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#33708 02/19/02 12:15 AM
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THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT JAZZ

There is some good jazz music and are some good jazz players that make shitty jazz music.

A format that is essentially: play the head, give each player three times to show off their chops, and play the head again really sucks.

While improvisiation might yield unexpected rewards, the self indulgence of jazz musicians to show off their chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values makes most off the music of this genre really disappointing.

Even worse is the needless haughty attitude of jazz musicians.

Joe

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#33709 02/19/02 12:41 AM
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Jazz is a great artform, but like any other it's not for everybody.

Also jazz is a very 'big' little word that encompasses quite a bit, and again like other genres you could devote half a lifetime exploring it and barely scatch the surface.

So Joe maybe you just don't dig the style and that's cool since there are enough who do and who find jazz to be very special and fulfilling.

What's your favorite kind of music these days?

#33710 02/19/02 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Egan:
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT JAZZ

There is some good jazz music and are some good jazz players that make shitty jazz music.

A format that is essentially: play the head, give each player three times to show off their chops, and play the head again really sucks.

Snip


Well Joe don't the fact that there is some good jazz music, some bad, don't you thinkthat applies to all music? And the head solos, head format is a little old and tired but the improvisation IS the art of it. It's NOT about chops, although some lesser players make it that because they don't have anything much to say otherwise. If you feel that the musicians are merely being self indulgent and if it's the stuff in-between the melody bores you, you've missed the entire point, art and craft of jazz. And is IS something special, although clearly it's not something special to you, which is alright. But don't try and dismantle the whole art merely because you don't like it or don't GET it. And about the attitudes of jazz musiciansd I've experienced more bad attitudes, or at least as much, from folks like you who are critical and dismissive towards jazz than the other way lately. Why the hostility?


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33711 02/19/02 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
But my main identity has been be-bop, standards, avant-garde and fusion type groups. That's just what makes my interest and imagination pique. For me it's not a "better than-worse than" scenario, other than for me personally. *I* prefer it, but I don't expect my appreciation should be global. I do get tired of the bias on forum's like this; like jazz is the distant and ugly step child. But jazz is just not popular and it's fans wouldn't like it any other way.


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid anymore. It seems a rarity to me to encounter anyone who claims to like just one genre. I'm sick of dealing with being perceived as a rock player by one group, a jazz player by another, and a fusion player from yet another group of people.

"Jazz"? Who is a "jazz" player today? What is "jazz"? It's an old form. It has evolved into many varients; there can't be a "pure" form of it anymore, it can't mean anything because there can no longer be the context that it's a "new form". People here are talking about many IMO disparate, *separate* styles of music that *may* fall under the flag of "jazz"; but it doesn't mean anything as a label anymore - obviously.

I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. There are no purists anymore, except for insanely narcissistic types. Likewise, the sooner we let go of the notion of trapping music into all encompassing - but descriptively vague - labels, the better the music will be.


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#33712 02/19/02 02:39 AM
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While improvisiation might yield unexpected rewards, the self indulgence of jazz musicians to show off their chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values makes most off the music of this genre really disappointing.


Oh geez...if you don't know Jazz why would you attempt to define it? Are you bitter about something or someone?

Which jazz musicians in particular have you determined to be "showing off chops at the expense of other artistic, musical values"? I'm not going to say there aren't a number of wannabe players out there who do this but if you're lopping all Jazz soloists together in this analysis, well, perhaps you need to re-examine your qualifications first.

Also, I hope you realize sometimes people make music a certain way just because it's fun to do.

#33713 02/19/02 02:47 AM
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Quote:
I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. There are no purists anymore, except for insanely narcissistic types. Likewise, the sooner we let go of the notion of trapping music into all encompassing - but descriptively vague - labels, the better the music will be.


I agree and I have mostly erased genre 'rules' from my musical vocabulary when I play. However, I do have respect for the history of those who defined and redefined these genres. So anytime I sit down to make music the traditions of old often influence what I play and I feel I'm a better player because of the time spent studying them.

Not trying to make a particular point here...just commenting on the subject.

#33714 02/19/02 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid (snip)I'm tired of having to think about "is this a "jazz" gig? Or is this a "rock" gig? It's MUSIC, and you play. (snip) .


Yeah well I'm tired of getting pigeoned holed too, but for myself, I don't see that changing any time soon. Many of the gigs I've been doing lately require tunes like "Cherokee", "Joy Spring" or are just jazz originals. It IS music with a stylistic bent. It's a little hard not to call it jazz or require the other musicians to have a background in it, otherwise it's disaster time on the bandstand. Is it a dance gig? Is there a vocalist? Are we specifically catering to an audience requests or are is the audience there specifically to hear us play our asses off? Am I required to navigate myself through an intense set of chord sequences at the drop of the hat and make great music out of it or am I laying down a fat, funky, chunky, rhythm chank? Do I need to know the dance hits?

Come on, you have to know these things before you make it to the gig. For me it determines what guitar(s) I bring. Music IS style to a great degree. The more you know about style the better you'll be able to succesfully deliver what ever is required of the gig.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33715 02/19/02 07:33 AM
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Wow,I didn't know what I was starting.!.Also such a non sports dweeb..(must be that needlessly haughty Jazz musician thing )..I didn't ever imagine the sports connection..Well maybe we are all so ecumenical that jazz,rock basketball,politics,blegrass and whatever turns you on is all different paths up the same mountain etc..
I love a lot of musics..I happen to play Jazz..I don't mean to knock the other musics I do not play well or at all..
Obviously there is great and not so great music written and played in every genre..I do like the passion from y'all and I still would like critical feedback and a chance to hear some of you other jazz players with music to share...

#33716 02/19/02 07:48 AM
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Stanley,

I was browsing the New England Conservatory of Music website recently and saw that you were listed there as an alumni. I took classes there in 1985-86, I loved that school.

Anyway, I'll post some focused thoughts on your music tomorrow and I'll offer a couple of new recordings for you to check out.

#33717 02/19/02 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by henryrobinett:
Many of the gigs I've been doing lately require tunes like "Cherokee", "Joy Spring" or are just jazz originals. It IS music with a stylistic bent. It's a little hard not to call it jazz or require the other musicians to have a background in it, otherwise it's disaster time on the bandstand. Is it a dance gig?


Yeah, but still the lines are blurred. There's a place in my town where you might play Cherokee, but you could still get away with doing pretty much whatever you want to sneak in if you're good. The crowd aren't purists, but they'd all call themselves "jazz fans". The irony is what makes what happens there "jazz" imo is when something occurs that *isn't* "jazz" - because the "jazz" guys always play the SAME tunes. They'd be totally aghast at the notion of just calling out 3 chords and blowing, really simple, but that'd be more "jazz" then playing a staid rendition of Green Dolphin Street.. IMO...


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#33718 02/19/02 10:44 AM
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Not to jump to the defense of jazz musicians but in my limited experience (40 years), a good jazz musician can play nearly any style of music with relative ease. That is not the case with good rock musicians, country musicians, folk, etc.

The main reason I listen to jazz is the changes. I get so tired of rock, blues, country etc. with it's limited chord and timing structure within a song. And I play in a rock and roll band. You just don't get key changes and time changes within a song in most other music. And hey, I live with a bluegrass bass player..talk about no changes!!

And to call jazz musicians creeps because they blow extended leads and cop an attitude..listen to Pfish or the Dead..Wannabe jazz cats that just can't quite pull it off.


Mark G.
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#33719 02/19/02 11:39 AM
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this thread is about jazz music again, right?

i like jazz. say what you want about categories, when someone says "i like jazz", we know what they mean.

i've been listening to a lot more "classic jazz" lately. i pulled out some cds i hadn't listened to in awhile, and added some more (haden live, miles' "relaxin'"). i put 1Gb of "the standards" and my favorites in iTunes, i let it random a lot. the more i listen to "moanin'", the more i get the feel. same for modes in "maiden voyage" and "all blues".

jazz is a challenge. it's a challenge to listen to, and it's a challenge to play & compose well. that's why i like it. i can just sit back and listen & enjoy it, but i'll still think "wow, that's cool" and figure out the melody/ chord/ rhythm, and appreciate it

and learn it.

#33720 02/19/02 04:31 PM
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I think I get it! I've done my share of transcribing solos and playing over changes. Initially it was a challenge, but it ain't no rocket science. Quartal harmonies, modal improvisation, chord substitutions, blah blah blah, all interesting, but not ends in themselves; yet listen to most of the output of this genre (especially live) and you'll hear that the acquiring of the technique is the end in itself. So you can play John Coltrane licks, so can I, So What!

Even big names play gigs where their primary musical aim is to show off the depth of their knowledge and technique and not explore emotional, compositional and timbral combinations. Not that there isn't jazz like that, it's just when showing off your skill is the primary musical value, other more important musical values get lost, and I get kind of bored. If a quartet can't arrange a tune that is both interesting, emotionally compelling and allows for improvisations, then they are lazy and failing as musicians from my perspective

I expect to be moved emotionally and intellectually by music, not just amazed; and if the "artist" is just being athletic, maybe watching a basketball game is better distraction.

I never said that jazz musicians were creeps, I've met, jammed with "jazz" musicians that I consider very fine people; but there's enough of the haughty types that if you haven't met them, I might think you stay at home too much. I think you might find a little supercilousness in some of the postings in this thread. Give me a singer with a guitar, who can put over a song and I'll take that any time over a squacking saxaphone, I don't care if he can sing into his reed at the same time.

So I think jazz is great because there is great music from that genre, but there's nothing special about jazz, because there's no lack of greatness in other genres. It's not how well you can play, it's the effect of your playing that's important.

Stanley, I gave a listen to a couple of your tunes. Nice work. I'm impressed that you did that all in MIDI.

Joe

#33721 02/19/02 05:06 PM
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Quote:
I love a lot of musics..I happen to play Jazz..I don't mean to knock the other musics I do not play well or at all..
Obviously there is great and not so great music written and played in every genre..I do like the passion from y'all and I still would like critical feedback and a chance to hear some of you other jazz players with music to share...
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Stanley,

I am suprised that you weren't dealt with more severly on this thread since others who have similarly promoted there music here have been pounced upon to say the least. The accepted practice on the forum is that you post on the "Is Your Music Any Good Thread? Find Out here." thread if you want folks to check out your music. Otherwise it's considered spam and that aint good. \:\)

Anyway I did take a moment to check out your work this morning since I am a jazz fan although not just a jazz fan.

First of all I was somewhat intrigued that you listed your main influences as Miles Davis, Bill Evans, and George Russell since after listening to your first three tracks I would have thought that Cecil Taylor would more likely be among the leading exponents of the type sound your music resembles. For me this is what we used to call avant guard but in your case electronic and sequenced avant guard to boot. This has always been some very difficult listening for me personally and IMHO boarders on the most extreme perimiters of the jazz world.

I personally feel that jazz in general does not work well with sequenced parts, drums in particular. Since one of the main characteristics of the stlye is for live players to spontaneously bounce of each other so to speak, overdubbing, sequencing and the like tend defeat this most important aspect of the music.

I could hear though you've got some pretty strong piano chops and was wonderings have you recorded any more traditional stuff along the lines of Bill Evans.

#33722 02/19/02 05:10 PM
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Jeez Steve \:\) Defining jazz like defining the underground movement????.......you're starting a brushfire!!!!! \:\)
Especially with all the posters with Doctorates of BSology here!!!! \:\)


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#33723 02/19/02 06:38 PM
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Hey um...got a question for all y'all jazz players out there, what do you guys jam to when you practice by yourself, drum machines etc...? How long and how often do you practice?

I usually play along to instrumentals on vinyl or just jam along with drum machines but I get bored pretty quickly with drum machines, they just ain't interactive enough. Then I just ended up doing solo trying to indulge/enjoy myself in the sound for as long as I can, until I had enough.

How do you guys write your music? Since jazz is never about being repeativtive unlike any other type/structure, bit like a butterly flaping up and down with it's own path. Similarly to blues, except blues is more like a moment of blurb in the state of intoxication. Which makes it very hard trying remember or recreate a particular segment, since a lot of it is freestyle and depending on the mood at the time IMHO. \:\)

Often I record myself while I practice, I find it really helpful in picking out the SLOPPY part and also encourage me to do develop the parts that I like. What are your thoughts, any tips?

#33724 02/19/02 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Learner:
Hey um...got a question for all y'all jazz players out there, what do you guys jam to when you practice by yourself, drum machines etc...? How long and how often do you practice?


I don't jam with recorded material when I practice. I normally start with a battery of exercises, scales, arpeggios for warm ups and gettng my viewpoint focused on the neck and harmonic locations. I'll then improvise over some "standard" tunes. Lately it's been "Along Came Betty", "Giant Steps" (always), "I Thought About You", "Yours Is My Heart Alone, "It Could Happen To You", "Ill Wind", etc.. Or I'll concentrate on Coltrane substitutions or Trane type substitutions. OR I'll set up a modal groove and go off. All this goes out the window if I start writing a tune.

I love playing standards because they can be a challenge. It gives me a frame to create melodic motives and to follow the logic of a melodic/harmonic line. I find when I can do this well I can do the other things well as well. Being able to logically and aesthetically create and set up melodies; take them through variations, call and response, substitutions, side step, modulations, I find it helps me play funk, blues rock and roll too.

Now it doesn't necessarily follow that 'if you can play jazz you can play anything'. TECHNICALLY you can but not stylistically. I've met all kind of snobbish jazz guys who assumed they could do it because rock was so "simple", but try and get them to do it. It's style and that takes a while to digest. But it doesn't take as long as it would the other way around.

Back to practice: what I do is learn the chord progressions and improvise without aid of recording the changes, so I have to outline the chords with my single line improv so I can hear the changes in my head. Outlining the thirds and the general chord is always good for this, rather than playing through the tune modally. I find the tempo of the tune and set up a metronome most of the time. A lot of jazz guys buy these Jamey Abersol CDs that are music minus one type things. I've never used anything like that.

I spend about 1-2 hours doing my exercises and another hour or two improvising or learning another tune. I used to do this everyday. I've been practicing heavy for about 25 years. It's difficult for me to keep this up with children and studio work. So I get about 3 hours a day in about 3-4 times a week nowadays.

One of the things that separate musicians and their abilities is their practice routines and their dedication. Obviously what they bring to the table innately cannot be over/under estimated. But how they continue to grow and what music fuels them is crucial, I think, to how they end up playing.

I think writing music is like anything else. It may be a melody that inspires me. Sometimes it's a thing or event. It might be a chord sequence or a groove. The trick is to see it through; get an overall vision and be able to change your point of view. That's why I generally hate making a midi file or recording the basic idea before I've written it. Once it's down, even in a basic crude form, it's harder for me to change it. I get stuck with THAT viewpoint of the piece. I've gone back to pencil and paper or my software notation prgm.

Normally it's something unusual that catches my attention. If I come up with something that sounds too much like "X" I won't take the time to write it. That's why I've written hardly any blues tunes. I love to play them, but I'm not inspired to write another I-IV-V variation.

All this stuff is personal and there is no right/wrong way to do it. The only wrong way is the way that doesn't get it done.

My two cents.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33725 02/19/02 09:57 PM
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There was a time when jazz was "the Devil's music" and soundly condemned in favor of "serious" (classical and religious) music. It is a uniquely American invention... (damn uppity 'mericans), and its popular decline was sadly inevitable.

There was a time where jazz was THE music of the masses. Your parents, (or your grandparents) were certainly into the big band era. I enjoy much of the current post-bebop jazz, even some of the excesses of the "fusion" era and even some of the smooth jazz variety, but Big Band is my favorite jazz to have fun and to "dance" to. I thought the recent "swing" revival was kinda fun because it features those big sassy horn sections. PHAT! SAMPLE THAT, BABY!

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#33726 02/20/02 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by strat0124:
Jeez Steve \:\) Defining jazz like defining the underground movement????.......you're starting a brushfire!!!!! \:\)
Especially with all the posters with Doctorates of BSology here!!!! \:\)


hehe, yeah, could you tell I was a bit offended for no real apparent reason? \:\)

A very common theme amongst Pop/Rock players is this idea that anyone who plays a lot of notes is showing off. I won't argue that these kind of players don't exist, however, Jazz musicians who play just to show off wouldn't last more than a few minutes in most of the Jazz clubs I've played at.

It's no secret to anyone who's spent a few minutes listening to my music that I often play a lot of notes...so yeah, I take comments like Joe's personally despite my Titanium Ego. \:D

But whatever...not really trying to stir flames...sometimes I need to get shit off my chest...sorry 'bout that. \:D

#33727 02/20/02 12:34 AM
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Steve you're a cool _____ ______ in my opinion, and always a thoughtful and considerate poster. (dusting my knees off) \:\)


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#33728 02/20/02 12:34 AM
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i am particularly fond of shirley horn. i like george shearing at times. most of my listening these days is slow piano jazz and lounge music, but i also like people like joni mitchell and steely dan who play jazz in a context where most people listening dont even know its jazz. i am currently listening to "3s A Crowd" - a cd of piano jazz i bought from mp3.com.


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#33729 02/20/02 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by guitplayer:
There was a time when jazz was "the Devil's music" and soundly condemned in favor of "serious" (classical and religious) music. It is a uniquely American invention... (damn uppity 'mericans), and its popular decline was sadly inevitable....

guitplayer


Yeah...it's amazing to me how current Rockers don't give props to the BeBop cats...I mean way before there was Heavy Metal/Prog. Rock...Bebop was the place to be for 'degenerates'. Smoky clubs, Sex, Drugs, Loud Music...BEBOP! Not necessarily players showing off (though it was competitive and you had to earn a right to be there)...but a bunch of really creative players "Rockin Out", taking it to the next level.

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Originally posted by sagov@bellatlantic.net:
I haven't posted for a while ,I have a bunch of new rough,avant-Bop,fusion,bloozy and NOT SMOOTH Jazz pieces for your critical attention. and would also love to see more jazz music from others to listen to on this great forum
mp3.com/Stanley_Sagov



I listened to the first three tunes. Very cool stuff...it sucks that you have to rely on such lame keyboard sounds but the ideas are all really cool. Some of your leads feel a bit rushed to me, maybe it's a stylistic thing but with the drums not always holding a steady groove the leads have to be that much more groovy IMO.

The Drum programming is NUTS...very well done, the attention to detail is excellent, very impressive.

I'd really like to hear you play some real piano...do you have any recordings of yourself playing a Grand?

Thanks for sharing your tunes...I like the new ones a lot.

I have a few new ones that aren't quite finished yet...I'll post them on the big thread later this week, I'd love any comments you might have to offer.

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Hey all
I only had time to read page two here, so I hope I don`t say anything repetitive-
My folks turned me on to jazz-at least that of a certain era-back in junior high. I remember seeing this record on the stereo and thinking, `who on earth is Cannonball Adderly?`
When I was in grade school in Chicago, we lived right around the corner from Ahmad Jamal. One of my dad`s partners back in the day was Johnny Hartman.
I have a mixed feeling about some of the jazz neo-conservatives, like Wynton Marsalis in particular. On the one hand, I do think it`s a good thing to encourage music education in the schools, and counter this post-punk thing of, the heck with tuning-that`s for snobs. But his attitude of, if it doesn`t swing it`s not jazz-gets on my nerves big time. If he prefers jazz played within certain restrictions, that`s fine. But to say anything else isn`t jazz is presumptuous IMO, no matter how good he is.

#33732 02/21/02 02:13 AM
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I agree with you. Wynton is a whole'nuther subject. But there are folks who have very strict parameters of what they like and what they feel is acceptable/unacceptable, be it jazz, rock'n roll, hip hop, movies, literature, what have you.

I spent some time playing and teaching in Europe. Jazz is alive and kicking and taken much more seriously. So much so that I think, in the not too distant future, the direction will be set by some of those incredible musicians over there. For the first time the real innovations in this, one of America's only true art forms, will be led from shores not our own. And many of those setting the pace and direction aren't doing it in a way that is traditionally thought of as swinging. They are breathing new life into the music.

There's a guitar player, Vietnamese-French, whose name is Nguyen Le who is an example. A great writer and improvisor.

I think for any music to survive it has to stop limiting itself and apply less stringent definitions and be more accepting of various styles. And jazz has done this, to the extent that it's hard to tell what is jazz nowadays. But there are always those very conservative diehards. What I will say about Mynton is that he has forced us not to look away at the brilliant music created by Duke Ellington and others. Jazz suffered from the intensity of feeling that every new serious musician had to provide the next big innovative step. From Bird and Dizzy to Monk, Mingus to Coltrane to Ornette to Dolphy, Cecil Taylor, on and on. Wynton said "Wait a minute! We haven't even harvested the fields of THIS great music. Who said we have to outdo ourselves every generation?" And I have to agree with his point. Although I like the avant-garde much more than he apparently does.

Nuff said for now. I have to go pick up my kids.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
#33733 02/21/02 02:31 AM
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What I will say about Wynton is that he has forced us not to look away at the brilliant music created by Duke Ellington and others.


Yeah...I don't follow Wynton much but last I did he was spouting stuff that seemed to belittle what Duke did...he's into way older stuff than Duke isn't he?

Anyway...I think Wynton has relegated himself to Pompous Historian...from my POV he never had what it took to be an innovator musically. I never liked the way he played, especially in his early career when he tried to play bebop...it was kinda embarrassing because his brother was so good at it.

Also, I watched a lot of the Ken Burns jazz series on PBS and was highly put off by Wynton's take on things. He was attempting to talk from a position of authority on music that to me it seemed obvious he didn't get. Miles Davis used Wynton as the perfect example of someone who doesn't get jazz (or at least Miles' definition(s) of jazz \:\) ).

OK, I just spouted a bunch of opinion...true or not I know what I like to hear from Jazz music. All variations are legit and cool...just watch out if you feel the need to criticize mine (or mischaracterize it as ego stretching \:\) )

\:D

#33734 02/21/02 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Chip McDonald:


I'm tired of segmenting things into genres. I don't think it's valid anymore. It seems a rarity to me to encounter anyone who claims to like just one genre. I'm sick of dealing with being perceived as a rock player by one group, a jazz player by another, and a fusion player from yet another group of people.



Amen Chip! Banish the Genres! Tear down the walls! Damn the torpedos and hand me that ABBA LP! Ok, maybe that's going a bit too far.


I really don't know what to put here.
#33735 02/21/02 06:03 AM
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I listened to the first three tunes. Very cool stuff...it sucks that you have to rely on such lame keyboard sounds but the ideas are all really cool. Some of your leads feel a bit rushed to me, maybe it's a stylistic thing but with the drums not always holding a steady groove the leads have to be that much more groovy IMO.

The Drum programming is NUTS...very well done, the attention to detail is excellent, very impressive.

I'd really like to hear you play some real piano...do you have any recordings of yourself playing a Grand?

Thanks for sharing your tunes...I like the new ones a lot.

I have a few new ones that aren't quite finished yet...I'll post them on the big thread later this week, I'd love any comments you might have to offer.

Thanks for your attention and appreciation..I am often torn between my 1st instinct to play more metronomic quantised drum parts or more like every one is soloing together to make a more supple flexible groove...
I look forward to hearing your new pieces...

Also in response to LRoss

I do love Bill Evans and have recorded much acoustic piano in his style..actually had the privilege of playing opposite him in NY at the Village Gate in the 70's and visiting him at his apt and vice versa..He was and is one of my major inspirations...

#33736 02/21/02 09:05 AM
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The thing is, 100 years from now, THERE WON'T BE THESE DELIENATIONS. What seperates genres now are time periods; each style had it's little run of popularity. That's what defines it generationally, and that's increasingly less important as time passes between the genre and "now".


When I was younger I sought out oddball jazz tunes. Thought Giant Steps was fun because of the tempo of the changes, realized there was a trick to it, realized there was *ALSO* the simultaneous deepness to it as well, then realized that "it's been done". There's "Giant Steps". It doesn't need to be done again. As music goes it doesn't do anything for me. It's fun to play, amusing intellectually - but it doesn't say anything to me other than "John Coltrane sweating to push things forward" - which it did, but outside of that... what does it mean? On the other hand, some of his other stuff I think is completely transcendent, and a lot of it is *simple* - Naima (well, it's slow), Equinox, Impressions, Mr. P.C...

I've got a mix cd that has the following on it:

Jeff Beck's "Cause We've Ended as Lovers"
Pink Floyd/Gilmour's "Marooned"
Holdsworth's "Home"
Vangelis' "Memories of Green"

... and Coltrane's "Naima". Fits perfectly IMO. Music is music, not genres.


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
#33737 02/21/02 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chip McDonald:
The thing is, 100 years from now, THERE WON'T BE THESE DELIENATIONS. What seperates genres now are time periods; each style had it's little run of popularity. That's what defines it generationally, and that's increasingly less important as time passes between the genre and "now".



Yes and no. Sme of the be-bop innovations of the 40s still holds up. The technology of the recordings doesn't. But people are still playing the recordings and musicians are still playing the compositions and studying the transcriptions.

Now as we talk about generalizations we can truly only talk about what we ourselves have experienced. Your experience does not reflect mine. Yours is more universal, I have no doubt. BTW the only real way to play Giant Steps is not with the "trick". Sure there are three key changes, but if you listen to Trane play it and anyone else who really has it down, each chord is played, not just the key centers, off axis. So for me this is a geat exercise; kind of an etude.

So yes, what separates music generationally are "time periods" which is an obvious truth, I think. But it is more specifically style. I can listen to music of certain periods and "get" the cars that were being driven or the clothes styles. It's all a part of the music. But there is so much more there.

I think we've kind of been on a downward spiral in terms of musical sophistication. Around the turn of the LAST century pop music was distributed in sheet music. You'd go to a drug store or music store and pick out sheet music. There might be a piano there where you could try it out or have the salesman play it for you. People entertained each other by READING music. And much of that music was quite sophisticated. Today not only are we losing basic understandings of harmony but we're losing an understanding of song forms. I don't know how many tunes I hear that have virtually no bridge or sub-chorus. OK, you can say we're "growing and innovating". I think we're contracting to a lowest common demoninator.

Musically what Coltrane was doing in 1958 has, arguably, not been surpassed in terms of musical audacity or sheer technique. The manner in which he stacked chords on top of one another, beyond the fact that he did it in the first place. He made some primary discoveries that are still being applied and rediscovered today.

Whether people will still be listening to this music in 100 years is arguable and moot. People are still listening to Coltrane in 1958, Miles in 1960, Duke in 1935, Mingus in 1963, Bird in 1948. Well perhaps not you, but I know a lot of people who still do. What's more I play a lot of this music and get paid to perform it in concert venues.

Calling all music the same is showing a dis-service to the differences in those musics. Reggae is not Hip Hop, is not Blues, is not country is not bluegrass is not swing is not bebop is not rock is not funk. And the categories within are likewise unique. Holdsworth is not Vai is not Rhodes, is not Hendrix is not Gilbert is not Clapton is Van Halen is not . . . . And knowing the differences does not DIS the wonderful contributions of those individuals.


All the best,

Henry Robinett
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