Small amp, huge cab?

[zeronyne]

Through a little luck and serendipity, I ended up acquiring something I never ever thought I would own but always secretly wanted. I own a 4x12' slant cab (Peavey 5150). There is just no logical reason for me to have one, but I love it. So despite being a modeling kind of person, I thought why not just go full midlife crisis and get a head for this cab.

 

So here is my question, and keep in mind I"m talking about tube watts. What is the major difference I"m going to hear in my basement between a 50 watt head and a 100 watt head, all other things being equal. 1 more db at the top? More saturation? Nothing?

[Mark Schmieder]

Sure; My Mesa Prodigy is 100% tube (power and preamp stages), is tiny, yet sits atop a rather large Mesa 15" speaker cabinet.

 

In the guitar department, my Orange Dual Terror mini-amp head sits atop a large vertical 2x12 Orange cabinet.

[Mark Schmieder]

Really, what you care about is matching the impedance. There's not much difference between a 50 watt and 100 watt head in terms of cabinet compatibility. More headroom, mostly.

[desertbluesman]

So here is my question, and keep in mind I"m talking about tube watts. What is the major difference I"m going to hear in my basement between a 50 watt head and a 100 watt head, all other things being equal. 1 more db at the top? More saturation? Nothing?

 

It all depends on how you play and what you want out of the amp. The 50 watter will go into overdrive at slightly lower volumes. the hundred watter will have more clean headroom but the differences will be minor not major. Tone will be similar if the amps are the same brand and of a similar model with similar tone stacks.

[KuruPrionz]

The real question here is, do you want to be way too loud or louder than that?

 

In your basement, you will kill vermin with either 50 or 100 watts, any critter that does not get away quickly will simply die and eventually start to smell funny.

 

Because neither of those wattages will sound their best until you cause severe hearing damage. In an enclosed space the change in air pressure will be tremendous.

You probably won't squeeze your brains out of your nose, you'll need an Ampeg SVT dual cab set up for that.

 

Back when I did the half stack thing, I ran a Mesa Boogie IIIc Simul-Class head in Class A mode, which was 15 watts or so. Even at an outdoor gig it was deafeningly loud. It sounded great at that volume, no denying it. It didn't sound anywhere near as good at lower volumes because the output stages were not being pushed and that is where the "juicy" tube tone comes from.

 

If you plug a stock silver face Fender Champ amp into your cab and dime it, you will be astonished at what 5 watts can do with 4-12" speakers. It will still be really loud and it will sound fantastic because you will really be pushing the output stage beyond it's design parameters. Plus, only 2 tubes to change when they fry. If you are lucky the tubes will give out before you smell the yellow smoke.

 

Been there, done that, not kidding. Somehow, I still have enough hearing to be useful. I did my share of damage though and I don't recommend it at all.

 

If you can find a tube amp that is about one half of one watt, that will be perfect and louder than you think. Matching impedance is just a matter of having the correct output transformer and/or taps. Not a big deal as long as you do it.

[Larryz]

If I had to choose between a 50 watt and a 100 tube watt amp head to play in the basement, I would go with a 25 LoL! 50 watts will be all you need for an outdoor or indoor venue, but it can be turned down to play with in the basement. Assuming you are going to take it out for large venue gigs, I would go with the 50. If playing normal size venue gigs and for playing in the basement, I would go with a 25.

[Winston Psmith]

Like everyone else is saying, the power output of the Amp is more of an issue than the size of the Speaker Cabinet, and, in a small room, or even a small club, 100 Watts is just overkill. In your basement, that 100 Watt head is going to be louder than you probably need or want, while the 50 Watt head is likely to give a nice "brown sound" at lower levels.

 

Have fun with that big Cab!

[wraub]

My recently acquired amp is switchable between 50 watts, 25 watts, or .5 watts. When I got it, I very briefly tried it at 50 and 25 just to see... It lives at .5 watts and it's plenty loud, still too loud at some settings.

It has one 12 inch speaker, a 4x12 would be dangerous in my space.

[KuruPrionz]

Just so everybody understands the math, 50 watts is NOT half as loud as 100 watts. In theory, you need 1/10th the wattage to be half as loud. Speaker efficiency blows the theory, 10 watts is not half as loud as 100 watts using the same cab but it is certainly less loud. Wraub is using a Boss Katana, I have one too. I have had it set to .5 (1/2 of one watt) for every gig except one outdoor gig where it was windy. It's been plenty of volume but more importantly, it starts to sound like an amp that is turned up without blowing your face off or causing deafness.

 

Hence my mention of a stock Fender Champ which is somewhere around 5-7 watts and really loud through a 4/12 cabinet. There is a reason why so many amp attenuators are in use.

 

There are some tiny tube amps on the market if one searches.

[Larryz]

My Fender Twin put out 85 watts and would blow the doors off any Fender Deluxe at 22 watts and sounds about 5 times as loud LoL! I never ran the volume past 4 in any large venue or outdoor gig on the Twin. For me it's more about protecting your ears in a basement no matter how many watts you're running. My new Fender Deluxe SS amp is 100 watts to simulate the 22 tube watts of the original (according to Fender). It has an output power switch that allows me to choose between 0.2, 0.5, 1, 5, 12 and 22 watts. I play it in a bedroom 99% of the time and it is always on 1 watt and the volume level set at 3 1/2...you can always adjust the guitar volume too, depending on the pups, pedals, etc., that you are using.

 

For me, the biggest issue when choosing an amp, speakers, cabs, etc., is based upon weight as I have a bad back. My 2 tubers run 55lbs and 40lbs and put out 50 watts and 40watts. You can't really do the math that way when choosing between 100 watts and 50 watts as there are many 15 watt tube amps that weigh in at 40lbs. I prefer the 112 amps and really like the lighter neodymium Jensen N-12K speaker that came with my Deluxe tone master amp weighing in at 24lbs. Picking the best sounding amp between the 100 and 50 and any other watt amp that will run the speaker cab, would be a primary concern along with what the amp and cab will be used for. I have a little SS Z 112 100 watt amp that warns users to insure that any extension speaker hooked up to it's output jack, is rated for 100 watts? Don't ask me how to figure it out wattage wise, so I just don't hook up an extension speaker LoL! My little Roland EX4 Street Cube (10, 25, 50 watt) amp/PA at 16lbs gets the most travel use these days! Number one rule for me is: Protect Your Ears!

[zeronyne]

Thanks gents. I realize both 50 and 100 are impractical, which is probably why there are so many for sale used during COVID. I was just using those two numbers for reference. I always wear ear protection and I have an isobox for recording. This 4x12 is just to stand in front of and be bathed by distortion. I got it for $25, otherwise there would have been no justification to buy it.

[KuruPrionz]

My Fender Twin put out 85 watts and would blow the doors off any Fender Deluxe at 22 watts and sounds about 5 times as loud LoL! I never ran the volume past 4 in any large venue or outdoor gig on the Twin. For me it's more about protecting your ears in a basement no matter how many watts you're running. My new Fender Deluxe SS amp is 100 watts to simulate the 22 tube watts of the original (according to Fender). It has an output power switch that allows me to choose between 0.2, 0.5, 1, 5, 12 and 22 watts. I play it in a bedroom 99% of the time and it is always on 1 watt and the volume level set at 3 1/2...you can always adjust the guitar volume too, depending on the pups, pedals, etc., that you are using.

 

For me, the biggest issue when choosing an amp, speakers, cabs, etc., is based upon weight as I have a bad back. My 2 tubers run 55lbs and 40lbs and put out 50 watts and 40watts. You can't really do the math that way when choosing between 100 watts and 50 watts as there are many 15 watt tube amps that weigh in at 40lbs. I prefer the 112 amps and really like the lighter neodymium Jensen N-12K speaker that came with my Deluxe tone master amp weighing in at 24lbs. Picking the best sounding amp between the 100 and 50 and any other watt amp that will run the speaker cab, would be a primary concern along with what the amp and cab will be used for. I have a little SS Z 112 100 watt amp that warns users to insure that any extension speaker hooked up to it's output jack, is rated for 100 watts? Don't ask me how to figure it out wattage wise, so I just don't hook up an extension speaker LoL! My little Roland EX4 Street Cube (10, 25, 50 watt) amp/PA at 16lbs gets the most travel use these days! Number one rule for me is: Protect Your Ears!

 

 

It doesn't quite work that way, Sir Larryz. You have too many variables, some of them unknown. Using the same speakers can make a big difference, just for one. How the output transformer is wound is a big one, Fender used transformers that met certain specs but the tolerances were not real high sometimes and if they had orders to fill they would buy something that would work, build the amps and send them along. The condition of the caps, is the jack clean, same guitar etc. All of that can make a difference.

 

The tubes used is a HUGE one, so is the circuit they are responding to. Once, the output tubes in my RedPlate (a matched pair and fairly new) suddenly rebiased just before a New Years show. It went from being a loud, beautiful sounding amp to being weak and not so great in about 5 minutes. Once I got it home and rebiased correctly it sounded great again but I never felt like I could trust it (or tubes). Solid state amps are more consistent but typically are not as loud for rated wattage as tube amps.

 

The "to be twice as loud requires 10x the wattage" statement I made earlier came from a study I read decades ago, it was done by hi-fi weirdos who tried to eliminate as many variables as possible. Some of them cannot be eliminated, that is true.

Still, I've found that half a watt in my Katana running into the stock speaker is pretty darn loud. So is 1 watt on my Peavey Vypyr VIP3 when I choke down the output level.

 

Not arguing so much as stating my own experiences. Using the same 2 amps (three if we count the Red Stripe Studio Pro I had that went from 60 watts to 6) with the same speaker in each amp does eliminate some variables.

It's been my experience that I can make an amp terrifyingly loud by putting my JBL G125-8 in the cabinet - that is one efficient speaker!!!!! Cheers, Kuru

[Larryz]

I'm doing the same thing you are Kuru: "not arguing so much as stating my own experiences". I still use and have all of the amps I mentioned except the Twin. The guitars I use make a huge difference with lots of variables using the exact same amp at the same settings, speaker, caps, transformer, etc., i.e., removing all amp variables. I'm moving away from tubes just like you are but more for the weight of the amp than that of the tubers letting me down. I have tried different tubes and pretty much came back to using the Fender red Groove Tubes. My amps have always been re-biased when changing the matched power tubes (and knock on wood) they have always been dependable and roadworthy. The Hot Rod 410 DeVille is old and made in the USA and it was well worn when I bought it from a pro player who was selling it used. I put a few miles on it. Nothing worked harder than my Twin Reverb back in the day riding to gigs in the back of my 77 Chevy Step-side 4x4 which road like a buckboard over country roads in the middle of the night(s) LoL. I had to check the tubes each trip going and coming to be sure the 4 6L6 tubes were still in their sockets LoL! The little 12AX7's seldom came loose. I wish I still had that amp with the twin JBL's but it was just too heavy. I agree with your points and appreciate your experiences.

[Larryz]

Thanks gents. I realize both 50 and 100 are impractical, which is probably why there are so many for sale used during COVID. I was just using those two numbers for reference. I always wear ear protection and I have an isobox for recording. This 4x12 is just to stand in front of and be bathed by distortion. I got it for $25, otherwise there would have been no justification to buy it.

 

Glad to hear you are protecting those ears Zeronyne! You can't beat the amount of fun you will get out of that $25 bucks! Such a deal! If you can pickup a 50 or 100 watt head for cheap, you'll be way ahead of the game...I like about 25 tube watts with some reverb and like I say, go for the best sounding amp you can find. You can always turn the volume down if you need to. Good hunting and keep us posted when you find that amp!

[KuruPrionz]

I'm doing the same thing you are Kuru: "not arguing so much as stating my own experiences". I still use and have all of the amps I mentioned except the Twin. The guitars I use make a huge difference with lots of variables using the exact same amp at the same settings, speaker, caps, transformer, etc., i.e., removing all amp variables. I'm moving away from tubes just like you are but more for the weight of the amp than that of the tubers letting me down. I have tried different tubes and pretty much came back to using the Fender red Groove Tubes. My amps have always been re-biased when changing the matched power tubes (and knock on wood) they have always been dependable and roadworthy. The Hot Rod 410 DeVille is old and made in the USA and it was well worn when I bought it from a pro player who was selling it used. I put a few miles on it. Nothing worked harder than my Twin Reverb back in the day riding to gigs in the back of my 77 Chevy Step-side 4x4 which road like a buckboard over country roads in the middle of the night(s) LoL. I had to check the tubes each trip going and coming to be sure the 4 6L6 tubes were still in their sockets LoL! The little 12AX7's seldom came loose. I wish I still had that amp with the twin JBL's but it was just too heavy. I agree with your points and appreciate your experiences.

 

 

It is a weight thing for me too, Larryz! And solid state has gotten SO GOOD that I don't miss tubes at all. I've owned a buttload of Fenders but never a Twin. My favorite Fender was probably the late 50's Harvard, that amp sung with dimed and wasn't insanely loud. I had 9 Mesas at one point or another, an Allen Accomplice, a Red Plate Blues machine and more Kay, Silvertone, Supro (vintage) etc than you can shake a stick at.

I still have quite a stash of vintage tubes and a Hickok tester. I need to set up a station and start testing all my tubes so I can sell them.

 

I still have a couple of amps handbuilt by techs too - a converted hi-fi that is now a "clone" of the top cut channel of the original Vox AC 15 with an EF86 preamp tube. It sounds great but too loud. And I have a converted Hammond organ amp that is now a clone of a mid 50's Fender 5D3 Deluxe, with linked channels and one channel brighter than the other. That breaks up early and sounds sweet but I just don't need it and don't want to have a floor full of pedals to make up for either amp being just volume and tone.

 

The new amps have all the fun toys!!!! I picked up a Roland Micro Cube last month, LOVE that little thing. And yesterday at Goodwill I found a Blackstar iCore 20 stereo amp with no power supply for $8, in nearly new condition. I took the gamble, a power supply should be here Monday. That will be a fun little monster too.

 

PAs are much better now, it's easier to mic a small amp and keep my stage volume down. Less stuff to move around too. I'm not getting any younger at 65, time to lighten the load. Cheers, Kuru

[Mark Schmieder]

It's the Orange Dual Terror that opened my eyes and ears. I was living and working in Durham North Carolina for almost half a year due to no bites in the local job market here in NC, and joined a band where the lead guitarist had a no-longer-made Tiny Terror. The Dual Terror was the closest I could come to his sound. He used it with a typical Marshall 1960A slant-back 4x12, but I'm thrilled with my Orange vertical 2x12.

 

Once I have time to work on guitar recordings again (hopefully soon), I may find that between the Orange set, the Vox AC15HW, Fender Bassman LTD 4x10, Fender 65 Deluxe Reverb, and Fender 57 Champ Custom Shop, that I don't really need my Mesa Royal Atlantic 100 watt amp anymore with the 2x12 Rectifier cabinet. I actually end up using that mostly when recording local metal guitarists with whatever preferred head they bring along.

 

Anyway, the point is just that an all-tube amp with no solid state gain stages or digital modeling, can come in very light-weight and low-wattage these days, without sacrificing tone, dynamics, cleans, or grit.

 

I should have expected this to happen though, as Mesa's Prodigy Bass Head is tiny and light and yet is 100% tube-driven at the power stage and the pre-amp stage. So engineers are finding more ways to get good results with less weight, size, and wattage.

[Mark Schmieder]

Excellent point also about how smaller setups are easier for sound technicians to mic up at a gig if they want to capture the sound of the rig vs. taking a DI to the board.

[Larryz]

+1 on having a tube checker Kuru! I remember when we had to go to the nearest corner drug store to find a tube checker. My buddy has a real good stingy one that is way more accurate than the old dime store checkers. Hang on to that Hickok tester as it will be a collector's item some day. You can probably pickup some old throw away amps cheap or even free, check the tubes and put them back up for sale!

 

+1 Mark on crafting your sound and mic'ing it to the PA instead of a DI to the board.. You still have to go out in the audience to hear what they hear as some engineers may tweak your sound for you a little LoL!

[RABid]

Like wraub, my 100w amp came with a switch to choose between 100, 50 and .5 watts and I have kept mine on .5 for almost the entire time. Choose an amp with variable watt output.

[KuruPrionz]

+1 on having a tube checker Kuru! I remember when we had to go to the nearest corner drug store to find a tube checker. My buddy has a real good stingy one that is way more accurate than the old dime store checkers. Hang on to that Hickok tester as it will be a collector's item some day. You can probably pickup some old throw away amps cheap or even free, check the tubes and put them back up for sale!

 

+1 Mark on crafting your sound and mic'ing it to the PA instead of a DI to the board.. You still have to go out in the audience to hear what they hear as some engineers may tweak your sound for you a little LoL!

 

 

To be brutally honest, several times I've purchased old tube organs (NOT Hammonds!!!!) at thrift stores for stupid prices. Organs run at lower voltages than guitar amps and are much easier on tubes in general.

I gut them, dismantle and toss most of the cabinet and works and sell the amps and speakers online. Buyers convert them to guitar amps or swap in the speakers.

 

Once I found a Norelco Phillips tape recorder from Holland that had quite a few Amperex Bugle Boy ECC83 (12AX7) in it, those are highly regarded preamp tubes for guitar amps. You never know what you'll come across...

[Winston Psmith]

. . . (three if we count the Red Stripe Studio Pro I had that went from 60 watts to 6) . . .

 

@KuruPrionz - Forgive me for truncating the quote, but I have to ask - how did you switch the power on the Red Stripe? I have the same Amp, a U.S.-made Red Stripe Peavey Studio Pro 112, with the TransTube circuit. The Manual for mine says it's rated at 65 Watts RMS.

 

Not looking to attempt any conversion myself - with my skill level I'd turn a perfectly good Amp into an overlarge doorstop - but I'm curious, nonetheless.

[KuruPrionz]

. . . (three if we count the Red Stripe Studio Pro I had that went from 60 watts to 6) . . .

 

@KuruPrionz - Forgive me for truncating the quote, but I have to ask - how did you switch the power on the Red Stripe? I have the same Amp, a U.S.-made Red Stripe Peavey Studio Pro 112, with the TransTube circuit. The Manual for mine says it's rated at 65 Watts RMS.

 

Not looking to attempt any conversion myself - with my skill level I'd turn a perfectly good Amp into an overlarge doorstop - but I'm curious, nonetheless.

 

Simple answer, turn the T-Dynamics control all the way down. From the manual: https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80304681.pdf

 

"T-Dynamics®

This control adjusts the power level of the amplifier from 10 percent to 100 percent power. When set to lower settings, the power compression simulation will be much more pronounced. This control is found on the Studio Pro 112 and Bandit 112."

 

Page 7, number 15.

I turned T-Dynamics all the way down and left it there. It allowed me to turn up the Master quite a bit - which is where this feature sits, quietly waiting to be discovered.

 

One of TransTube's secret powers is that Hartley didn't just try to duplicate tube preamp distortion, he wanted the output section to behave as much like a tube amp as possible. To that end, keeping the output section at a lower power and turning up the master volume will bring in some compression and harmonics that you won't have if you run the T-Dynamics full clockwise.

 

I've also found that the Post Gain control in the lead section does not mean "after the gain", it means "Output section gain." Turning that up and keeping your Pre-Gain lower will smooth things out and make the tones more tube-like. More "sing", less "crunch".

 

The Vypyr VIP series is even better. The VIP1 doesn't have T-Dynamics (renamed Power Soak) but cranking the Post Gain and turning the Pre Gain way down gets you there. The VIP 3 has the Power Soak feature and now dials back to 1% so the 100 watt amp starts to sound more like a small tube amp.

 

IMHO, TransTube is one of Hartley's greatest achievements, up there with being the first guitar manufacturer to use CNC machines to make bodies and necks. Now EVERYBODY does that.

There aren't many SS analog tube simulations - Tech 21 stands out but TransTube can hold it's own if adjusted well. Cheers, Kuru

[The Real MC]

If you want to play through a 4x12 cabinet, use an amp that is rated for no less than 50 watts. The crucial component is the output transformer. They are designed for the power rating of the amp. If you use a smaller amp to drive a 4x12 cabinet, you will burn out the $$$ output transformer.

[The Real MC]

One of TransTube's secret powers is that Hartley didn't just try to duplicate tube preamp distortion, he wanted the output section to behave as much like a tube amp as possible. To that end, keeping the output section at a lower power and turning up the master volume will bring in some compression and harmonics that you won't have if you run the T-Dynamics full clockwise.

 

Yup - the real tone is in the TUBE POWER AMP.

 

I remember when the first amp modelers came out. Neat trick but I could hear something missing, and I figured out they were only modeling the preamp stage. When Vox came out with the Valvetronix which modeled BOTH the preamp and power stages, THEN the sound got more authentic. Even today not all amp emulators model the power stage.

[KuruPrionz]

One of TransTube's secret powers is that Hartley didn't just try to duplicate tube preamp distortion, he wanted the output section to behave as much like a tube amp as possible. To that end, keeping the output section at a lower power and turning up the master volume will bring in some compression and harmonics that you won't have if you run the T-Dynamics full clockwise.

 

Yup - the real tone is in the TUBE POWER AMP.

 

I remember when the first amp modelers came out. Neat trick but I could hear something missing, and I figured out they were only modeling the preamp stage. When Vox came out with the Valvetronix which modeled BOTH the preamp and power stages, THEN the sound got more authentic. Even today not all amp emulators model the power stage.

 

 

Peavey was way ahead of everybody else in that respect. This is an interesting read - https://peavey.com/PDFs/Chapter3.pdf

The first officially named TransTube amps came out in 1996. The second iteration - the Red Stripe amps, was a big improvement.

The Vypyrs and the new Chinese made Envoy and Bandit are better still. A better speaker helps in almost every Peavey, except the ones that came with a Scorpion, that's a great speaker.

 

The Tech 21 stuff is also really good. I have the Double Drive 3x which allows combinations of "Class A" (even order harmonics) and "Class AB" (odd order harmonics) and it's a fantastic tool for live or studio work, good for anything from clean to crazy.

[Winston Psmith]

@KuruPrionz - Thanks for that.

 

I have the Manual on my desktop, and hadn't really thought about using the T-Dynamics as a Power Brake? The way I read it, I thought of it purely in terms of a Tube-Emulating "Drive" circuit. Clearly, I was mistaken.

 

Way back - 1980 or so - I had a Peavey Deuce, and I loved diming out the Pre Gain knob, then slowly bringing up the Post Gain knob for hellacious Drive tones, and absurd sustain.

[KuruPrionz]

@KuruPrionz - Thanks for that.

 

I have the Manual on my desktop, and hadn't really thought about using the T-Dynamics as a Power Brake? The way I read it, I thought of it purely in terms of a Tube-Emulating "Drive" circuit. Clearly, I was mistaken.

 

Way back - 1980 or so - I had a Peavey Deuce, and I loved diming out the Pre Gain knob, then slowly bringing up the Post Gain knob for hellacious Drive tones, and absurd sustain.

 

It takes a bit of tweaking depending on your guitar to find the sounds but there are some great sounds on a Red Stripe Studio Pro.

My pickups are high output, EMG SA or Tele pickups with an SPC turned all the way up all the time. So I don't need much Pre-Gain.

It took me a while to learn to use the Post Gain and T-Dynamics but once I found it I never switched back. Friends with tube amps and nice pedal boards were coming up to me on stage and asking how I got my tone. I always laugh and hand them my pick - a 2mm Gator. It is indispensable for me but nobody seems to want to try it.

 

Then I tell them we are jugglers, not weight lifters. Nobody seems to want to hear that either.