drum machines etc...? How long and how often do you practice?

I usually play along to instrumentals on vinyl or just jam along with drum machines but I get bored pretty quickly with drum machines, they just ain't interactive enough. Then I just ended up doing solo trying to indulge/enjoy myself in the sound for as long as I can, until I had enough.

How do you guys write your music? Since jazz is never about being repeativtive unlike any other type/structure, bit like a butterly flaping up and down with it's own path. Similarly to blues, except blues is more like a moment of blurb in the state of intoxication. Which makes it very hard trying remember or recreate a particular segment, since a lot of it is freestyle and depending on the mood at the time IMHO. \:\)

Often I record myself while I practice, I find it really helpful in picking out the SLOPPY part and also encourage me to do develop the parts that I like. What are your thoughts, any tips?

#33724 02/19/02 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Learner:
Hey um...got a question for all y'all jazz players out there, what do you guys jam to when you practice by yourself, drum machines etc...? How long and how often do you practice?


I don't jam with recorded material when I practice. I normally start with a battery of exercises, scales, arpeggios for warm ups and gettng my viewpoint focused on the neck and harmonic locations. I'll then improvise over some "standard" tunes. Lately it's been "Along Came Betty", "Giant Steps" (always), "I Thought About You", "Yours Is My Heart Alone, "It Could Happen To You", "Ill Wind", etc.. Or I'll concentrate on Coltrane substitutions or Trane type substitutions. OR I'll set up a modal groove and go off. All this goes out the window if I start writing a tune.

I love playing standards because they can be a challenge. It gives me a frame to create melodic motives and to follow the logic of a melodic/harmonic line. I find when I can do this well I can do the other things well as well. Being able to logically and aesthetically create and set up melodies; take them through variations, call and response, substitutions, side step, modulations, I find it helps me play funk, blues rock and roll too.

Now it doesn't necessarily follow that 'if you can play jazz you can play anything'. TECHNICALLY you can but not stylistically. I've met all kind of snobbish jazz guys who assumed they could do it because rock was so "simple", but try and get them to do it. It's style and that takes a while to digest. But it doesn't take as long as it would the other way around.

Back to practice: what I do is learn the chord progressions and improvise without aid of recording the changes, so I have to outline the chords with my single line improv so I can hear the changes in my head. Outlining the thirds and the general chord is always good for this, rather than playing through the tune modally. I find the tempo of the tune and set up a metronome most of the time. A lot of jazz guys buy these Jamey Abersol CDs that are music minus one type things. I've never used anything like that.

I spend about 1-2 hours doing my exercises and another hour or two improvising or learning another tune. I used to do this everyday. I've been practicing heavy for about 25 years. It's difficult for me to keep this up with children and studio work. So I get about 3 hours a day in about 3-4 times a week nowadays.

One of the things that separate musicians and their abilities is their practice routines and their dedication. Obviously what they bring to the table innately cannot be over/under estimated. But how they continue to grow and what music fuels them is crucial, I think, to how they end up playing.

I think writing music is like anything else. It may be a melody that inspires me. Sometimes it's a thing or event. It might be a chord sequence or a groove. The trick is to see it through; get an overall vision and be able to change your point of view. That's why I generally hate making a midi file or recording the basic idea before I've written it. Once it's down, even in a basic crude form, it's harder for me to change it. I get stuck with THAT viewpoint of the piece. I've gone back to pencil and paper or my software notation prgm.

Normally it's something unusual that catches my attention. If I come up with something that sounds too much like "X" I won't take the time to write it. That's why I've written hardly any blues tunes. I love to play them, but I'm not inspired to write another I-IV-V variation.

All this stuff is personal and there is no right/wrong way to do it. The only wrong way is the way that doesn't get it done.

My two cents.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33725 02/19/02 09:57 PM
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There was a time when jazz was "the Devil's music" and soundly condemned in favor of "serious" (classical and religious) music. It is a uniquely American invention... (damn uppity 'mericans), and its popular decline was sadly inevitable.

There was a time where jazz was THE music of the masses. Your parents, (or your grandparents) were certainly into the big band era. I enjoy much of the current post-bebop jazz, even some of the excesses of the "fusion" era and even some of the smooth jazz variety, but Big Band is my favorite jazz to have fun and to "dance" to. I thought the recent "swing" revival was kinda fun because it features those big sassy horn sections. PHAT! SAMPLE THAT, BABY!

guitplayer


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Check out my music if you like...

http://www.michaelsaulnier.com
#33726 02/20/02 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by strat0124:
Jeez Steve \:\) Defining jazz like defining the underground movement????.......you're starting a brushfire!!!!! \:\)
Especially with all the posters with Doctorates of BSology here!!!! \:\)


hehe, yeah, could you tell I was a bit offended for no real apparent reason? \:\)

A very common theme amongst Pop/Rock players is this idea that anyone who plays a lot of notes is showing off. I won't argue that these kind of players don't exist, however, Jazz musicians who play just to show off wouldn't last more than a few minutes in most of the Jazz clubs I've played at.

It's no secret to anyone who's spent a few minutes listening to my music that I often play a lot of notes...so yeah, I take comments like Joe's personally despite my Titanium Ego. \:D

But whatever...not really trying to stir flames...sometimes I need to get shit off my chest...sorry 'bout that. \:D

#33727 02/20/02 12:34 AM
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Steve you're a cool _____ ______ in my opinion, and always a thoughtful and considerate poster. (dusting my knees off) \:\)


Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
#33728 02/20/02 12:34 AM
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i am particularly fond of shirley horn. i like george shearing at times. most of my listening these days is slow piano jazz and lounge music, but i also like people like joni mitchell and steely dan who play jazz in a context where most people listening dont even know its jazz. i am currently listening to "3s A Crowd" - a cd of piano jazz i bought from mp3.com.


jnorman
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#33729 02/20/02 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by guitplayer:
There was a time when jazz was "the Devil's music" and soundly condemned in favor of "serious" (classical and religious) music. It is a uniquely American invention... (damn uppity 'mericans), and its popular decline was sadly inevitable....

guitplayer


Yeah...it's amazing to me how current Rockers don't give props to the BeBop cats...I mean way before there was Heavy Metal/Prog. Rock...Bebop was the place to be for 'degenerates'. Smoky clubs, Sex, Drugs, Loud Music...BEBOP! Not necessarily players showing off (though it was competitive and you had to earn a right to be there)...but a bunch of really creative players "Rockin Out", taking it to the next level.

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Quote:
Originally posted by sagov@bellatlantic.net:
I haven't posted for a while ,I have a bunch of new rough,avant-Bop,fusion,bloozy and NOT SMOOTH Jazz pieces for your critical attention. and would also love to see more jazz music from others to listen to on this great forum
mp3.com/Stanley_Sagov



I listened to the first three tunes. Very cool stuff...it sucks that you have to rely on such lame keyboard sounds but the ideas are all really cool. Some of your leads feel a bit rushed to me, maybe it's a stylistic thing but with the drums not always holding a steady groove the leads have to be that much more groovy IMO.

The Drum programming is NUTS...very well done, the attention to detail is excellent, very impressive.

I'd really like to hear you play some real piano...do you have any recordings of yourself playing a Grand?

Thanks for sharing your tunes...I like the new ones a lot.

I have a few new ones that aren't quite finished yet...I'll post them on the big thread later this week, I'd love any comments you might have to offer.

#33731 02/20/02 02:49 PM
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Hey all
I only had time to read page two here, so I hope I don`t say anything repetitive-
My folks turned me on to jazz-at least that of a certain era-back in junior high. I remember seeing this record on the stereo and thinking, `who on earth is Cannonball Adderly?`
When I was in grade school in Chicago, we lived right around the corner from Ahmad Jamal. One of my dad`s partners back in the day was Johnny Hartman.
I have a mixed feeling about some of the jazz neo-conservatives, like Wynton Marsalis in particular. On the one hand, I do think it`s a good thing to encourage music education in the schools, and counter this post-punk thing of, the heck with tuning-that`s for snobs. But his attitude of, if it doesn`t swing it`s not jazz-gets on my nerves big time. If he prefers jazz played within certain restrictions, that`s fine. But to say anything else isn`t jazz is presumptuous IMO, no matter how good he is.

#33732 02/21/02 02:13 AM
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I agree with you. Wynton is a whole'nuther subject. But there are folks who have very strict parameters of what they like and what they feel is acceptable/unacceptable, be it jazz, rock'n roll, hip hop, movies, literature, what have you.

I spent some time playing and teaching in Europe. Jazz is alive and kicking and taken much more seriously. So much so that I think, in the not too distant future, the direction will be set by some of those incredible musicians over there. For the first time the real innovations in this, one of America's only true art forms, will be led from shores not our own. And many of those setting the pace and direction aren't doing it in a way that is traditionally thought of as swinging. They are breathing new life into the music.

There's a guitar player, Vietnamese-French, whose name is Nguyen Le who is an example. A great writer and improvisor.

I think for any music to survive it has to stop limiting itself and apply less stringent definitions and be more accepting of various styles. And jazz has done this, to the extent that it's hard to tell what is jazz nowadays. But there are always those very conservative diehards. What I will say about Mynton is that he has forced us not to look away at the brilliant music created by Duke Ellington and others. Jazz suffered from the intensity of feeling that every new serious musician had to provide the next big innovative step. From Bird and Dizzy to Monk, Mingus to Coltrane to Ornette to Dolphy, Cecil Taylor, on and on. Wynton said "Wait a minute! We haven't even harvested the fields of THIS great music. Who said we have to outdo ourselves every generation?" And I have to agree with his point. Although I like the avant-garde much more than he apparently does.

Nuff said for now. I have to go pick up my kids.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33733 02/21/02 02:31 AM
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What I will say about Wynton is that he has forced us not to look away at the brilliant music created by Duke Ellington and others.


Yeah...I don't follow Wynton much but last I did he was spouting stuff that seemed to belittle what Duke did...he's into way older stuff than Duke isn't he?

Anyway...I think Wynton has relegated himself to Pompous Historian...from my POV he never had what it took to be an innovator musically. I never liked the way he played, especially in his early career when he tried to play bebop...it was kinda embarrassing because his brother was so good at it.

Also, I watched a lot of the Ken Burns jazz series on PBS and was highly put off by Wynton's take on things. He was attempting to talk from a position of authority on music that to me it seemed obvious he didn't get. Miles Davis used Wynton as the perfect example of someone who doesn't get jazz (or at least Miles' definition(s) of jazz \:\) ).

OK, I just spouted a bunch of opinion...true or not I know what I like to hear from Jazz music. All variations are legit and cool...just watch out if you feel the need to criticize mine (or mischaracterize it as ego stretching \:\) )

\:D

#33734 02/21/02 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid anymore. It seems a rarity to me to encounter anyone who claims to like just one genre. I'm sick of dealing with being perceived as a rock player by one group, a jazz player by another, and a fusion player from yet another group of people.



Amen Chip! Banish the Genres! Tear down the walls! Damn the torpedos and hand me that ABBA LP! Ok, maybe that's going a bit too far.


I really don't know what to put here.
#33735 02/21/02 06:03 AM
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Quote

I listened to the first three tunes. Very cool stuff...it sucks that you have to rely on such lame keyboard sounds but the ideas are all really cool. Some of your leads feel a bit rushed to me, maybe it's a stylistic thing but with the drums not always holding a steady groove the leads have to be that much more groovy IMO.

The Drum programming is NUTS...very well done, the attention to detail is excellent, very impressive.

I'd really like to hear you play some real piano...do you have any recordings of yourself playing a Grand?

Thanks for sharing your tunes...I like the new ones a lot.

I have a few new ones that aren't quite finished yet...I'll post them on the big thread later this week, I'd love any comments you might have to offer.

Thanks for your attention and appreciation..I am often torn between my 1st instinct to play more metronomic quantised drum parts or more like every one is soloing together to make a more supple flexible groove...
I look forward to hearing your new pieces...

Also in response to LRoss

I do love Bill Evans and have recorded much acoustic piano in his style..actually had the privilege of playing opposite him in NY at the Village Gate in the 70's and visiting him at his apt and vice versa..He was and is one of my major inspirations...

#33736 02/21/02 09:05 AM
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The thing is, 100 years from now, THERE WON'T BE THESE DELIENATIONS. What seperates genres now are time periods; each style had it's little run of popularity. That's what defines it generationally, and that's increasingly less important as time passes between the genre and "now".


When I was younger I sought out oddball jazz tunes. Thought Giant Steps was fun because of the tempo of the changes, realized there was a trick to it, realized there was *ALSO* the simultaneous deepness to it as well, then realized that "it's been done". There's "Giant Steps". It doesn't need to be done again. As music goes it doesn't do anything for me. It's fun to play, amusing intellectually - but it doesn't say anything to me other than "John Coltrane sweating to push things forward" - which it did, but outside of that... what does it mean? On the other hand, some of his other stuff I think is completely transcendent, and a lot of it is *simple* - Naima (well, it's slow), Equinox, Impressions, Mr. P.C...

I've got a mix cd that has the following on it:

Jeff Beck's "Cause We've Ended as Lovers"
Pink Floyd/Gilmour's "Marooned"
Holdsworth's "Home"
Vangelis' "Memories of Green"

... and Coltrane's "Naima". Fits perfectly IMO. Music is music, not genres.


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#33737 02/21/02 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
The thing is, 100 years from now, THERE WON'T BE THESE DELIENATIONS. What seperates genres now are time periods; each style had it's little run of popularity. That's what defines it generationally, and that's increasingly less important as time passes between the genre and "now".



Yes and no. Sme of the be-bop innovations of the 40s still holds up. The technology of the recordings doesn't. But people are still playing the recordings and musicians are still playing the compositions and studying the transcriptions.

Now as we talk about generalizations we can truly only talk about what we ourselves have experienced. Your experience does not reflect mine. Yours is more universal, I have no doubt. BTW the only real way to play Giant Steps is not with the "trick". Sure there are three key changes, but if you listen to Trane play it and anyone else who really has it down, each chord is played, not just the key centers, off axis. So for me this is a geat exercise; kind of an etude.

So yes, what separates music generationally are "time periods" which is an obvious truth, I think. But it is more specifically style. I can listen to music of certain periods and "get" the cars that were being driven or the clothes styles. It's all a part of the music. But there is so much more there.

I think we've kind of been on a downward spiral in terms of musical sophistication. Around the turn of the LAST century pop music was distributed in sheet music. You'd go to a drug store or music store and pick out sheet music. There might be a piano there where you could try it out or have the salesman play it for you. People entertained each other by READING music. And much of that music was quite sophisticated. Today not only are we losing basic understandings of harmony but we're losing an understanding of song forms. I don't know how many tunes I hear that have virtually no bridge or sub-chorus. OK, you can say we're "growing and innovating". I think we're contracting to a lowest common demoninator.

Musically what Coltrane was doing in 1958 has, arguably, not been surpassed in terms of musical audacity or sheer technique. The manner in which he stacked chords on top of one another, beyond the fact that he did it in the first place. He made some primary discoveries that are still being applied and rediscovered today.

Whether people will still be listening to this music in 100 years is arguable and moot. People are still listening to Coltrane in 1958, Miles in 1960, Duke in 1935, Mingus in 1963, Bird in 1948. Well perhaps not you, but I know a lot of people who still do. What's more I play a lot of this music and get paid to perform it in concert venues.

Calling all music the same is showing a dis-service to the differences in those musics. Reggae is not Hip Hop, is not Blues, is not country is not bluegrass is not swing is not bebop is not rock is not funk. And the categories within are likewise unique. Holdsworth is not Vai is not Rhodes, is not Hendrix is not Gilbert is not Clapton is Van Halen is not . . . . And knowing the differences does not DIS the wonderful contributions of those individuals.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33738 02/21/02 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Stanley wrote:
I do love Bill Evans and have recorded much acoustic piano in his style..


Any of these recordings on the web?

#33739 02/21/02 02:36 PM
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"John Coltrane licks, so can I, So What!"

........Uh......huh!

.....not to be mean.............

.....Nobody can or ever will be able to play like Trane.

John Coltrane is to Tenor Saxophone What Jimi is to Guitar

Jazz is American Classical music........Period!


Cheers,

La Vida Musica
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I was sent a link to this page and it seemed to fit into the forum as an historic perspective. Who says there's no class in the sticks?

Hoosier Hot Shots Listening Room

Maybe some of the "senior" members of this forum will get a kick out of this stuff. I did !

Anybody want to talk about advances in recording technology?


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Unknown Voice: "The Shadow do!"
#33741 02/21/02 03:54 PM
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To Iross
check out several versions of" hope for peace pieces"..they are pretty much in that Bill Evans style..also maybe jazz piano nocturne..all on that mp3.com/Stanley_Sagov
web page..Also liked your ist reggae piece..and have one I did with my sister in London on the web page called Margo's ragga mix or MARG,Marco,roots rock reggae..will listen to more of your music soon....

#33742 02/21/02 10:55 PM
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Huge Jazz fan here. Everything from Bop to Fusion. Miles, Trane, Rollins, Mingus, Dolphy, Monk, McLaughlin, Coryell, Ernie Ranglin, Monty Alexander, Pastorius, Corea, Clarke... I could go on for days. Me and a buddy of mine have been improvising together for years. (Guitar & Bass) Have some stuff on mp3.com if anybody's interested...

http://www.mp3.com/TheSolarChurch

#33743 02/21/02 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
I've got a mix cd that has the following on it:

Jeff Beck's "Cause We've Ended as Lovers"
Pink Floyd/Gilmour's "Marooned"
Holdsworth's "Home"
Vangelis' "Memories of Green"

... and Coltrane's "Naima". Fits perfectly IMO. Music is music, not genres.
That sounds like a cool mix CD. I remember when FM radio stations took chances and this could have been a set list on some of the more progressive stations.

Ah well... You must appreciate the genre and the talent(s) within the genres. That Vai is not Holdsworth is not Van Halen is not Stevie Ray Vaughn is not Hendrix comment kinda says it all IMHO.

RobT


RobT

Famous Musical Quotes: "I would rather play Chiquita Banana and have my swimming pool than play Bach and starve" - Xavier Cugat
#33744 02/21/02 11:16 PM
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Stanley,

I just checked out the "Hope for Peace Pieces" and also "What Is This Thing Called Bebop". This is more along my taste in jazz. I love Bill Evans, Bud Powell, Oscar Peterson, and people like that. Monk is probably as far 'outside' as I want to go. I know I'm old fashioned but I just can't help it, although Benny Green is a great young player I'm into these days.

Anyway I still have a problem with the programmed drums. Have dealt with sequencing so I know how much work you must have put into it but for me it's just not the thing for jazz. Ever now and then I hear a very slight groove but nowhere near the real thing. I'm very spoiled when it comes to drummers. Even with a live drummer if he's not right on it kills the whole thing for me. Hard to relax and play my horn when the drummer is even a slight bit off. The bass might be missing a bit or even the piano but if the drummer is swinging I can still make it. :0) That's just me. Got to go now but will get back to your stuff soon.

#33745 02/21/02 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by junior4242:
Huge Jazz fan here. Everything from Bop to Fusion. Miles, Trane, Rollins, Mingus, Dolphy, Monk, McLaughlin, Coryell, Ernie Ranglin, Monty Alexander, Pastorius, Corea, Clarke... I could go on for days. Me and a buddy of mine have been improvising together for years. (Guitar & Bass) Have some stuff on mp3.com if anybody's interested...

http://www.mp3.com/TheSolarChurch
I listened to the first tune on your page...the bass and guitar are nice. I enjoyed it...my only criticism is that you seem to rush at times, but I really can't complain because I have the same problem sometimes. \:\)

Nice choice of notes on the bass solos.

#33746 02/22/02 12:01 AM
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Hi Henry,
Can't find your e-mail in your profile, I am very interested in buying some of your work(CDs) can you e-mail me? My e-mail is in my profile, thanks! \:\)

#33747 02/22/02 04:37 AM
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
riginally posted by junior4242:
Huge Jazz fan here. Everything from Bop to Fusion. Miles, Trane, Rollins, Mingus, Dolphy, Monk, McLaughlin, Coryell, Ernie Ranglin, Monty Alexander, Pastorius, Corea, Clarke... I could go on for days. Me and a buddy of mine have been improvising together for years. (Guitar & Bass) Have some stuff on mp3.com if anybody's interested...
http://www.mp3.com/TheSolarChurch
-----------------------

Am enjoying your music... particularly urban legend,and still groovin.. it is sincere and has a lovely feel,,, thanks for loving Jazz and putting your music out for us...

#33748 02/22/02 04:59 AM
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Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to mix the tunes I wanted to post here until next week.

These aren't really Jazz though they're more Jazz than Rock, the jamfree stuff is all completely improvised with no pre-conceived ideas:

"Sample from Tommy's B-Day Jam"
"Rhodes and Drums Duet"

http://www.artistlaunch.com/jamfree

Or some other Jazzy stuff:

"Notes" (jazz fusion)
"Beauty" (mostly sequenced...drums are real, I was 16)

http://www.artistlaunch.com/sleblanc

Or you could just ignore this spam of my music:)

#33749 02/22/02 05:06 AM
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QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [/I] [I]Anyway I still have a problem with the programed drums. Have dealt with sequencing so I know how much work you must have put into it but for me it's just not the thing
mp3.com/Stanley_Sagov

So here is one done with "real bass and drums.. maybe a bit too "out" for your taste but see what you think.
Thanks for the honest response...

The secrets of Swing_copy" General Jazz
Lo Fi Play (dial-up)
Hi Fi Play (broadband)
Download (2.7 MB)
WinRip Enhanced
Download - What's This?
Add to My.MP3
Email Track to a Friend
1-Click Sync™ to all my PCs

another collaboration with John VoiGt & Lawrence Cook (bass and drums) with Stanley Sagov playing keyboard ..actually a WD Coakley Fazioli Piano Sample...A wild and crazy "Virtuosic" jazz rhythms demo!!!i

MP3.com CD Blues Fragmento - Buy it!

Credits SAGOV,VOIGT,COOK

Story Behind the Song
Another interaction through Jon's innovative free play-along free Jazz CD..his e mail is lohnvoigt@medione.net

More Free Music by this Artist
[

#33750 02/22/02 05:22 AM
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Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to mix the tunes I wanted to post here until next week.
These aren't really Jazz though they're more Jazz than Rock, the jamfree stuff is all completely improvised with no pre-conceived ideas:

I have enjoyed some of these before

some spam is good for us \:D
looking forward to next week's mixes

#33751 02/22/02 05:31 AM
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Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
#33752 02/22/02 06:04 AM
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What I'm sayng is that it's moot. Sorry if I mis-represented what you said. I pulled what you said and Steve into one. I didn't mean to. But the "up yers" comment I don't have the time for and I think is uncalled for. I try to respect people. I'm not calling in to question your ability to apply or descern differences and if you read that I'm sorry. What I'm saying is that "music is music" is obvious. I agree with this. What does that observation leave me with? In a practical sense I have to know how to play these various musics. Because learning harmony, scales, modes, arpeggios and reading don't teach me that. If I'm playing reggae I have to know that generally the backbeat is on three and 9 times out of 10 the guitar plays this. If I'm playing polka music the guitar plays this. Music is music but there's a world of difference between Chopin, Webern, Buck Owens, Leadbelly, Louis Armstrong, Janet Jackson, George Gershwin or Snoop Dog. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I have my preferences. Music is Music and I love all music too. There are some musics that strike me more profoundly and require a lot more work, attention and devotion to detail. I'm talking me, no one else.

Listen I understand your point only too well. I was 5 years tied to a record label who could only view the category they WANTED me to fill. I didn't fill it and I refused because I was defining my own category.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33753 02/22/02 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sagov@bellatlantic.net:
Am enjoying your music... particularly urban legend,and still groovin.. it is sincere and has a lovely feel,,, thanks for loving Jazz and putting your music out for us...
Thankyou very much! There's much more where that came from!

http://www.mp3.com/TheSolarChurch

#33754 02/22/02 06:16 AM
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Quote:
So here is one done with "real bass and drums.. maybe a bit too "out" for your taste but see what you think.
Thanks for the honest response...

Sorry for all the typo's on my last post but I was rushing.

You are right this one bends my ear a bit too but it's still a WHOLE lot better with the real players. If the drummer had locked up a little bit more with the bass man who was holding down the groove nicely I might could have given you three and half stars on this one. Personally I'd like to hear an Elvin Jones type drum sound on this one although Lawrence sounds a zillion times better than any drum machine. Maybe if he were up a bit more in the mix it would feel a little better to me.
You sound good on the keys although I would have enjoyed a few more melodic hard bebop type lines sprinkled in there with the atonal offerings but again I like what you are doing much better with the trio.

By the way do you know Bill Evan's son Evan Evans. He's an extremely gifted film composer and has a site on mp3.com also.

http://www.mp3.com/evanevans

JAZZ LIVES

#33755 02/22/02 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:
[QUOTE]
Yeah...I don't follow Wynton much but last I did he was spouting stuff that seemed to belittle what Duke did...he's into way older stuff than Duke isn't he?

Anyway...I think Wynton has relegated himself to Pompous Historian...from my POV he never had what it took to be an innovator musically. I never liked the way he played, especially in his early career when he tried to play bebop...it was kinda embarrassing because his brother was so good at it.

Also, I watched a lot of the Ken Burns jazz series on PBS and was highly put off by Wynton's take on things. He was attempting to talk from a position of authority on music that to me it seemed obvious he didn't get. Miles Davis used Wynton as the perfect example of someone who doesn't get jazz (or at least Miles' definition(s) of jazz \:\) ).
\:D
Steve
Just to come back to this for a second because it`s a significant correction:
Wynton M. hosted a series on National Public Radio called, (I think), This Is Jazz. I listened to almost every installment,
and wynton spent virtually the entire series making the point that what Duke did was cool and what Miles did was not. The two are both great artrists who have made significant contributions to the music. But Wynton seemed to have this notion that all the attention that Miles got for his innovations from the younger set was somehow `stolen` from Duke, and he was on a mission to set things right. He practically said so in so many words. What a selfish appropriation of an otherwise informative and interesting series.

#33756 02/22/02 05:14 PM
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That's right, as I read it. Wynton's main man is Duke. He has done a series of wonderful Septet recordings where the writing is very Duke-ish. New Orleans-Duke, much of it sans piano. And his incredible "Blood On The Fields". I had to give it to him there.

The thing I like about Wynton, and it's taken me a long while, is his researching into history. He's anti-innovation, which is a bit refreshing actually. But with it has come a tired neo-conservative movement that is killing us. What I don't like about him is his arrogance and disrespect he pays to more recent masters. It's as if he's the reincarnation of Sidney Bechet and is gonna put all these young whipper snappers like Miles Davis, especially and Ornette, in their place.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33757 02/22/02 05:23 PM
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Quote:
wynton spent virtually the entire series making the point that what Duke did was cool and what Miles did was not.
I heard something through the grapevine a while back that might account for Wynton's apparent additude.
Miles's band was playing somewhere and Wynton walked on the stage supposedly unannouced and univited. The crowd went off when they saw Wynton but Miles then cut the band off and walked off. ouch!!!

I suspect Wynton will mellow out as he matures seeing that it's almost natural for a young player with so many great accomplishment under his belt to be highly opinionated. It's as if the pressure of such success tends to make one feel that the world almosts expects you to be an authority on everything in your field and you feel obligated to obligue. Personally I think he is a great player and very knowledgeble about the history even though he's a bit of a 'motor mouth' and certainly not the last word about anything. It's not easy being a star from such a young age especially in jazz.

#33758 02/22/02 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
The thing is, 100 years from now, THERE WON'T BE THESE DELIENATIONS.
Yeah, hopefully it won't be like the movie where the pop songs were old commercial dittys.......


Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
#33759 02/22/02 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lrossmusic:
[QUOTE] I suspect Wynton will mellow out as he matures seeing that it's almost natural for a young player with so many great accomplishment under his belt to be highly opinionated.
Wynton's not the youngster he was. He barnstormed on the scene back in 1982 and that was just his debut recording. He was big stuff before that with Art Blakey. Come on, that's 20 years. If he ain't matured yet he ain't gonna.

The first anti-Wynton sentiment, as far as I'm concerned, came in a 1983 interview with Wynton and Herbie Hancock in Musician Magazine. In it, this upstart kid, Marsalis disses both Miles AND Herbie, to his face in an international publication. He says that Herbie is playing BS and so was Miles when they turned their back on acoustic jazz. Ever since he and Miles had a tempestuous relatiobnship. This explains, in at least a public way I might be privy to, Miles' walking off stage.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33760 02/23/02 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Come on, that's 20 years. If he ain't matured yet he ain't gonna
You got a point there. I guess only time will tell. How old is he now anyway? I don't think he's getting his AARP issue of "Modern Maturity" quite yet.

#33761 02/23/02 06:08 AM
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Thanks for the correction...I did qualify my BS a little by stating that I really don't follow Wynton and don't know much of what he believes. I specifically found comments he made (on the Ken Burns Jazz series) about the BeBop era very insulting to people I see as the great innovators of the last century. That alone was enough for me to see a possible hidden agenda in what he has to say.

The story about Miles and Wynton is true...if memory serves it happened at Newport Jazz festival (I could be foggy here:))...Wynton walked on stage uninvited to start jamming with Miles...Miles stopped the band, turned to Wynton and said "Get off the stage boy".

Miles also criticized Wynton's playing on more than one occasion, slamming him pretty hard in his AutoBiography (a must read for any Bop fan IMO).

Wynton slammed his brother in the press several times for playing with Sting...totally uncalled for, I heard rumors that they didn't talk for years because of that.

None of this matters of course...Jazz is a broad term...lots of different stuff can be called Jazz.

#33762 02/23/02 08:35 AM
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Who cares what Wynton SAYS? He's jazz's Yngwie; it doesn't matter, do you like what he plays?

I think he ripped with Blakey. The gloves were off then; he was going for it, trying things, not afraid to play fast and ripping because it's not "tasteful" or whatever.

THEN, he started a solo career and got wacked out.

I saw him around... '93 in a medium-sized club. Great show (hometown trombonist Wycliffe wasn't with him then, though...)...

... BUT, what made it great was the encore. When he finished his set, all of the crowd politely shuffled out and got in their Cadillacs and Mercedes and went "where ever".

Myself and some friends stuck around - about 15 of us. Wynton comes back out and just SHREDDED, just totally went for it, all sorts of wild glissandos, crazy phrases, crazy timbres, careening fast run runs... He actually *sweated*. It was GREAT! It was the *real deal*; it really set me off, was a really inspiring thing because I knew he was capable of it from the Blakey era but it seemed like he had put that aside for more "mature" pastures. He played almost another entire hour for us, the whole band went off, really stretched out - *they got dangerous*. REAL JAZZ! Man, it was great, great band.

He hadn't; he *hid* it. I don't blame him, he was getting buried like Yngwie was in the press for having a rambunctious attitude. It's a shame, though - it's exactly the *real* attitude he should have. I wish he'd ditch the neo-retro religion crap, though. On the other hand, one could surmise he's holding it in check for the "true believers"; I found it curious he chose to come back out and play for such a small crowd, but it was pretty obvious we were all musicians (the uniform: long hair and black t-shirts) and intently listening. Maybe he doesn't get that as often as one would think? Oh well....

Haven't bought one of his recordings since his second Marsalis Standard Time cd. If he'd made a record of that level of hard core playing I'd buy it.

Hmm. Hard core jazz. Yeah.


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

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#33763 02/23/02 05:13 PM
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Good points about Wynton. I can respect that he can hold that much in check. Almost everyone I know who has that level of chops can't hold back that much. I've seen in about three times in similar, small club, no amplification except the bass, clubs. It was wonderfully intimate and I enjoyed it. But he's no Freddie Hubbard, before Freddie got wacked out. And I feel about him similarly. He doesn't BURN. It his style and it's unfair trying to make a person fit some other predetermined mold, BUT if he's is being promoted as the Messiah he's gonna have to take his lumps, dude. His shoes just ain't that big.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33764 02/24/02 01:49 AM
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I'll let Sir Duke (Duke Ellington) speak for me;

"There are only two kinds of music; good and bad."

"If it sounds good, it is good."

I think he was on to something! ;\)

Peace all,
Steve


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#33765 02/24/02 02:19 AM
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Amen Steve!

#33766 02/24/02 07:46 AM
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IMO, if you`re going to position yourself as a music educator as well as a musician, it DOES matter what you say. There are lots of great players who don`t have a lot to say, and I appreciate them greatly for their gifts, I don`t need to listen to them talk. But Mr. M. goes to schools, leads seminars, participates in a lot of projects that people pay attention to. Whatever personal crap he has with one fellow player or another has NO place in those endeavors. Leave the public slams to the hip-hoppers, I say.

#33767 02/24/02 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
And I feel about him similarly. He doesn't BURN. It his style and it's unfair trying to make a person fit some other predetermined mold,
But he *can* if he wanted to. I don't think he's being true to himself. The real Wynton is the young guy trying to cut your head with Art Blakey. He's obviously figured out how to bend with the wind and come across "cultured" now, but it's ridiculous (again) that he should have to consider such things. I'm sure he now would NEVER do a cd of just raging, burning bop tunes - but he could, and it would be great. Instead - lip service to the ghosts; ghosts who I'm sure would kick his butt for being so stagnant if they were still around. I mean - how many tunes has Wynton penned now? I want to hear an all-Wynton composition hard-core sounding cd. Can he do it? Does he *care*? I would think at this point in his career he would be concerned about delving into the writing side of things - not the long drawn out pseudo-theatre things, but simple straight up "tunes". Oh well.


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/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
#33768 02/24/02 10:10 AM
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Quote:
IMO, if you`re going to position yourself as a music educator as well as a musician, it DOES matter what you say. There are lots of great players who don`t have a lot to say, and I appreciate them greatly for their gifts, I don`t need to listen to them talk. But Mr. M. goes to schools, leads seminars, participates in a lot of projects that people pay attention to. Whatever personal crap he has with one fellow player or another has NO place in those endeavors. Leave the public slams to the hip-hoppers, I say.
Yes !!!

Personally I feel a lot of Wynton's situation stems from be so successful so young. Early stardom seems to bring along various problems for many of the exceptionally gifted.

Also when it comes to Wynton, what makes him special to me is not so much his solo chops in jazz but his classical togetherness. When I first noticed him he was on the Grammies playing the hell out of a Hyden's Concerto I believe.

For jazz I prefer my hometown buddy Wallace Roney. But also there's Terence Blanchard, Nickolas Payton and a host of other young trumpet lions among whom Wynton is just one of the pack. Now if you want to go back a few years none of the young cats are that exceptional when I pull out my tapes of say Clifford Brown, Clark Terry, Freddie Hubbard, Dizzy, Louie, Miles ............... \:\)

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