Micing a keyboard amp . . . really?

[BluMunk]

I've volunteered to do sound for an outdoor gig - vocalists, small string ensemble, and a keyboardist. I know many of the folks involved, including the keyboardist.

 

At our initial meeting, he asked me if I could mic his amp instead of going direct in . . . "it's made of wood designed to make it sound more like a real piano," says he.

 

I'm all about doing what makes folks happy, but this is bonkers, right? With all of the other variables in play, including an amateur sound guy, there's no way that micing his Motion Sound or whatever he's got is going to make for better audio for anyone?

[MAJUSCULE]

Run a DI and go through to his amp, put a mic up to make him happy. If you have enough channels, I assume.

[Docbop]

Amp's color the sound and maybe he's trying to say he likes the colored sound better than direct into PA. I'd be prepared for both and listen to his setup and decide what direction or both to use. Also maybe the amp has a direct out, but have to find out if the amp's direct out is pre or post EQ stack internally.

[MathOfInsects]

I like Eric"s idea. Give him his mic but also take DI 'just in case.' Then use the DI and all is good in the kingdom.

[El Lobo]

I agree -- mic & DI. Good solution. Everybody happy. Win win. Yada yada.

 

1st edit: (Of course he's wrong. But you can't win that argument with words.)

 

2nd edit: what Docbop said above. Can you take direct off the amp? That would certainly be far better than miking the amp. The mic itself will lend lots of its own color, and destroy the keyboardist's whole point about getting the color of the amp. You can say direct from the amp would preserve the sound of the amp better than miking it.

[Reezekeys]

Why take it upon yourself to make this person sound better if he doesn't seem to want to? I would mic it & be done with it. If he sees you adding a DI or something else, he'll know that you don't respect his opinion on what makes him sound the way he thinks he should sound. Just be ready to explain to anybody mildly familiar with how this stuff works that the decision to mic was not yours!

[BbAltered]

That's how the pros do it. /s

 

A few years ago, the "pro" sound guy at a show we did managed to get a loud ground hum in his system. The ground hum showed up in my keyboard monitor when we connected keyboards to PA. I complained, so the sound guy suggest I run the keyboard out directly to my 2-way monitor, and the sound guy stuck a single mic in front of the monitor. Problem Solved!!!!

[Docbop]

As a sound guy for years the real answer is be ready for anything and choose what sounds best out front. From the DI to the audience ears there is a lot of gear so what your sending might be great in headphones or a recording, but out front is a different story.

 

Now I'm an old school sound guy who believes my job is to get sound to all parts of the venue and do a little to the sound as possible. Too many of today's mixer look at live audio as just a way to make money till they are a star recording engineer or producer and they mix like they are mixing a record. You can spot them easy by they have headphones too much for mixing FOH, or they start talking about plug-ins and effects. Live PA work is making sure everybody in the venue can hear the show that going on on-stage.

[Delaware Dave]

That's how the pros do it. /s

 

A few years ago, the "pro" sound guy at a show we did managed to get a loud ground hum in his system. The ground hum showed up in my keyboard monitor when we connected keyboards to PA. I complained, so the sound guy suggest I run the keyboard out directly to my 2-way monitor, and the sound guy stuck a single mic in front of the monitor. Problem Solved!!!!

this happened to me one time as well. funny how it never happens when we do our own sound and i go through the PA.

[BluMunk]

Thanks all for the confirmation. Yes, I'm planning on a DI out from the amp if it has a line out, or from the board, and possibly doing a dummy mic at the amp if necessary.

 

Yes, Reezekeys, you're right on that front- ultimately it's his choice about how he sounds. But, as someone who is definitely not a pro at this, I'm also thinking about ways to make my life easier. I'm envisioning all the opportunities I'll have to struggle; one more live mic on stage, lack of precision each night (we gig three nights, with set-up and tear-down after each show, and minimal opportunity to sound check each evening), .

 

What I told him at our meeting was that I'd really prefer to DI for those reasons, but I'd be open to continuing to talk about it as we get closer to the gig. Which is part of why I came here- looking for confirmation that at best his magic amp will be colored by whatever mic I scrounge up to put in front of it plus the noise floor involved in doing so, and at worst there's an annoying electrical hum that I can't troubleshoot, and/or I have trouble getting enough clean signal to send to the vocalists' monitors.

 

My philosophy for most gigs of any stripe is to stick with what I have the most confidence to get right, because there's a paying audience.

[16251]

If it was a Roland amp I could understand.

[El Lobo]

My philosophy for most gigs of any stripe is to stick with what I have the most confidence to get right, because there's a paying audience.

Even if it's a freebie. It's about doing your best, regardless of the gig. Even if you're an amateur, it's being a pro.

[Reezekeys]

I completely get it, and hopefully you can convince this person that a DI is a better choice. Maybe tell him that the transformer in the DI (assuming you have that type!) will "warm up" his sound . I'm only saying that some people are stubborn and don't want to listen to facts. I can think of another example of this phenomenon taking place right now, but that's as far as I'll take it here. Anyone playing a keyboard on a gig telling me to mic an amp because it's "made of wood" which will make it sound more "real", well, you pretty much know what you're dealing with. That's why I suggested going with the insanity - less dues for you in the long run, despite the sound not being as good.

[Piktor]

Ideally, your friend could play you the sound that he wants to have so that you know what he wants to acheive. If he would trust that you to get that same sound using whatever methods work best for you, everyone would be happy. As a player, I have issues with someone deciding for me that they were going to "improve" upon my conceived sound. e.g. "I don't WANT the Rhodes to sound sparkly! I want lo fi." (However, I don't mind hearing someone explain to me why my concept is not going to work, etc.) Because you are dialoguing with the guy, it sounds to me like you want to respect his concept.

[MathOfInsects]

I'm coming around to ReezeKeys' point of view on this. The goal is really about whatever gives the (obviously inexperienced) player the confidence to do his or her best, rather than necessarily what's "right." I'd switch the order of priority to say, run the mic, do the DI as an ACTUAL just-in-case, and that way if and when the mic ruins the mix for them, you have a way still to do your job to your best ability.

[Ledbetter]

If he"s wrong, Darwin will step in and the venue or the audience will tell him he sounds like cr*p. Either he will learn from that, and do some research and rethink, or not. Space will be made for a better player if not. If he learns from it so much the better. Every player deserves to be heard for what they are. It is not the sound engineer"s job to teach an instrumentalist how to work their equipment.

[cphollis]

To be completely fair, miking a Rhodes or Wurli through a guitar amp can sound pretty good. Yes, the amp colors the sound in a good way, and there's a bit of pleasant compression between speaker and microphone. I wouldn't want to play APs through a rig like that.

[Piktor]

To be completely fair, miking a Rhodes or Wurli through a guitar amp can sound pretty good. Yes, the amp colors the sound in a good way, and there's a bit of pleasant compression between speaker and microphone. I wouldn't want to play APs through a rig like that.

 

It is common knowledge that organ and certain synth sounds can sound good through guitar amp too, if that is what the player is going for. I suspect that telling the guitar player that you were going to take direct line instead of placing a mic in front of his amp would be a hard sell, though this may not be the effect that this keys player is going for. Dialogueâ¦.

[Reezekeys]

A "rhodes or wurly through a guitar amp" being a preferred sound is very different from what the op is about. "It's made of wood designed to make it sound more like a real piano", remember?

[Steve Nathan]

I'm going to stick my neck out here. It's my belief that the sound guy's/gal's job is to bring the sounds the musicians want, out to the audience. If a singer likes the way their voice sounds through a 57, it's not your job to force them to use a 47. If the drummer prefers his snare tuned low, it's not your job to tell him to tighten the lugnuts. If this keys player wants to mike his amp, mike his amp.

[El Lobo]

It is not the sound engineer"s job to teach an instrumentalist how to work their equipment.

If this keys player wants to mike his amp, mike his amp.

Although I can accept this point of view, I respectfully suggest that the sound engineer's job is to work the FOH equipment and to get the best sound out to the audience. On the other hand, if the keys player wants to mike his amp and the resulting sound is crap, I can go with miking the keys player's amp and having the sound be crap.

 

Ideally though, if I was the sound engineer I would want to offer the choice and allow the keys player to hear the 2 options, then it's his/her choice and be done with it.

[Reezekeys]

If you walk into someone's gig and hear a band through a PA that's well-mixed and sounds pretty good, except that the keyboard sounds like crap - you're probably gonna think "that keyboard player sounds like crap", or "that keyboard player has a crappy keyboard", not "that sound engineer doesn't know how to do their job." If the sound engineer doesn't know what they're doing and everything sounds sub-par, then a mic vs. a DI on the keys probably won't make much difference. I also concur with Steve; even though my main point was more like "why bother, mic the amp, the guy's oblivious", I also believe that there are many times when a musician makes an informed decision about the best way to get his or her sound out to an audience â and that decision should be respected without question, unless there are logistical reasons it can't be implemented.

[El Lobo]

I also believe that there are many times when a musician makes an informed decision about the best way to get his or her sound out to an audience â and that decision should be respected without question, unless there are logistical reasons it can't be implemented.

There are also times when musicians think they know the best way to get their sound out to an audience, but they are quite wrong. The argument being made here seems to be let them be wrong and sound engineers should not do their job to get the best sound out to the audience.

[Pa Gherkin]

I"d really like to know what this magical amp is that makes a DP sound more like a 'real piano'. I"m with Steve Nathan. Give the guy what he wants and if it stinks it"s on him. If it turns out great,terrific.

[Reezekeys]

I also believe that there are many times when a musician makes an informed decision about the best way to get his or her sound out to an audience â and that decision should be respected without question, unless there are logistical reasons it can't be implemented.

There are also times when musicians think they know the best way to get their sound out to an audience, but they are quite wrong. The argument being made here seems to be let them be wrong and sound engineers should not do their job to get the best sound out to the audience.

Absolutely, the person described in the OP is wrong, and I did say "there are many times when a musician makes an informed decision about the best way to get his or her sound out to an audience" which is clearly not the case here. According to the original post, the idea of going direct was presented to him, and he rejected it. I say let the guy fail. Hopefully a few people will tell him how his sound sucked and why didn't he go direct. This can be a great learning experience if you have the humility to accept it as such. I speak from personal experience! My initial response was just acknowledging what looks like the kind of situation not worth arguing about. It's one gig.

[Baggypants]

Absolutely, the person described in the OP is wrong, and I did say "there are many times when a musician makes an informed decision about the best way to get his or her sound out to an audience" which is clearly not the case here. According to the original post, the idea of going direct was presented to him, and he rejected it. I say let the guy fail. Hopefully a few people will tell him how his sound sucked and why didn't he go direct. This can be a great learning experience if you have the humility to accept it as such. I speak from personal experience! My initial response was just acknowledging what looks like the kind of situation not worth arguing about. It's one gig.

 

It'll probably sound fine if the amp isn't a total dogegg and the mic and PA are quality. We've got pretty good at making things sound... 'pretty good' in the 21st Century even with weird audio routing. It's not like we're still kicking around Carlsbro and Peavey stuff from 1992. I went to a cricket match with a live band between innings. The only thing I could hear, being in the top tier stand and side on to the stage, was the drums and the lead guitarist who mic'ed through the amp, so if OP is setting PA up for a cricket match then maybe it'll help?

[Reezekeys]

Right, a mike on an amp doesn't have to sound horrible although it's way more likely to be used on a guitar or bass amp because you want the amp sound - unlike a DP doing an acoustic piano, where you probably don't want the amp sound. But more to the point, a mic is just as easy if not easier to set up than a DI box. Make it easy. One or two sets and it's history, right? The keyboardist will be happy you did it his way, and Joe & Jane Q public most likely won't know or care that the piano doesn't sound that great. A decent mic, in front of a decent amp, and it should be good enough. This is not the hill worth dying on, imo.

[MikeT156]

What works in a band context is different than doing a SOLO act as I did when I got tired of band break ups and others that caught "Star Syndrome" in a duo, which was the last effort I made before going solo. Being a Solo act and ending up in large rooms playing to larger crowns required a real PA system I've been my own roadie for a long time. I didn't have to be concerned about stepping on a bass player's territory, I WAS the band. Got a Workstation class Synth, a rack case full of PA equipment, 2 PA speaker cabinet's,and a sore back if I had to do a one-night stand. My last set of PA speakers for doing shows were a set of PV-SP2's with f5" speakers with 4" voice coils. Great sound and lighter than my JBL KB cabinets.

 

Mike T.

[Steve Nathan]

Right or wrong are subjective opinions. I've worked with many of the world's greatest engineers, and many of the world's worst engineers. Even in the upper middle of that spectrum, I've seen engineers who are solely focused on their opinion of what "good" is, often without ANY consideration of what the band's intentions are. I sat in as a guest on a class at a top audio school once. In studio with live musicians, and the engineer/teacher spent 2 hours talking to his students about what the best mike is for this or that instrument. He talked at length about how you should try to may the best of what you had though. If a cello sounds best with a 251 and. you only have an MXL piece of crap, use your ears to try and get the most you can out of the MXL. That sounds reasonable, I suppose. At the end when he asked for questions, he got to me, & I noted that at no time did he teach his students to first talk to the musicians. What kind of band would they be recording. Folk Rock? Punk? Metal? It should be obvious that the "Best Mike" for an instrument depends entirely on what the musician wants that instrument to sound like. Maybe the MXL IS the right mike for a Punk Cello

I know the situation in the OP is probably not this, but my point is that too many Sound people fail to understand one simple fact. The audience is there to hear the music! Absolutely no one has come hoping to hear a great snare EQ. Your job is to deliver, not to dictate.

[montunoman]

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to sound issues myself so I've probably made just as dumb request as this guy. Just be nice, explain how it normally done. It sounds like he just doesn't know better. Maybe if there's time, show him how it would sound with the mic vs direct. Let him go out and hear for himself. I am sure he'll make the right choice.