Live Performance in the Age of Covid

[Anderton]

Congrats! I guess now we all know what the Doors were singing about when they said "Break on through, to the other side."

[KuruPrionz]

Congrats! I guess now we all know what the Doors were singing about when they said "Break on through, to the other side."

 

 

It was quite a revelation to me just how many asymptomatic carriers could be out there, with no idea that they are infected.

 

Stay careful everybody, stay safe!!!!!

 

I am truly lucky to emerge unscathed. I still don't know where I got it, my one good lead is still sick but tests negative at the hospital lab, probably has the flu.

[Anderton]

I still don't know where I got it, my one good lead is still sick but tests negative at the hospital lab, probably has the flu.

 

FWIW the "shove a thing up your nose" test delivers a lot of false negative results with the Delta variant. Can't remember where I read that, or I'd do a link. It was posted by some Harvard medical researcher IIRC.

[KuruPrionz]

I still don't know where I got it, my one good lead is still sick but tests negative at the hospital lab, probably has the flu.

 

FWIW the "shove a thing up your nose" test delivers a lot of false negative results with the Delta variant. Can't remember where I read that, or I'd do a link. It was posted by some Harvard medical researcher IIRC.

 

Most of the false negatives result from initially testing too early, at least that's my understanding. I waited for a while after my positive to give the disease a chance to run it's course. I will continue to be careful and I plan on getting tested again this week to confirm results. I do appreciate your cautious observations!

[Notes_Norton]

I'm glad you're OK.

 

Notes â«

[RABid]

...

 

And, I took a 7 gallon plastic water container, installed an Audio Technica omni conference mic near the fill hole and it makes the fattest, punchiest kick drum ever. The volume in the room is low, the sound the mic sends to the DAW is HUGE.

 

LOL. When in high school back in the 70's I set up metal and plastic 55 gallon drums in the barn as a drum set. It was like giant timbales and bass drums. It was like my own little back country Stomp show years before Stomp came into existence. If I only knew then ..... I think about it every time I watch my Stomp Out Loud DVD.

 

By the way, cardboard boxes also make good bass drums.

[KuruPrionz]

...

 

And, I took a 7 gallon plastic water container, installed an Audio Technica omni conference mic near the fill hole and it makes the fattest, punchiest kick drum ever. The volume in the room is low, the sound the mic sends to the DAW is HUGE.

 

LOL. When in high school back in the 70's I set up metal and plastic 55 gallon drums in the barn as a drum set. It was like giant timbales and bass drums. It was like my own little back country Stomp show years before Stomp came into existence. If I only knew then ..... I think about it every time I watch my Stomp Out Loud DVD.

 

By the way, cardboard boxes also make good bass drums.

 

Ha! When I was a kid I'd set up two metal barrels, probably 15 and 20 gallons or so and take two pieces of rubber hose and sit in the back yard pounding away. I thought they sounded great, I bet the neighbors hated me!!!

Cardboard boxes can sound great, some suitcases sound great. We are surrounded by cool sounding stuff.

I saw a band once - Saint John the Conqueroo - their drummer used one of those rolling plastic garbage containers for his kick drum. He put all his other gear inside it and rolled it off the stage, pretty slick. Everything on his kit was improvised or home modified, all just regular stuff. No drums as we know them Sounded great too and the rest of the band played home made instruments as well.

[KuruPrionz]

I'm glad you're OK.

 

Notes â«

 

Thanks Notes, I am glad you are OK too!

[Anderton]

It's time for your "Daily Downer" from Covid world...this is from Bob Lefsetsz's newsletter:

 

I've been consistently saying that we gotta make proof of vaccinations mandatory at our events. Turns out, not even that is enough. The live business won't be back until 2023 at least. Why? The pandemic ain't over and it won't be because of the anti-vaxxers.

 

So, I'm writing this from COVID QUARANTINE. I've been fully Moderna vaccinated since April 14. Always tested negative. Until last Thursday. Thanks to the anti-vaxxers I caught the Delta variant sometime early last week. In majority vaccinated NYC!!!

 

Now. If I hadn't been vaccinated, I'd be really f.....d now. Nonetheless, I've been assigned monoclonal antibodies therapy, just in case...

 

How am I supposed to be putting on live superspreader events when even vaccination doesn't protect folks from break-through infections thanks to the virus variants continuously evolving among the unvaccinated?

 

Fact is, the only responsible thing for us promoters to do is to keep sh*t shut down until this thing is done and the vast majority of the country, indeed of the globe, is vaccinated. It's gonna cost us, certainly me, money. Lots of money. But it's either that or, thanks to the ever evolving variants, inevitably get people, including vaccinated folks, infected and sick. Money ain't everything.

 

Oh. And one of my partners and best friends died of this thing last month. This thing is no joke. Forget about live for now.

 

All the best,

 

Michael Fisher

[Doerfler]

Oh boy. Just when my day was getting better. Thanks for sharing this, it is important.

[Notes_Norton]

Before the plague, we played 12 consecutive winter seasons at a small marina/deli/bait shop. COVID came, the place was sold, the new owners have a different idea about how to run the business that doesn't include us. I wish them luck and I hope the changes they made work out for them. They seem like nice people.

 

We went to a competitor, and he just made it official. We will start after the rainy season is over, we get more money, and a free meal too. He has heard us, and he has seen what we did at the marina, so he is happy to have us.

 

It's outdoors, across the street from the beach, and we hope to continue our once-a-week-day party there for many years to come.

 

As far as I know the tables are set apart, the ocean breeze keeps the air circulated, they've been open through the plague, and so far it hasn't been a spreader event.

 

Little by little, we need to put this COVID behind us. Perhaps Biden's executive order for all >100 employee businesses, federal government employees, and government contractors to be fully vaccinated or weekly tested will put a big enough dent in the anti-vax community. We need to lick this thing and move on.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

[KuruPrionz]

Congrats! I guess now we all know what the Doors were singing about when they said "Break on through, to the other side."

 

 

Repeating for emphasis, I was one of them.

 

 

It was quite a revelation to me just how many asymptomatic carriers could be out there, with no idea that they are infected.

 

Stay careful everybody, stay safe!!!!!

 

 

If you have trusted friends that you feel safe being around because everybody is vaccinated, think again.

Get tested, often. That will be better than not getting tested but it doesn't assure that you are safe to be around, it might give you pause to avoid interaction if you find out soon enough.

 

The same is true for everybody you know. I'm sorry to have to say it. I am also incredibly grateful to know that none of my friends tested positive as a result of being around me.

While it may be that my immune system is now very resistant to the Covid I had, it does not follow that I will stay resistant due to variants.

 

There is a reason that the flu vaccine changes every year and we need to take the new one. Viruses mutate, some mutations will be successful and are not the same as the one you have developed antibodies from having or from vaccination.

[Notes_Norton]

Fortunately, Mrs. Notes and I have excellent health.

 

I haven't had the flu since I was 18, and I never get flu shots. At 18, I played a gig with a fever of 104, and although I wanted to stay home in bed, I knew I had the responsibility of the gig not only my employment but that of my bandmates.

 

That was probably in 1965 or 1966, I'm still gigging and have never missed the downbeat. I think knowing that I'm not going to have a leisurely sick day in bed, and I'm going to have to work/gig anyway, my subconscious fights invasions harder and doesn't give in.

 

Then back in 1990 I changed my diet to what is now called Keto (they called it Atkins back then). I lost 65 pounds. The bonus is, since then I've got sick exactly one time. Doing research, I read that when your body runs on ketones instead of glucose, your T cells are more much more responsive. That could be fake medical news, but the only time I got sick since I went keto was after we came back from a vacation in Vienna, Austria. There were so many great desserts there, that we sampled one every day. I think I caught a cold on the airplane ride home. It was one day of sneezing, one day of coughing, and it was gone. (I'm not giving medical advice - just reporting)

 

COVID came along with obviously more dire consequences than a cold or flu, so I took extreme precautions and got vaccinated as soon as it was available. I figured with something as dangerous as COVID, to err on the safe side exhibited good self-preservation behavior.

 

KuruPrionz, getting tested to protect my audience is good advice. Although I am an extremely healthy person, and vaccinated, I am going to bring this up with Mrs. Notes, who I am sure will think it's a great idea. After all, we love our audience and don't even play music louder than 85dba at the first table because we don't want to damage their ears.

 

Winter is coming 'up north' so please be extra careful and stay healthy.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

[techristian]

It's outdoors, across the street from the beach, and we hope to continue our once-a-week-day party there for many years to come.

 

As far as I know the tables are set apart, the ocean breeze keeps the air circulated, they've been open through the plague, and so far it hasn't been a spreader event.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

 

NICE !!! WITH A BEAUTIFUL VIEW TO BOOT !!

 

DAN

[Anderton]

It's outdoors, across the street from the beach, and we hope to continue our once-a-week-day party there for many years to come.

 

As far as I know the tables are set apart, the ocean breeze keeps the air circulated, they've been open through the plague, and so far it hasn't been a spreader event.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

 

NICE !!! WITH A BEAUTIFUL VIEW TO BOOT !!

 

DAN

 

Notes is the spokesperson for "why Florida can be a good environment for musicians."

[Notes_Norton]

It's outdoors, across the street from the beach, and we hope to continue our once-a-week-day party there for many years to come.

 

As far as I know the tables are set apart, the ocean breeze keeps the air circulated, they've been open through the plague, and so far it hasn't been a spreader event.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

 

NICE !!! WITH A BEAUTIFUL VIEW TO BOOT !!

 

DAN

 

Notes is the spokesperson for "why Florida can be a good environment for musicians."

 

It can be great, except in the summer. When the tourists are not here, the weather is nice, but the gigs are scarce.

 

August and September are the slimmest. In a normal year, we get one gig a week. That's when we take our vacation.

 

From Halloween through Easter is our season, and we make 3/4 or more of our yearly income then. From January through March we might do 10-20 one-nighters in a row, have a day off and do 10-20 more. (When the fishing is good, fish hard.)

 

The first few years we were in business, we went out on cruise ships in the summer and worked the season on land. After 4 years, I had enough clients to eke out a living through the summer on shore. Then I discovered that I can write aftermarket styles for Band-in-a-Box, and that supplements my income enough, so I can stay home and enjoy Florida in the summer.

 

But Florida is nice, we can play outdoor gigs all year long. There are a lot of retired folks who grew up believing live music is superior to DJs. And if they like you, there is a lot of loyalty. On a normal year we do yacht and country clubs (indoors with suit & tie or tuxedo) but we also play a lot of Hawaiian shirt gigs.

 

Our 12-season-old, once-a-week gig had a view of the Indian River Lagoon. It was on an island between the mainland and the barrier island, and across the water was the view was of a state park. The building was the guard house for the base where the US Navy SEALS were born during WWII. Every year they would have a muster, and it was always a pleasure and an honor to play for them. (They drank a lot, and the more they drink, the better we sound.)

 

Our new once-a-week gig will have a view of the ocean. We won't have the SEALS, but girls in bikinis. Sometimes change is good.

 

It's a tough gig, but somebody has to do it

 

Notes â«

[Jazzmammal]

I read a lot of negativity in this thread that I don't think is warranted. We are all basically getting by pretty good concerning COVID right now. It appears that everyone in this thread is vaccinated. The odds of going to the hospital and dying from a breakthrough infection is now .003. That's lower than the risk of hospitalzation and dying from the flu. Finally. There was a lot of incorrect talk about that 18 months ago but now it's here. IF you're vaccinated. The CDC has basically validated what I knew already from the veterans studies and that demographic I think is pretty close to this forum. Middle age and up. If you're vaccinated you have very little to worry about. Not zero, not perfection but very little.

 

Vaccinated people and wearing masks. What's missing from the vast majority of discussions and news articles and even lots of medical articles is what KINDS of masks? All but a few simply say masks, that's it. The correct answer is a high performance mask ie N95's or equivalent. From everybody's favorite unbiased news source the Washington Post:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/n95-mask-delta-variant-kn95/2021/07/23/ee849e6c-eafe-11eb-97a0-a09d10181e36_story.html

 

Scroll down to "Not All Masks Are Created Equal".

 

When I'm out shopping I wear one of my regular old Amazon sourced masks but really only to get by the store monitor. I know it doesn't do any good for anybody and I'm not about to spend upwards of $50 for a real N95 equivalent mask. I'll check people out while I'm shopping and I see many with their masks pulled down below the nose or they're using a bandana or gaiter. both of which are totally useless and this is in ultra liberal LA County. Masking itself means nothing in this era of Delta unless you're wearing a high perforemance mask such as N95's and very few are doing that anywhere and if they are is it properly fit? This means that all the stats from the states that have mask mandates are really data based on almost no masks because the masks people are using and more importantly HOW they're using them is basically useless with Delta. I'm not talking about last year when it was the original Alpha COVID, I mean now. Here''s a good article also explaining the weakness of the regular masks but explaining how to go one step below an N95 by using a good cloth mask over a properly fitted real surgical mask:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/masks-cdc-study-finds/story?id=75789183

 

Again, "properly fitted" "correct surgical mask" and who pays attention to that in the shopping asile? All those blue masks from China you can buy for $15 a pack look like real surgical masks but are they really? Seriously doubtful. This is a bit easier than going the full N95 route but I'm not doing that either. People are fed up with this. Congress certainly feels that way even though they talk a good masking game and look at the bad press the Emmy's got. The Hollywood people obviously feel that way too and I actually don't blame them for that. They're mostly young healthy people and most are probably vaccinated. Of course, if you have a severely compromised person living with you then you need to be more careful but folks like that are already using proper masks and doing other things. I'm talking about everybody else.

 

All that matters is vaccinations not the useless masks almost everybody I see is using.

 

Anyway, I'm changing my opinion about all this. Unless you're doing the full on N95 thing and I'm not, it's time to realize if you're not going the high performance mask route it's time to either stay home, order grocery delivery and leave the packages out in the sun to kill the virus or live your life and do your gigs if you're vaccinated. That's why I did my Catalina gigs even though I had to ride a crowded boat to get there and I'll do it again.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

I read a lot of negativity in this thread that I don't think is warranted. We are all basically getting by pretty good concerning COVID right now.

 

California is doing much better than most, that's for sure, which is probably coloring your opinion. If you live in Tennessee, Kentucky, Wyoming, West Virginia, etc. etc., things are NOT pretty good concerning Covid right now. In the US overall, hospitalizations, deaths, and new cases are all above every surge except for the Winter one (although we're currently 75% of the way there), and there was no vaccine available for those. Deaths are now over 2,000 a day, 130,500 new cases every day, ICUs running out of space, etc. A variant came out of nowhere, decimated India, and caused another surge in the US, hitting the unvaccinated really hard and negating the considerable progress that had been made. Pediatric cases continue to increase at an alarming rate.

 

Unvaccinated people are providing plenty of kindling for more Covid fires to break out, and thanks to them, it will have the luxury of time to create more mutations...and who knows where that will lead.

 

We just passed the number of deaths the US had from the Spanish flu. And whether I'm okay or not, there's a huge ripple effect. Health insurance premiums are going to go up. Places I wished I could go to are closed. Even those who don't die still have to deal with other long-term issues. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if health insurers start to consider covid as a pre-existing condition, and either deny coverage, or slam you with huge premiums.

 

And the virus wears down resistance. A doctor gave the analogy of a raincoat for the vaccine's protectiveness. You can go out in light rain for days on end, and you won't get drenched. But if there's a steady downpour, you're going to get soaked, raincoat or not. Based solely on anecdotal evidence, it seems the people getting breakthrough infections are the ones who were most likely to think they were pretty safe, and although they were careful, went about their daily routine. I still act as if I'm not vaccinated.

 

So yes, do the Catalina gigs, and you'll probably be fine. And people will love to be able to hear music, and it's good you can play. We'll see what kind of dues we'll have to pay this Winter, to cover all those people who don't care about diminishing the quality of life for others. This Winter will be the turning point, one way or another. Using the forest fire analogy, either we'll find out if all the dead wood burned and the fire can't progress...or whether the fire jumped a highway, and found a whole new forest.

 

On a practical level, there will be those who want to reach a modus vivendi with the virus. That's understandable. But it just pushes the day this goes away completely further into the future. The people I know who do live sound, book tours, and gig are pretty much resigned to seeing Uber Eats and Grub Hub as their main sources of income for the foreseeable future.

 

And you know how much I would love to be totally wrong!!

[KuruPrionz]

I read a lot of negativity in this thread that I don't think is warranted. We are all basically getting by pretty good concerning COVID right now. It appears that everyone in this thread is vaccinated. The odds of going to the hospital and dying from a breakthrough infection is now .003. That's lower than the risk of hospitalzation and dying from the flu. Finally. There was a lot of incorrect talk about that 18 months ago but now it's here. IF you're vaccinated. The CDC has basically validated what I knew already from the veterans studies and that demographic I think is pretty close to this forum. Middle age and up. If you're vaccinated you have very little to worry about. Not zero, not perfection but very little.

 

Vaccinated people and wearing masks. What's missing from the vast majority of discussions and news articles and even lots of medical articles is what KINDS of masks? All but a few simply say masks, that's it. The correct answer is a high performance mask ie N95's or equivalent. From everybody's favorite unbiased news source the Washington Post:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/n95-mask-delta-variant-kn95/2021/07/23/ee849e6c-eafe-11eb-97a0-a09d10181e36_story.html

 

Scroll down to "Not All Masks Are Created Equal".

 

When I'm out shopping I wear one of my regular old Amazon sourced masks but really only to get by the store monitor. I know it doesn't do any good for anybody and I'm not about to spend upwards of $50 for a real N95 equivalent mask. I'll check people out while I'm shopping and I see many with their masks pulled down below the nose or they're using a bandana or gaiter. both of which are totally useless and this is in ultra liberal LA County. Masking itself means nothing in this era of Delta unless you're wearing a high perforemance mask such as N95's and very few are doing that anywhere and if they are is it properly fit? This means that all the stats from the states that have mask mandates are really data based on almost no masks because the masks people are using and more importantly HOW they're using them is basically useless with Delta. I'm not talking about last year when it was the original Alpha COVID, I mean now. Here''s a good article also explaining the weakness of the regular masks but explaining how to go one step below an N95 by using a good cloth mask over a properly fitted real surgical mask:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/masks-cdc-study-finds/story?id=75789183

 

Again, "properly fitted" "correct surgical mask" and who pays attention to that in the shopping asile? All those blue masks from China you can buy for $15 a pack look like real surgical masks but are they really? Seriously doubtful. This is a bit easier than going the full N95 route but I'm not doing that either. People are fed up with this. Congress certainly feels that way even though they talk a good masking game and look at the bad press the Emmy's got. The Hollywood people obviously feel that way too and I actually don't blame them for that. They're mostly young healthy people and most are probably vaccinated. Of course, if you have a severely compromised person living with you then you need to be more careful but folks like that are already using proper masks and doing other things. I'm talking about everybody else.

 

All that matters is vaccinations not the useless masks almost everybody I see is using.

 

Anyway, I'm changing my opinion about all this. Unless you're doing the full on N95 thing and I'm not, it's time to realize if you're not going the high performance mask route it's time to either stay home, order grocery delivery and leave the packages out in the sun to kill the virus or live your life and do your gigs if you're vaccinated. That's why I did my Catalina gigs even though I had to ride a crowded boat to get there and I'll do it again.

 

Bob

 

I thought Craig would delete your political post but since he responded to it, fair game.

 

"Ultra Liberal"?

You had to go there, maybe visit Idaho or Florida and get back to me about how little masks can do. Our hospitals in Spokane (I live in WA) are full to overflowing with Covid cases from Idaho, where mask wearing of any sort is looked down upon. Their medical system, which is underfunded by poor voting decisions, is completely overwhelmed. So they come here, to spread joy, happiness and Covid.

 

As to vaccines, yes they can make getting Covid "less worse". They can also create an interesting situation, I know this from first hand experience.

 

I was vaccinated in March, second shot of the Moderna vaccine. End of August, I was infected with Covid. I wasn't wearing a mask in an outdoor area, hanging out with others who have all been vaccinated.

I was sick for a couple of days and asymptomatic for 2+ weeks. I was smart enough to be tested and isolate.

 

I could have gone "happy go lucky" and spread Covid, I felt fine but carried the virus. You don't know how many there might be, infected like I was (tested negative recently), sitting close to you on your boat ride to Catalina. Good luck but don't get "too lucky"!!!!

[KuruPrionz]

I read a lot of negativity in this thread that I don't think is warranted. We are all basically getting by pretty good concerning COVID right now. It appears that everyone in this thread is vaccinated. The odds of going to the hospital and dying from a breakthrough infection is now .003. That's lower than the risk of hospitalzation and dying from the flu. Finally. There was a lot of incorrect talk about that 18 months ago but now it's here. IF you're vaccinated. The CDC has basically validated what I knew already from the veterans studies and that demographic I think is pretty close to this forum. Middle age and up. If you're vaccinated you have very little to worry about. Not zero, not perfection but very little.

 

Vaccinated people and wearing masks. What's missing from the vast majority of discussions and news articles and even lots of medical articles is what KINDS of masks? All but a few simply say masks, that's it. The correct answer is a high performance mask ie N95's or equivalent. From everybody's favorite unbiased news source the Washington Post:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/n95-mask-delta-variant-kn95/2021/07/23/ee849e6c-eafe-11eb-97a0-a09d10181e36_story.html

 

Scroll down to "Not All Masks Are Created Equal".

 

When I'm out shopping I wear one of my regular old Amazon sourced masks but really only to get by the store monitor. I know it doesn't do any good for anybody and I'm not about to spend upwards of $50 for a real N95 equivalent mask. I'll check people out while I'm shopping and I see many with their masks pulled down below the nose or they're using a bandana or gaiter. both of which are totally useless and this is in ultra liberal LA County. Masking itself means nothing in this era of Delta unless you're wearing a high perforemance mask such as N95's and very few are doing that anywhere and if they are is it properly fit? This means that all the stats from the states that have mask mandates are really data based on almost no masks because the masks people are using and more importantly HOW they're using them is basically useless with Delta. I'm not talking about last year when it was the original Alpha COVID, I mean now. Here''s a good article also explaining the weakness of the regular masks but explaining how to go one step below an N95 by using a good cloth mask over a properly fitted real surgical mask:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/masks-cdc-study-finds/story?id=75789183

 

Again, "properly fitted" "correct surgical mask" and who pays attention to that in the shopping asile? All those blue masks from China you can buy for $15 a pack look like real surgical masks but are they really? Seriously doubtful. This is a bit easier than going the full N95 route but I'm not doing that either. People are fed up with this. Congress certainly feels that way even though they talk a good masking game and look at the bad press the Emmy's got. The Hollywood people obviously feel that way too and I actually don't blame them for that. They're mostly young healthy people and most are probably vaccinated. Of course, if you have a severely compromised person living with you then you need to be more careful but folks like that are already using proper masks and doing other things. I'm talking about everybody else.

 

All that matters is vaccinations not the useless masks almost everybody I see is using.

 

Anyway, I'm changing my opinion about all this. Unless you're doing the full on N95 thing and I'm not, it's time to realize if you're not going the high performance mask route it's time to either stay home, order grocery delivery and leave the packages out in the sun to kill the virus or live your life and do your gigs if you're vaccinated. That's why I did my Catalina gigs even though I had to ride a crowded boat to get there and I'll do it again.

 

Bob

 

I thought Craig would delete your political post but since he responded to it, fair game.

 

"Ultra Liberal"?

You had to go there, maybe visit Idaho or Florida and get back to me about how little masks can do. Our hospitals in Spokane (I live in WA) are full to overflowing with Covid cases from Idaho, where mask wearing of any sort is looked down upon. Their medical system, which is underfunded by poor voting decisions, is completely overwhelmed. So they come here, to spread joy, happiness and Covid.

 

As to vaccines, yes they can make getting Covid "less worse". They can also create an interesting situation, I know this from first hand experience.

 

I was vaccinated in March, second shot of the Moderna vaccine. End of August, I was infected with Covid. I wasn't wearing a mask in an outdoor area, hanging out with others who have all been vaccinated.

I was sick for a couple of days and asymptomatic for 2+ weeks. I was smart enough to be tested and isolate.

 

I could have gone "happy go lucky" and spread Covid, I felt fine but carried the virus. You don't know how many there might be, infected like I was (tested negative recently), sitting close to you on your boat ride to Catalina. Good luck but don't get "too lucky"!!!!

[Notes_Norton]

Here in Florida, where there are laws against mandatory mask wearing and/or vaccine passports, we are the epicenter of COVID in the USA.

 

Obviously, masks and vaccines work. I'm moderate, a little liberal on social issues and a little conservative on fiscal issues, and I think there should be a vaccine mandate for the entire country for all that are able to get it. It's an emergency, and in an emergency it's OK to do things you wouldn't want done during normal circumstances.

 

If you needed to ride a crowded boat to an island gig here, and a person walked up to the boat, not wearing a mask while coughing, sneezing, wheezing, and running a fever of 104, the boat company cannot ask if he/she has been vaccinated, cannot ask for a covid test, cannot for him/her to wear a mask, and cannot refuse him/her entry. Would you ride the boat under those circumstances?

 

I wear a KN95 mask when I go out. A brand that has been approved by the CDC. I go to the grocery store in the morning when the stores are less crowded. I don't, go to theaters, concerts, eat at indoor restaurants, and I wouldn't take either an indoor gig or a gig where I had to take crowded public transportation of any kind to get there.

 

Am I 100% safe? Nope. But I've minimized my odds.

 

I wear my seat belt and practice defensive driving too. Am I 100% safe? Nope. But I've minimized my odds.

 

I eat healthfully and watch my weight? Am I 100% safe? Nope. But I've minimized my odds.

 

I don't swim in the ocean when the sharks migrate by. Am I 100% safe? Nope. But I minimized my odds.

 

I'm only taking outdoor gigs where there is good ventilation and distance from the crowds. Nope. But I've minimized the odds.

 

An indoor club called me and offered me a gig. This club is frequented by the kind of people who are anti-vax and anti-mask folks (ultra-conservative?). This club has been closed twice due to Covid and a friend of mine lost his bass player to COVID and played that club. I refused. Am I 100% safe? Nope. But I minimized my odds.

 

I try to avoid the plague like the plague and feel it's better to give up a little income than to put myself at risk for permanent lung/brain/liver/heart injury.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

[Stokely]

I feel safer now that I've been chugging horse dewormer for the past few weeks. Or was I supposed to inject it, it's hard to keep this "medical" stuff straight.

 

 

And no, I haven't been chugging horse dewormer. Just when I think people can't be driven by social media to more moronic depths, down they sink.

 

 

It would be almost comical if people weren't threatening medical people when their dying unvaccinated relatives won't be given a nonsense "cure" by medical professionals. Here's a thought--if you aren't going to believe in science, stay home and cure yourself with horse paste, bleach and prayers. If hospitals are trying to kill your loved ones--and this is a growing sentiment--then don't ****ing go. I have a brother working in an ICU that I'd like to have back in one piece, no thanks to these fools.

 

One thing this whole thing has cemented to me--my "wonder what it would be like to live somewhere different" has changed from wondering to a plan. I'm outta here, job permitting, once my youngest is out of the nest, which is relatively soon. This place is loony. Every state has their issues but we seem to revel in ours and I don't fit in here any more.

[PrairieGuy]

I feel safer now that I've been chugging horse dewormer for the past few weeks. Or was I supposed to inject it, it's hard to keep this "medical" stuff straight.

 

 

And no, I haven't been chugging horse dewormer. Just when I think people can't be driven by social media to more moronic depths, down they sink.

You've been duped. The human version of Ivermectin is not a horse dewormer, yet that lie continues to be spread by the misinformed...or those with an agenda that doesn't include the truth. Ivermectin is one of the most used and safest drugs on the planet. 200 million doses a year given to humans, and the creator won the Nobel Prize for it in 2015.

 

The real question is: Why are some people...many of them highly educated, lying about one of the most common, safest, and well known drugs on the planet?

[Notes_Norton]

The question is, why are people afraid of the vaccine but yet will take Ivermectin, and other cures, when an ounce of prevention is the preferred choice?

 

Vaccines have been proven to prevent disease.

[Anderton]

I feel safer now that I've been chugging horse dewormer for the past few weeks. Or was I supposed to inject it, it's hard to keep this "medical" stuff straight.

 

 

And no, I haven't been chugging horse dewormer. Just when I think people can't be driven by social media to more moronic depths, down they sink.

 

You've been duped. The human version of Ivermectin is not a horse dewormer, yet that lie continues to be spread by the misinformed...or those with an agenda that doesn't include the truth. Ivermectin is one of the most used and safest drugs on the planet. 200 million doses a year given to humans, and the creator won the Nobel Prize for it in 2015.

 

The real question is: Why are some people...many of them highly educated, lying about one of the most common, safest, and well known drugs on the planet?

 

1. Because people are buying/taking the horse version because all they see is "Ivermectin." So of course the two are conflated. There has been plenty of information on all media that there's a difference between the two, but let's face it, all media has agendas and some of them aren't too careful about spelling out the difference repeatedly. You have to get a prescription for the human version, so people take the animal version, which doesn't require a prescription. So people ARE taking horse de-wormer. Period.

2. There are no, repeat no, credible studies that show Ivermectin helps prevent or mitigate covid. And while we're putting myths to bed, there are no credible studies that human Ivermectin causes low sperm count or sterility.

3. Doctors don't prescribe drugs in cases where patients don't have a disease or symptoms that the drug treats. They don't like being sued for malpractice ("well the doctor should have known there could be serious side effects, give me a million dollars"). Common side effects:

 

Pruritus of skin

Arthralgia

Fever

Skin rash

Tachycardia

Lymphadenopathy

 

4. Serious side effects:

 

Neck/back pain

Swelling face/arms/hands/feet

Chest pain

Fast heartbeat

Confusion

Seizures

Loss of consciousness

 

 

Please, we don't need propaganda on either side about Ivermectin. Both sides are using it as a diversion. There are theoretical reasons why Ivermectin may inhibit attachment of spike proteins. Unfortunately, possible effectiveness for SARS required dosages 100 times the recommended amount for humans. To find out more truth about what it is and isn't, and why the NIH recommends neither for or against, read studies from medical professionals and talk with them, not us..

 

If you DO have river blindness, roundworms, or scabies, consult with your doctor to find out if Ivermectin will help you.

 

Okay, let's get back to concerts.

 

More doctors are starting to think that because so many unvaccinated people have contracted it, and so many people have gotten the vaccine, there may be enough people with antibodies that there won't be another big surge.

 

Of course, all bets are off if some new variant shows up.

[PrairieGuy]

The question is, why are people afraid of the vaccine but yet will take Ivermectin, and other cures, when an ounce of prevention is the preferred choice?

 

Vaccines have been proven to prevent disease.

You can't compare vaccines that have decades long histories of success to a brand new vaccine that was rushed and has only been around for less than a year. No one knows the long term effects yet or how long it lasts. Well, we know it doesn't last because we're already told we need a 3rd shot. The 4th and 5th shots won't be far behind. Follow the money.

 

Some people are fully vaccinated except for Covid, how does that make them an anti-vaxxer? No one trusted Big Pharma a year ago (and for good reason), now they're treated like gods who can do no wrong.

[Joe Muscara]

You can't compare vaccines that have decades long histories of success to a brand new vaccine that was rushed and has only been around for less than a year. No one knows the long term effects yet or how long it lasts. Well, we know it doesn't last because we're already told we need a 3rd shot. The 4th and 5th shots won't be far behind. Follow the money.

 

Some people are fully vaccinated except for Covid, how does that make them an anti-vaxxer? No one trusted Big Pharma a year ago (and for good reason), now they're treated like gods who can do no wrong.

 

I'm trying to decide if I should reply to all that's wrong with this post, or remind myself

Okay, let's get back to concerts.

which the first quoted post had nothing to do with. I appreciate Craig's moderation of this thread and his efforts to keep it on topic.

[Anderton]

I'm going to try to turn this into a teachable moment as to why I don't like political discussions.

 

Phil Valentine once said that bias isn't about what you say, it's about what you omit. I agree. Take this phrase:

 

"Ivermectin is one of the most used and safest drugs on the planet. 200 million doses a year given to humans, and the creator won the Nobel Prize for it in 2015."

 

It sounds like something that was lifted word-for-word from Tucker Carlson or some anti-vaxxer. And, it's mostly true, except that the Nobel prize was also shared, it was for the precursor for Ivermectin (not Ivermectin itself), and it was not for anything related to covid or SARS. FWIW, Ivermectin remains not only the top-selling veterinary drug in the world, but has been amazingly beneficial in controlling diseases in humans for which there had been no cure. There is no doubt that Ivermectin has benefited the human race, as well as animals, greatly. That is a fact. Effectiveness with covid is not.

 

The first trials of Invermectin occurred in 1987-1989 (the first mRNA vaccine trials were in 1989, but theory didn't turn into practice until 1993). Remember, the Covid vaccine is based on this technology. Saying that it's a problem because it is a new drug that was rushed into production is like saying that a new Roland synthesizer that was rushed into production for NAMM must be seriously flawed because it uses microprocessors. Both situations have known technologies as their underpinnings.

 

However, here's the problem with the phrase I quoted. It shows no indication of independent thought, or research into Ivermectin, its side effects, studies on efficacy in multiple areas, and the like. As Valentine would have said, what it omits is its bias.

 

Note that my post didn't quote what I'd heard from the media. It linked to a document regarding NIH studies, which itself had links to additional studies. And the phrase I quoted above is by no means the only example of cherry-picking the opinions of others, rather than making a uniquely personal statement. Those who have concerns about side effects haven't taken the effort to find out what those side effects are, and the pro-vaccine people aren't going to tell you the conditions where side effects were serious (for example, trying to use mRNA-based medicine on cardiovascular, renal, or metabolic problems). Of course, the application for covid is very different, but to dismiss side effects is omitting, or ignoring, part of the story. If people HAD been honest about side effects, I would bet more people would have gotten the vaccine, because they would have been able to compare potential (and also pretty well-known) side effects to what would happen if they got covid. Remember, I wasn't going to get the vaccine initially, because I didn't think I would need it. But I wasn't going to gamble with possible, most likely non-serious or non-lasting side effects, compared to ending up dying slowly in a hospital, with tubes stuck into me and fighting just to breathe...or surviving, but getting long covid.

 

So what we have, usually on both sides, is a repetition of opinions picked up from their respective echo chambers, and presented as valid.

 

They're not. And repeating those opinions is a waste of everyone's time.

 

Now let me poke some liberal bias. They correctly said that conservative talk-show host Phil Valentine, who was anti-vaxxer, died of covid. They often reference his "Vaxxman" song, and imply he got what he deserved. What THEY omit is that he didn't die because he was a conservative, he died because he was arrogant. He thought he was healthy and wouldn't get it, and that the whole thing was overblown anyway. As he lay dying, he realized that wasn't the case. Also, he was an anti-vaxxer for himself because he thought he would be fine, so why risk any side effects, no matter how minimal? But he told others to consult with their doctors, make up their own minds, and if they were in an at-risk profile, they should probably get it. As to "Vaxxman," he did a lot of satirical music, it was part of his schtick (trivia for the day: he used Cubase).

 

So, just as we had a statement based an opinions from people who had obviously done close to zero research on Ivermectin, we had statements from people who had obviously done zero research on Phil Valentine.

 

I welcome those who deal with facts, have gone into a subject in depth, understand that every story has shades of gray, and is careful to point out what those shades are. Parroting what Tucker Carlson or Rachel Maddow says contributes nothing - I repeat, NOTHING - to the conversation, other than making you look like a blind follower instead of a thinking person. And if you want to lose any remaining credibility, never admit you're wrong, or that the other side may have a point.

 

Please consider this before pressing "post reply" if your post strays beyond the original intentions of this thread. I have now described my standards in no uncertain terms, I'm the moderator, and I call the shots as to which posts meet my standards.

 

In the words of Darth Vader, "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

[Jazzmammal]

Funny. Everybody has missed the main point of my post, even you Craig which surprises me.

 

My point was how masks are basically useless right now unless they are proper high performance masks that are being worn correctly. Wearing a loosely fitting N95 does no good, it must be worn correctly. My contention is admittedly without proof but still reasonable I think. It's this:

 

All the talk of Idaho, Florida, Texas or anywhere else where people resist wearing masks doesn't matter any more. It's irrelevant. Why? Because nobody or very few at least are correct;y wearing the type of mask required to combat the Delta variant. That's why I posted the WaPo article and ABC News one which apparently nobody read. These are not the only ones either, there are many doctors and researchers who have said this in interviews, in print, lots of places. Delta requires a much higher level of masking. If that's reasonable, what are the implications of that when you want to compare those areas that resist masking to areas with mask mandates? I was careful to restrict this to recent comparisons since the Delta variant became a big issue, not last year with the original Alpha COVID. Alpha was stopped reasonably well with basic simple masks, Remember all the detailed references to studies about droplets and how even something as bad as a gaiter can at least stop most of the droplets from a cough or sneeze? Therefore wearing a mask, any mask, was useful. According to these recent studies, that's not true with Delta so here's the punchline:

 

If people are not wearing high performance masks AND wearing them properly then the statistics coming from states and other areas with masking mandates are useless as a comparison with states/areas with no mask mandates. People not wearing a proper mask is the same as not wearing a mask at all. Vaccinations are what matter not mask mandates

 

Kuru's comment about anti maskers from Idaho filling up Spokane's hospitals has nothing to do with masks it's being vaccinated that counts.

 

This is the discussion I wanted to start.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

Funny. Everybody has missed the main point of my post, even you Craig which surprises me.

 

I kind of thought it didn't need to be addressed, I figured it was common knowledge that there are differences among masks (FWIW I have a real N95).

 

Kuru's comment about anti maskers from Idaho filling up Spokane's hospitals has nothing to do with masks it's being vaccinated that counts.

 

This is the discussion I wanted to start.

 

But it's not a discussion we can continue, because contradictory information continues to come in. The most recent, large-scale study (300,000+ people) in Bengladesh showed that masks in general caused a distinct decline in cases (around 30%, IIRC). Is it gospel? I don't know, and you don't either, because apparently no one really knows...which is why studies are ongoing.

 

It's a no-brainer that being vaccinated helps, it's a no-brainer that a quality mask will do more good than tissue paper draped across your face. Beyond that, none of us are career epidemiologists, at least that I know of.

 

The discussion I want to continue is what are we going to do to make a living under the circumstances. We can't magically get people vaccinated before they come to concerts, or magically cause them to wear the right kind of masks, or magically get all the medical professionals to agree so we have a totally clear and unambiguous knowledge about the virus and its ramifications.

 

This is why I'd rather talk about something like the apparent efficacy of covid-sniffing dogs. If they really are that good, and all evidence so far is they are, that's an opening for small venues to make sure that audiences are as close to covid-free as is humanly possible.