Records!!!!! Yes, the vinyl ones...

[Dave Bryce]

I've been resisting the vinyl thing for years. I got rid of my records decades ago - was one of the first to embrace the CD revolution. Haven’t had much to do with records or record players for...well, way too long.

 

That changed recently. One of my dear friends started posting about hiw he was consciously listening to his old collection, one per day and it made me nostalgic...so I bought a turntable and a few new LPs.

 

OMG...

 

I sat all day yesterday in my studio with the thing plugged in and cranked up. My studio is treated, has two nice sound systems and I have a set of Audeze LCD-X headphones wired in there. Let's just say it was difficult to get me out of that room yesterday.

 

What a sound. Man, I missed that...and can I just say (and I'm certainly not the first to do so) how digestible an LP is from a time POV? ~20 minutes? No problem.

 

I went through a couple sides of Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, Masque, Boston, Tarkus, The Completion Backwards Principle and Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac.

I feel so much like an old friend returned...

 

dB

[Anderton]

Which turntable did you get? And do they still make those thingies you moisten, then drag across the LP, to get rid of dust?

 

I have a theory as to why some people prefer vinyl - it has nothing to do with vinyl, but with the limitations that vinyl forced on mastering. You couldn't have caricatures of sound, the way you can with the way (some) people master for digital.

 

In the early days of CDs, the results were often just taken from a record's master tape, and sounded pretty darn good. Well, except for all the CD players that used 12-bit converters under the hood (which meant you were ending up with about 10 bits of true resolution).

 

I have a ton of vinyl in storage, can't decide what to do with it...I'll probably be selective and keep the records that don't have CD equivalents, and sell the rest.

[Dave Bryce]

Which turntable did you get?

Canadian company called Fluance. Their RT-85. Belt drive, of course...

 

 

And do they still make those thingies you moisten, then drag across the LP, to get rid of dust?

Yes, and I got one. And a weight to sit on the record and hold it to the platter better.

 

I find I quite dislike the sound of used records - too much pop, click, scratch. I suspect that's a blessing that will make me very selective about which records I buy.

 

 

I have a theory as to why some people prefer vinyl - it has nothing to do with vinyl, but with the limitations that vinyl forced on mastering. You couldn't have caricatures of sound, the way you can with the way (some) people master for digital.

 

Makes sense.

 

Not sure I "prefer" the records...but they definitely have a different sound which I find appeals to me on a deeply emotional level.

 

In the early days of CDs, the results were often just taken from a record's master tape, and sounded pretty darn good. Well, except for all the CD players that used 12-bit converters under the hood (which meant you were ending up with about 10 bits of true resolution).

Thank goodness that passed pretty quickly...

 

 

I have a ton of vinyl in storage, can't decide what to do with it...I'll probably be selective and keep the records that don't have CD equivalents, and sell the rest.

When was the last time you played a record? Do you have a turntable set up?

 

Got any unopened Mandrake LPs for a brother?

 

dB

[Greg Mein]

I have probably 100 records still and my wife also has a few. She actually bought me a record player at Christmas and I played a couple but then we returned it because I discovered the latch that holds the arm was broken. I had wanted to hold off until we were moved and settled anyway. I hope that before the end of the year I'll be in a position where I can unpack those (and a lot of other stuff) and revisit those old records in more depth.

[Mike Rivers]

I listen to my records occasionally. I never got rid of the records, turntables, or preamp/receivers with an RIAA equalized input. Just drop the needle and drop my butt on the couch for 20 minutes or so. Clicks and pops don't bother me, it's all part of the experience - not that I'd miss them if they were gone. There's a lot of good software to clean up noisy records, but then you'll end up with a WAV file, and where's the fun in that?

 

I have a theory as to why some people prefer vinyl - it has nothing to do with vinyl, but with the limitations that vinyl forced on mastering. You couldn't have caricatures of sound, the way you can with the way (some) people master for digital.

 

What a great way of putting it - "caricatures of sound." In the vinyl days (pre-Beatles, anyway), engineers didn't use a compressor to "warm up" a sound or otherwise introduce some form of distortion that's a side-effect of the box intended to control dynamics. Tracking had the goal of sounding like it did in the studio, and mastering was to make sure the grooves would fit on the record. A little bit of tweaking at the mastering stage wasn't uncommon, but it was because the mastering houses had the best reverbs, the best equalizers, and the best limiters. But these tools were used for making small changes, not creating a sound that the engineer/producer never thought of, or only dreamed about having the gadget that did that.

 

Today sounds that never came out of an instrument go into a mix that then needs a lot of help afterward to sort out all the junk. So that's what mastering is today. It was a trick to fit 25 minutes of music with dynamics on to a side of an LP and that's what we hear when you play the phonograph record.

[KuruPrionz]

I listen to my records occasionally. I never got rid of the records, turntables, or preamp/receivers with an RIAA equalized input. Just drop the needle and drop my butt on the couch for 20 minutes or so. Clicks and pops don't bother me, it's all part of the experience - not that I'd miss them if they were gone. There's a lot of good software to clean up noisy records, but then you'll end up with a WAV file, and where's the fun in that?

 

I have a theory as to why some people prefer vinyl - it has nothing to do with vinyl, but with the limitations that vinyl forced on mastering. You couldn't have caricatures of sound, the way you can with the way (some) people master for digital.

 

What a great way of putting it - "caricatures of sound." In the vinyl days (pre-Beatles, anyway), engineers didn't use a compressor to "warm up" a sound or otherwise introduce some form of distortion that's a side-effect of the box intended to control dynamics. Tracking had the goal of sounding like it did in the studio, and mastering was to make sure the grooves would fit on the record. A little bit of tweaking at the mastering stage wasn't uncommon, but it was because the mastering houses had the best reverbs, the best equalizers, and the best limiters. But these tools were used for making small changes, not creating a sound that the engineer/producer never thought of, or only dreamed about having the gadget that did that.

 

Today sounds that never came out of an instrument go into a mix that then needs a lot of help afterward to sort out all the junk. So that's what mastering is today. It was a trick to fit 25 minutes of music with dynamics on to a side of an LP and that's what we hear when you play the phonograph record.

 

That's one version anyway. Glad All Over by the Dave Clark Five is an example of another story. That was released in the early days of the Beatles, back when the men in white coats dictated levels.

Glad All Over is pretty distorted, all of it. Somebody was pushing it well into the red intentionally to get a "sound" and it worked, at least for that one song.

 

That said, I do like the way vinyl records sound for the most part. And CDs make me grit my teeth if I listen closely. If I play them in one room while I am in another, they are pretty OK.

No vinyl or turntables left here, I am slowly making space and that stuff all takes up quite a bit of it. No regrets, it's pretty rare that I listen to music unless I am fiddling about with recording or it's one of those rare nights when somebody I want to hear is playing and I am not booked somewhere else. With my own band I have my earplugs in tight, we are too loud for me to enjoy. Listening back to recordings, I still play and sing just like me so I'll continue to protect what's left of my hearing.

 

So, live music at a reasonable volume is my first choice for listening. MP3s or YouTube is probably my least favorite.

[MAJUSCULE]

While I'm not a full-on audiophile vinyl hipster, I have been loosely collecting records since I was about 14.

 

I was barely alive for the end of the cassette era, grew up mostly on CDs, and of course use various streaming services in various capacities. Honestly, while I do sometimes try to shift my listening habits in one way or another, I'm happy I still have a variety of systems to listen to music. Each of them is a very different experience, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Regarding used vinyl, a big part of the attraction for me is listening to things that either aren't available online (and there are plenty, despite the size of streaming libraries), or also things that I maybe wouldn't usually reach for when there is such an immensity of choice. That's how I first listened to VH's 1984 all the way through, a friend left her copy at my place and I ended up spinning it a bunch and building a totally new appreciation for them.

[nursers]

I too am a vinyl collector, but only kicked it off 6-8 years ago. I have around 550 in my collection at present and love it. I grew up with cassettes and the only vinyl I dealt with were my parents or grandparents' Richard Clayderman records

[spokenward]

(Edit)Which turntable did you get? And do they still make those thingies you moisten, then drag across the LP, to get rid of dust?(edit)

 

 

The Discwasher system. There was a whole roll-up of legacy audio brands that came together in the 90s and early 2000s. Declining retail outlets and the dark ages for the vinyl business combined to send a handful of accessory companies through a series of owners. I think Voxx (formerly Audiovox owns them now).

 

The carbon fiber brushes that are available now have pretty much replaced the category.

[KuruPrionz]

While I'm not a full-on audiophile vinyl hipster, I have been loosely collecting records since I was about 14.

 

I was barely alive for the end of the cassette era, grew up mostly on CDs, and of course use various streaming services in various capacities. Honestly, while I do sometimes try to shift my listening habits in one way or another, I'm happy I still have a variety of systems to listen to music. Each of them is a very different experience, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Regarding used vinyl, a big part of the attraction for me is listening to things that either aren't available online (and there are plenty, despite the size of streaming libraries), or also things that I maybe wouldn't usually reach for when there is such an immensity of choice. That's how I first listened to VH's 1984 all the way through, a friend left her copy at my place and I ended up spinning it a bunch and building a totally new appreciation for them.

 

My brother brought home the most off-the-beaten-path albums that he could find at Tower records about 50 years ago. Bearing in mind Tower was mostly flogging the top 40 radio of the time and in Fresno both Rock/Pop and Country but they were successful enough to indulge in a section devoted to other music. Brother brought home Tibetian Chants, Story songs accompanied by mbira and a chorus from Kenya, Turkish Village Music, Miles Davis, John Coltrane and Pharaoh Sanders Live in Seattle, Sun Ra, Charlie Mingus - so much amazing music that I'd never heard or heard of, all on vinyl records.

 

I am a very different musician because of him and he did not play for squat. But he knew...

[Mike Rivers]

Glad All Over by the Dave Clark Five is an example of another story. That was released in the early days of the Beatles, back when the men in white coats dictated levels.

 

Glad All Over is pretty distorted, all of it. Somebody was pushing it well into the red intentionally to get a "sound" and it worked, at least for that one song.

 

James Brown records were always distorted. It was a (conscious) product of the meter on the the Ampex 300 recorder hitting the pin constantly and saturating the Scotch 201 tape. They knew the sound they wanted to get and that's how they got it.

 

THIS IS NOT "THE SOUND OF TAPE" by any means. It's creative engineers presenting the sound of a powerful singer.

[KuruPrionz]

Glad All Over by the Dave Clark Five is an example of another story. That was released in the early days of the Beatles, back when the men in white coats dictated levels.

 

Glad All Over is pretty distorted, all of it. Somebody was pushing it well into the red intentionally to get a "sound" and it worked, at least for that one song.

 

James Brown records were always distorted. It was a (conscious) product of the meter on the the Ampex 300 recorder hitting the pin constantly and saturating the Scotch 201 tape. They knew the sound they wanted to get and that's how they got it.

 

THIS IS NOT "THE SOUND OF TAPE" by any means. It's creative engineers presenting the sound of a powerful singer.

 

No, it is "ONE" sound made by using an analog tape recording system. Transformers and other components added saturation to the mix as well.

Yes, James Brown and there were others that I simply cannot think of.

Do You Love Me by the Contours isn't exactly a clean recording, neither is You Really Got Me by the Kinks.

 

And it was one way to make a louder sounding record. Amongst many and probably late in the game, the Rolling Stones kept their albums and singles fairly short so the grooves in the records could be cut a little deeper. Probably came out just a tad louder on the radio. We still listened to records on the radio back then. I was a huge fan of Motown when I was about 8-12 years old and still am.

[RABid]

Long ago I lost over 500 LP's when my parent's basement flooded. Thought I was out of it for good but a few years ago I won a cheap record player at Gearfest, then I went to a vendors mall and bought a few used LP's, then,,,

 

My great nephew, in college, is also into vinyl and I am sure he will grab what records I have left when I pass on. I too was an early adopter of CD but remember how bad they sounded before engineers learned to mix for digital. All brittle and thin. I had a very early Fleetwood Mac CD, and the same title done 15 years later. Wow, what a difference. Strange, when I think about the loss of my LP collection it is not the music that I miss, but the artwork and liner notes.

[Chip McDonald]

The funny thing about distortion is that nobody apparently realizes *the consumer is the last part of the recording chain*. It never seems to occur to "hi fi" enthusiasts to buy the same kind of gear found in a studio; they're in a state of cognitive dissonance over liking the melange of non-linearity and distortion record cartridges>amplifier stage>RIAA equalization (nobody ever talks about that...?)>input stage>eq stage (*Baxandall extremes, or corner frequency ringing)>big old school transistor push pull output stage (*slew rate, variable *damping factor)>variable impedance curve speakers>non-linear crossover points, filter muxing, ringing, unintentional low/high passing>3 different drivers with non-linear impedance curves, response curves, overlapping comb filtering, group weirdness> box design concessions, resonance, port non-linearity, non-linear dipole effects>room coupling non-linearity....

People like witnessing chaos.

 

 

Record players add non-linearity and distortion *to taste*, just as driving a Neve or an 1176 does. The consumer is unwittingly completing the recording chain, whether it's with a vinyl record playback system, poorly designed car subwoofers, or by setting speakers in the corners of the room.

[Chip McDonald]

 

James Brown records were always distorted. It was a (conscious) product of the meter on the the Ampex 300 recorder hitting the pin constantly and saturating the Scotch 201 tape. They knew the sound they wanted to get and that's how they got it.

 

 

 

I'd suggest a lot of what happened around Mr. Brown musically or sonically, was partially the result of the chaos or fear that always accompanied him.

[Anderton]

I think a lot of the desire for vinyl depends on the material. To my ears, classical music on CD sounds so much better than vinyl.

 

RIAA equalization (nobody ever talks about that...?)

 

I do! Like in the "Hi-Res Audio...So What?" seminar. Which, for some reason, generated far less controversy than I expected.

 

[video:youtube]

[Anderton]

One aspect about "the sound of tape" was that so much of it depended on the alignment. With classical projects I tended to overbias a bit to minimize the distortion, and made up for the diminished highs with EQ. But different engineers biased and EQed the tape differently, and that really WAS the sound of tape, because you were altering how the tape responded. Other media didn't have the same qualities.

 

Hey vinylrenaissanceguy Dave - weren't you really into SACD at one point? I still think they sounded better than CDs, but who knows...maybe it was the prep work that was done to masters reissued on SACD. I guess DSD streaming is probably never going to happen.

[Dave Bryce]

I think a lot of the desire for vinyl depends on the material. To my ears, classical music on CD sounds so much better than vinyl.

Funny you should say that...

 

I got my first new LP with an orchestra yesterday. It's Snarky Puppy's Sylva, which - up until yesterday - I had never heard on vinyl before, only digital (another first for me).

 

Frankly, the distortion and reduced dynamic range caught me by surpise on a few of the parts, and I missed a touch of clarity on other parts.

The (Red) Beatles 1962-1966 collection OTOH was beyond wonderful.

 

dB

[RABid]

So what is your favorite album covers? Mine are Led Zeppelin III with the rotating wheel, and the first Santana with the lion costume with hidden faces.

[Doerfler]

So what is your favorite album covers? Mine are is Led Zeppelin III with the rotating wheel,

 

Bought it (again) about 18 months ago just for the cover. Never been played.

[KuruPrionz]

So what is your favorite album covers? Mine are Led Zeppelin III with the rotating wheel, and the first Santana with the lion costume with hidden faces.

 

 

Weasels Ripped My Flesh by Frank Zappa and the Mothers Of Invention. Classic, too hideous!!

[harmonizer]

The liner notes that came with some LPs were sometimes a joy to read, or sometimes were interesting in that they reflected how either the artist or the record company wanted to artist to be seen. The liner notes for Steely Dan's Aja were an example. I have about 120 LPs, most of them reflecting what I liked as a teenager. There are some some LPs which are my only copy of those songs. When I want to play my bari sax along with the Gerry Mulligan LP of his Carnegie Hall concert, I play the LP. I kept the turntable I owned in college, and about 5 years ago bought a new cartridge for it, to restore it to operating condition. My son is a music education major and used my turntable to listen to some jazz LPs from my collection to complete a jazz listening assignment (Toshiki Akiyoshi / Lew Tabackin big band, Thad Jones / Mel Lewis, and Kind of Blue). I'm glad he has an appreciation for some old things.

[Anderton]

The liner notes that came with some LPs were sometimes a joy to read, or sometimes were interesting in that they reflected how either the artist or the record company wanted to artist to be seen.

 

Yes, albums were more than just a shiny disc...

 

My son is a music education major and used my turntable to listen to some jazz LPs from my collection to complete a jazz listening assignment (Toshiki Akiyoshi / Lew Tabackin big band, Thad Jones / Mel Lewis, and Kind of Blue). I'm glad he has an appreciation for some old things.

 

A lot of people aren't even aware of the great music of the swing era. I must admit, I had to seek it out...it's not like that kind of appreciation was "baked in." But I was blown away by Artie Shaw. IMHO the Eric Clapton of the clarinet.

 

We can learn a lot by listening to what came way before us. That includes some of the blues stuff from the 20s or 30s...awesome...

 

"When the Levee Breaks" is public domain. Why let Zep have all the fun?

[nursers]

Dammit dB you just made me buy a Fluance turntable

[BMD]

I've often thought about revisiting my youth by going down the vinyl route, but a few things put me off.

 

A good turntable is fiendishly expensive and vinyl records are hideously overpriced.

 

CDs sound better than vinyl. They just do.

 

A vinyl LP won't fit through a letterbox. A CD will.

 

To that end I've decided to look at various 'Top 100 Albums of All Time' lists and buy a CD every fortnight or so, thereby building up a collection of 'essential' listening. I've begun with 'Funeral' by Arcade Fire. £4.50 off Ebay. Brand new with free P&P. Can't beat that.

 

(I sold all of my vinyl LPs to a DJ about 25 years ago. Can't say I miss them)

 

 

Edit: CDs tend to come with a booklet, so it's liner notes plus! And I prefer a physical product. Streaming doesn't do it for me. That's one thing vinyl and CD guys can agree on at any rate...

[Dave Bryce]

Dammit dB you just made me buy a Fluance turntable

You won"t be sorry...it"s like having an old friend come home.

I bought Animals, Shiek Yerbouti, Machine Head, Wired and Kind Of Blue yesterday.

 

dB

[The Real MC]

Can't say I share the renaissance in vinyl records.

 

My experience with records was miserable. By the time I could afford to buy my own music in ~1981, the quality of records had gone to the pits. There were too many times I would buy a defective record that had a skip and returned it to the music store for one that didn't have defects. Some records were warped out of the box. Granted, vinyl had been replaced with plastic whose quality was a lot lower. I had to return Toto IV four times until I got one without defects! And I didn't live close to the record store. The experience put me off records for good, I only ever owned a handful of them. They were lost in the divorce and I don't miss them. Never bought albums on cassette either, that sound quality is worse than records.

 

By 1985, CDs were on the market. I was a poor college student but I immediately saw the value of a format that was far more reliable than records and cassettes. As my income got better I started my CD collection and never looked back. I pretty much have all the releases I would want, and my CDs number in the 600 range. I ripped my favorite songs to mp3s, and the portability is liberating. I tire of ripping and archiving audio files, it's very infrequent anymore that I add to my CD collection.

 

I find it curious the current rage over vinyl records. I laugh when I see new ones selling for three times back in my day. Besides pressing the sleeve and the disc - WHERE'S THE PRODUCTION EXPENSE TO JUSTIFY $30 FOR A RE-RELEASED ALBUM? There ISN'T ANY! Sorry, I don't share the fascination over vinyl format, I'm never abandoning the CD format, and I'm no damn fool to part that kind of money for a product with zero production expense.

 

Notice I did not say that records have inferior sound. I don't deny that the sound of records appeal to people. Being an engineer, I read the National Semiconductor Audio Design Handbook from the early 1980s that described the reproduction techniques for a stylus needle on a record, and I find it a cantankerous playback system. It has its audio flaws, but imperfections can be a good thing. It's a subjective thing, and they don't appeal to me. I have a lot of $$$ into my CD collection, and I'm not replacing them with another format.

[Anderton]

My experience with records was miserable. By the time I could afford to buy my own music in ~1981, the quality of records had gone to the pits.

 

I'm with you 100%. When records went to recycled vinyl, it was almost impossible to get decent pressings. I wonder what vinyl today's records are using?

 

FWIW the vinyl renaissance doesn't seem to be going away. Martha Davis wanted to do a vinyl version of a new album, and was told by the people she normally uses that they could schedule her in maybe 21 weeks from now, they're that backordered.

 

I pretty much have all the releases I would want, and my CDs number in the 600 range. I ripped my favorite songs to mp3s, and the portability is liberating. I tire of ripping and archiving audio files, it's very infrequent anymore that I add to my CD collection.

 

That more or less describes my situation. I have a great library of CDs that are of (mostly) the same quality as the original masters, and because I own the music, I can rip as desired.

 

I'm never abandoning the CD format...I have a lot of $$$ into my CD collection, and I'm not replacing them with another format.

 

Well, CDs are abandoning us. It's hard to even find something to play it back. Here's an experiment for you: Make a CD of your music, then see who you know from the normal world who can actually play it back. Streaming has taken over, with people playing music over computer speakers. It's the Gresham's Law of audio

 

There's definitely a certain romance to records, they're overall a far more sensual experience than CDs or streaming. I can understand why they appeal to people who missed vinyl the first time around (if you're under 40, you didn't really experience a world without digital audio), or are re-visiting it. The irony is that if I have to time to listen to music, then I have time to make my own, and that's my preference.

[spokenward]

FWIW the vinyl renaissance doesn't seem to be going away. Martha Davis wanted to do a vinyl version of a new album, and was told by the people she normally uses that they could schedule her in maybe 21 weeks from now, they're that backordered.

 

The backorder situation is affected by more than just the regrowth of the vinyl industry. There was a catastrophic fire at a domestic lacquer facility last year that has affected scheduling.

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/vinyl-industry-apollo-masters-fire-951903/

 

(Edit: At least one publication claims that it is not affecting production, but doesn't go into detail. https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-309-sme-model-6-turntable-sculpture-a3l-phono-cartridge).

 

Along with the AKM fire it was a tragic year for high end audio.

 

https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/business/akm-factory-fire-shakes-up-pro-audio-industry

[RABid]

For all the joy that LP's bring they are still very fragile. I still remember clearly the day I went to my best friends house and saw the 10 LP's I loaned him sitting in the floor, stacked without the covers. I didn't say a lot but I'm guessing the look on my face expressed my displeasure. He had promised to take care of them and keep them in the jackets, and then... I never loaned my records to anyone again.