Novation Summit - MIDI switching between single and multi?

[nursers]

I'm not sure how many others have a Summit, but I'm in the process of configuring it as my second gigging board. I use MainStage mostly as a 'patch changer' to send MIDI messages to each board so they change patches for the next song. Where I'm struggling with the Summit is I can't seem to work out the MSB/LSB combos to switch between single patches and the multi-patches. I can switch between single patches no problems but if I want to access a multi it won't do it. I know I can just save single patches to a multi slot but was hoping I could switch between.

 

 

I've done some heavy googling and also lodged a ticket with Novation but thought I'd ask here as well (and will post answer here if /when I get one from Novation)

[RudyS]

Can't help you, and don't want to go too much OT, but; Do you like it?

 

I'm thinking about getting one for in the studio myself.

[nursers]

First an update: Novation did reply (quite quickly) on broader issue I put to them of their Bank change setup: It's LSB 32, then bank number and patch number. Have replied asking about switching between Multi and Single banks

 

 

Hey Rudy - am liking it a lot, and as a studio machine I think it would be brilliant. I am hoping to use it for gigging as well but at this early stage I'm not seeing enough default sounds to cover off enough gigging bases. Eventually I want to LEARN th synth and build sounds but don't have time at present. I've just bought a third party bank of sounds which gets me closer to a gigging board so will wait and see.

 

Otherwise: it's a really solid piece of gear, like the keybed and can't wait to use it for my own ambient stuff

[Stokely]

Hey there, pulling this thread back up as I'm struggling with this very thing with my Summit. Were you ever able to switch banks.

 

Part of it is that I'm confused by the msb/lsb thing and maybe how it's implemented in the app I'm using (midi flow).

 

Program changes are no issue, but same problem: I can only change within the current bank.

for example, to go to a Multi patch in bank A I've tried cc0 followed by 4 or 5 (thinking maybe that the singles were the first four followed by the multis, and I wasn't sure if it started at 0 or 1...nothing happens to change the bank (even to the wrong one). I have a following program change that works to go to the patch within the bank.

 

If I need to use cc32, does that mean 3 messages (cc0 with value, cc32 with value, then a program change?) I'm trying this now and it's not doing anything either. This works successfully with my MODX. For example, to change to one particular patch I have three messages that go out in my Midiflow preset:

 

cc0: value of 64

cc32: value of 11

program change: value 75

 

Works every time. I may have messed something up so I'll double check. I wouldn't think with so few banks they'd need to use cc32 though.

[nursers]

Heya - I did hear back from Novation, with the following response:

 

"There is not a CC that can be used for switching between Multi and Single; only the buttons on Summit itself can perform this function. However, you can work with Multi patches as if they were Single patches by doing any of the following:

 

In Multi Mode when a single patch is required...

- use Dual Mode and only select one part or make both parts identical

- use Split Mode and make both parts identical

- use Layer Mode and make both parts identical

- send note data and other CCs only on the MIDI channel for one of the two parts

 

Due to the 16 voices being split into 8 for each of the two parts, you may find that the Multi patches behave slightly differently to their Single counterparts, so exploit the mode that best suits your needs for each particular patch.

 

One thing to be aware of is that in Multi Mode pitch and mod wheel messages for either part need to be sent to their respective MIDI channels, both channels or omni (all channels). Pitch or mod wheel messages received on the global MIDI channel will have no affect on some Multi patches -- this is a bug that is currently being worked on by our developers."

 

So no - you can't use something like MidiFlow or Mainstage to force the Summit to switch between Multi and Single

[Stokely]

Hey thanks for that. I sent Novation the issue but haven't heard back just yet, but this was my suspicion.

 

I did find that the bank changes followed by program changes work *within* either Multi or Single, using:

 

cc32 (value 1-4)

pc (value 1-128)

 

So it's frankly a bit ridiculous that there's nothing that can actually switch from Single to Multi, since I can see that bank and program changes work fine on Multi patches sent on the global channel.

 

I mostly use Singles to make sure I don't run out of polyphony (long release patches tend to). Because of that, if I switched all those to dual Multis it could be a limitation. As far as I know, the 16 voices are split 8 and 8 between the two Multi parts (or am I thinking of the Prophet Rev2, which I was going to buy before I got a deal on the Summit? )

 

If I only used Singles then I do lose the few splits I've set up for certain songs. So either way it's a compromise, and I don't understand why they'd hamstring things in this way. I guess it wasn't anticipated that someone might want to control it from something else (?) I wonder if sysex could do it, however I'd have expected them to say so if it could. I can send sysex messages from Midiflow presets during the "on load" event.

 

I'll have to decide if I want to stick to Singles or Multis only, or possibly I'll just train myself to do an extra manual button press of the mode button (which starts to defeat the purpose of using an app like Midiflow....).

It's especially irritating since the MODX is so flexible and provides multiple ways to reach patches (I'm still wrestling with whether I can send program changes to a spot in a user set, vs sending it to the patch itself, but other than that it's pretty easy.) I also can't yet get the Midiflow app to successfully change programs in B-3X--midi is working and routing fine, and I know B-3X has a setting for which channel program changes are to be sent on, but so far no luck.

[KaOsphere]

Hi, I just released a small video to adress this specific issue !

 

 

Maybe you'll find that interesting, it seems that all the good people at novation aren't aware what their synth is capable of...

 

TLDR :

 

Nrpn 62:0 is your friend !

[Stokely]

Whoa!

 

How the heck did you figure this out?

 

I haven't gone back to my ipad-driven setup, but I'm planning on it, and this could be very handy indeed! Thanks!

 

I'm currently wanting to check out keystage and see if that is a better fit for what I'm doing than Midiflow. They both seem to be able to route, and do patch changes, not sure if keystage will send specified controllers like this (midiflow will). I like the mainstage look and feel of keystage and *don't* like the preset list in midiflow, it's very plain and I can't do simple things like rearrange the order of presets.

 

---

 

Do you happen to know if there's a way to enable/disable local control via midi? I realize that is a totally different issue. Figured I'd ask! It's not a true show-stopper, what I did in testing is this: turn off local in the global settings. Then if I'm playing a song where the summit needs to play itself (vs playing my modx or the ipad) I route it to itself in midiflow. A bit odd but it works.

[KaOsphere]

Tbh I have found someone who mentioned nrpn 62:0 on an online forum. I"ve never been able to retrieve where I did get that, I suppose the post no longer exists. With a bit of try and error, I have been able to figure out the midi channels by myselfâ¦I thought it would be a good idea to share what I discovered.

 

Regarding local off, no such cc/nrpn/sysex exists in the midi implémentation afaik . I"ve made a workaround by setting a template in single/bank D patch 255. Called it midi only. Vca is set to 0â¦Using the same method, I made one patch in multi/bank D/ patch 254, called midi left where left patch has vca set to 0 and patch 255 called midi right which is the other way around.

 

Sending pchange is not so different of sending a cc that would achieve local off except you 'll cut the tail of your soundâ¦Not perfect, but not so bad eitherâ¦

 

You could also set the vca level to 0 since it is exposed to standard cc, but I found it more convenient to have midi only patches avaliable immediately, I tend to forget cc# Numbers easilyâ¦

 

Hope this helps.

[KaOsphere]

Just found revision list of the manual, seems that it can be interesting to have a look sometimes...

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l2pmChldan5rKX16_9F1Q6kN67XePRF1hlxebOXR3lk/edit?fbclid=IwAR2ebWUt2ekoGEs_9lCJ8i5q9927Oh_cJb1MbSgxukYp9qC_RY4voWelhJw#gid=241618355

[nursers]

Great stuff!

[Stokely]

Yeah, having a "blank patch" was also a consideration, if the local off/routing-Summit-to-itself through the ipad app causes me any problems I'd do that.

 

Frankly I use single mode the most anyway (I like having the extra polyphony and it sounds great as-is) but being able to switch to multi would be nice.

 

Thanks for the work you put in!

 

Just wondering--has anyone experienced any odd "delay artifacts" when switching patches? I think it mainly happens when I'm trying out a bunch of patches quickly, it's as if the delay engine can't keep up and it occasionally makes a really odd (and out of pitch at times) sound. I don't switch patches that way during songs--and the patches I use generally don't have delay-- or otherwise this might be quite irritating.

[vonnor]

... if I'm playing a song where the summit needs to play itself (vs playing my modx or the ipad) I route it to itself in midiflow. A bit odd but it works.

Not odd at all. I've been running my rig like this since 1989. All boards are LOCAL=OFF and all MIDI runs out to a master router (DMC MX-8 back in the day, Cantabile/PC today) and get's routed to where it needs to go - even if it's the same hardware instrument.

 

~ vonnor

[Guibert]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:12 PM, KaOsphere said:

Hi, I just released a small video to adress this specific issue !

 

 

 

Maybe you'll find that interesting, it seems that all the good people at novation aren't aware what their synth is capable of...

 

TLDR :

 

Nrpn 62:0 is your friend !

 

 

 

First of all thank you so much for this tip ! I tried to send those 3 cc from my computer to my Summit but... Nothing happens 😞 ... Would you know why ? I send 99 : 62, 98 : 0, and 6 : 1, all three on the global midi channel, in that order. If i send simple program changes, everything works fine. But I would really love to switch between single and multi modes. Thank you again for your Help ! Vincent