I Just Don't Get It...

[Chip McDonald]

I've only been able to buy a brand new guitar maybe... 4 times in my life. I wish all of those guitars looked brand new, but I play them.

 

Most of my guitars have been kit guitars, so they've never looked perfect from the outset. In fact, this never bothered me until a guitar student told me "did you get that guitar out of the dumptster?", and it dawned on me that to the "non-experienced novice" a beat up, worn guitar isn't "cool" or "battle damage", but *unprofessional*. I'd never thought about it because Eddie Van Halen had always pieced guitars together, and nobody said anything about that. But this admittedly rude "proud southerner" instantly made me aware that it was a biased perception on my part, that it doesn't matter what my guitar looked like.

 

Unfortunately most of my guitars are "naturally reliced", I don't want them that way, it's just how it is. I suppose the coolest one is a 1983 Japanese strat which I suppose is now "classic", that has gone from Olympic white to an aged off white. My nicest, favorite guitar - a custom Suhr from long ago - has a thin lacquer finish that is starting to tighten up on the grain. Which is interesting, but I'm not exactly in a hurry for it to look more than it's 20 years of age.

 

Wanting something new that looks old is the height of western decadence. I like the *sound* of dried wood, but I don't like something that is the equivalent of buying a guitar at the Cracker Barrel gift shop, fake memorabilia. Kountry krafts shabby chic. Why someone would want something that looks like *it belonged to someone else's life* is peculiar to me. Like wearing an Old Navy shirt that has some sort of fake college declared across the front of it.

 

The worst of it is that there is one company, whose name I won't mention, whose guitars have perfectly captured the pawnshop *junk guitar* look. People don't see to have an awareness of subtlety: reliced to look like an "old guitar played hard" is one thing, but "piece of junk that some kid abused, scratched up deliberately and hanging on a pawn shop wall for 10 years" ...... Geez. It's like "vintage Hondo-Kramer Striker" relicing. At least Gibson, et al have raised it to an art form in some cases, but these things that look literally *dirty* and cheap, it's beyond me.

 

But in the immortal words of Miles Copeland, "hey man, I'm just a peasant".

[Claus H]

For me, those relics are the ultimate in pretentiousness. Some kid wants a guitar that has all the implied "road miles" of a pro player's axe, even though he has never stood on a stage in his life.

It's the ultimate expression of "If I buy the tools that look 'pro' or 'roadworthy', not only will my playing magically get better, but I can brag to my friends about my non-existing career"....please.

 

Why doesn't Neumann sell replica 47 or 67 condensers with bumps and scratches so they look like they've been at Abbey Road for decades...that's about as idiotic.

 

C.

[Mike Rivers]

I would have guessed Martin but the finish doesn't look the same. Very close copy of a D-28 from the front. The fretboard looks like ebony? Ot\herwise I would have guessed a Martin D-18 with rosewood board. Some of them are pretty dark.

 

No, it's a genuine D-18, one that's hung on the wall, out of the case, for most of its life.

[GovernorSilver]

Decades after you and I are dead of old age, young people will turn up their noses at anything old and only go for slick, futuristic looking stuff. The pendulum will swing back to what it was in the 80s when Superstrats like the Ibanez, Charvel, etc, and futuristic axes like the Steinberger. were in and vintage guitars were not. And FX processors had to be the state of the art rackmount ones, not crummy fuzz pedals and analog delays.

 

Those young men will become old men posting on forums asking why young people get scratch/dented up guitars all fixed up and looking shiny and new.

 

I think you've hit upon something deeper, the need people have for something "new and different." What threw me off the scent is that in this case, "old" is new and different.

 

Yes, I was puzzled at first by the seeming nostalgia that some young people have for things that were made before they were even born. Then I realized, as you probably did, that for them, vintage things are exotic and different.

 

Hence the preponderance of old and worn-looking tables when young people do synth videos - the synth(s) are almost alway sitting on top of a table that looks at least 100 years old.

 

I am fortunate in that I have so far avoided catching the fetish for vintage guitars like the $25,000 vintage Strat that I saw on sale at a local shop. One of the upsides of learning and practicing new things on guitar is being frequently reminded of how much more room I have to grow as a guitarist, and thus the awareness that if my playing needs work on a guitar made in a factory in 2017-2020, it will still need work on a $25,000 vintage Strat.

 

The first electric guitar I bought was a PRS CE Bolt-On, which was in production in the early 90s. I was so mortified after I put my first scratch on it - the classic "got careless with the belt buckle" scratch. It didn't matter that this guitar was made in Asia. Years later, I had a roommate tell me that showing the belt buckle is out of style, girls (she was a girl) like dude who hide the belt buckle with a shirt... nother story of course.

[Notes_Norton]

I use mechanic's belts. No buckle. Zero buckle rash on the back of the guitar.

 

https://www.mechanicsbelt.com/

 

The same guy recently expanded to include musicians

 

https://www.musiciansbelt.com/

 

If you want the plain belt, it's a bit cheaper on the mechanicsbelt site.

 

I have no affiliation with him except that I'm a customer, and I've bought a half dozen belts from him over the course of many years.

 

Notes

[KuruPrionz]

 

I am fortunate in that I have so far avoided catching the fetish for vintage guitars like the $25,000 vintage Strat that I saw on sale at a local shop. One of the upsides of learning and practicing new things on guitar is being frequently reminded of how much more room I have to grow as a guitarist, and thus the awareness that if my playing needs work on a guitar made in a factory in 2017-2020, it will still need work on a $25,000 vintage Strat.

 

For me, the reality is that my playing style requires a flatter fingerboard and taller frets. A vintage Fender is one of my least favorite guitars to play, ever. A 7.5 radius means the action needs to be up higher to be able to bend the strings more than an whole step without "tinking out". The small frets means you really have to bear down to control the string while bending, a tense hand posture is not what I want. Add in electronics/pickups that hum, crappy tuners and tone sucking bridge components and I am out. I know that other players love them and I honor that, not here (or anywhere) to tell people what kind of guitar to play. And my giggers are both Parts-O-Casters - a Tele and a Strat. i just use the parts that I like instead of the vintage stuff.

 

Yeah, some of my guitars get beat up a bit. I've played the hell out of them for decades. I bought a Gibson ES335 Studio model in 1988, it was near mint then. It's not near mint now. Normal wear and tear, nothing more. Anybody can see it's been used.

If a guitar sits around here long enough without getting played, I sell it - hopefully to somebody who will love it and play it all the time.

[GovernorSilver]

 

I am fortunate in that I have so far avoided catching the fetish for vintage guitars like the $25,000 vintage Strat that I saw on sale at a local shop. One of the upsides of learning and practicing new things on guitar is being frequently reminded of how much more room I have to grow as a guitarist, and thus the awareness that if my playing needs work on a guitar made in a factory in 2017-2020, it will still need work on a $25,000 vintage Strat.

 

For me, the reality is that my playing style requires a flatter fingerboard and taller frets. A vintage Fender is one of my least favorite guitars to play, ever. A 7.5 radius means the action needs to be up higher to be able to bend the strings more than an whole step without "tinking out". The small frets means you really have to bear down to control the string while bending, a tense hand posture is not what I want. Add in electronics/pickups that hum, crappy tuners and tone sucking bridge components and I am out. I know that other players love them and I honor that, not here (or anywhere) to tell people what kind of guitar to play. And my giggers are both Parts-O-Casters - a Tele and a Strat. i just use the parts that I like instead of the vintage stuff.

 

Yeah, some of my guitars get beat up a bit. I've played the hell out of them for decades. I bought a Gibson ES335 Studio model in 1988, it was near mint then. It's not near mint now. Normal wear and tear, nothing more. Anybody can see it's been used.

If a guitar sits around here long enough without getting played, I sell it - hopefully to somebody who will love it and play it all the time.

 

Speaking of radius, I'm learning this song:

 

[video:youtube]

 

I can play all the notes of the F#min7 on the 14th fret just fine on my 16" radius Breedlove Discovery Concert nylon string guitar.... and my 9.5" radius Fender American Pro II Jazzmaster, but not on my 12" radius Eric Johnson Thinline Strat, on which I have to play the F# on the 14th fret, then roll the barreing finger to play the upper notes - if I try to play all the notes, the other F# is muted. I guess it's just how my index finger is shaped and where the gaps are between the finger joints. I'm not super big on bending, but when I was goofing off with an Eric Johnson style backing track, I didn't notice any problems with the bends on the Jazzmaster.

 

I bought all of the aforementioned guitars within the last 2 years. A little too young to show much abuse yet, hehe. Although the Strat has a nitro finish, which is starting to show some "checking". I inquired about how to care for that finish to slow down the check-to-crack process that supposedly happens with nitro finishes - never got any replies. I'm sure the vintage fanatics would be looking at me like I was insane. I ended up just wiping it down once a while with Dr. Duck's Axe Wax, though the majority of the Dr. Ducks went on the neck because that nitro laquer was laid so darn thick and was sticky too.

[Dave Bryce]

To me, if there"s not a story that goes along with how a mark got on an instrument, where"s the fun?

 

I know a manufacturer whose relicing options include strapping instruments to a sound table and running recordings of a similar instrument being played the through the table/instrument for a whole bunch of hours. Said people believe that an instrument"s character changes when sound has been run through it for a while.

 

dB

[KuruPrionz]

To me, if there"s not a story that goes along with how a mark got on an instrument, where"s the fun?

 

I know a manufacturer whose relicing options include strapping instruments to a sound table and running recordings of a similar instrument being played the through the table/instrument for a whole bunch of hours. Said people believe that an instrument"s character changes when sound has been run through it for a while.

 

dB

 

That's funny!!!

 

Up until now, the myth that using hide glue to assemble solid body electric guitars would make them more "resonant" has been my favorite but you might have just kicked it down to second place.

 

And somehow, I own two acoustic guitars that are essentially entirely made of plastic and both of them are far and away among the best sounding guitars I've ever played - out of hundreds of prized specimens. Not a drop of hide glue in either one.

No wood either. It's impossible, and it's wrong.

 

I would like to try Mike Rivers Martin though, there are stories in that guitar. Somebody LOVED it.

[Mike Rivers]

To me, if there"s not a story that goes along with how a mark got on an instrument, where"s the fun?

 

My Ampex MM1100 had one VU meter with a bent needle. Prince dropped in to the studio that owned it before me and spent a couple of hours working alone on a couple of songs. He apologized for damaging the meter (a punch-in with too much gain) and offered to pay for replacement, but the studio decided they'd rather have the story than a new meter.

 

I know a manufacturer whose relicing options include strapping instruments to a sound table and running recordings of a similar instrument being played the through the table/instrument for a whole bunch of hours. Said people believe that an instrument"s character changes when sound has been run through it for a while.

 

I've heard of people hanging an acoustic guitar in front of a loudspeaker and playing loud music at it for a few days to "break it in." I don't know if that actually worked, but the idea of breaking in a loudspeaker is well known.

[Anderton]

I use mechanic's belts. No buckle. Zero buckle rash on the back of the guitar.

 

https://www.mechanicsbelt.com/

 

The same guy recently expanded to include musicians

 

https://www.musiciansbelt.com/

 

Useful info...thanks!

[Chip McDonald]

To me, if there"s not a story that goes along with how a mark got on an instrument, where"s the fun?

 

 

Exactly. It's like you're showing off X-rays of bone breaks for when you fell off the 12' half pipe... except you don't actually skateboard and it's Tony Hawk's x-rays.

 

"Narcisist visual shredding". You don't care if someone thinks it's not real, you're just wanting to get the kudos from those that *you* think *might* think it's real. The orange suntan of guitar.

[Chip McDonald]

I would love to have a Porsche GT-2/3/x whatever in borealis arancio orange.

 

I can't imagine dinging it up to make it look like it's been rally racing.

 

But then, I can't afford even the wheels on that car. For someone that can have 5-6, maybe it's "amusing" to have a pretend "battle damage" race car. I'd feel so ridiculous driving such a thing, and totally embarrassed if I encountered an actual race car driver in it.

 

Paying $$$$$$ for a custom beat up guitar is exactly like that to me. If anyone wants to buy some authentically "reliced" guitars for a marked up price, let me know.

[KuruPrionz]

To me, if there"s not a story that goes along with how a mark got on an instrument, where"s the fun?

 

My Ampex MM1100 had one VU meter with a bent needle. Prince dropped in to the studio that owned it before me and spent a couple of hours working alone on a couple of songs. He apologized for damaging the meter (a punch-in with too much gain) and offered to pay for replacement, but the studio decided they'd rather have the story than a new meter.

 

I know a manufacturer whose relicing options include strapping instruments to a sound table and running recordings of a similar instrument being played the through the table/instrument for a whole bunch of hours. Said people believe that an instrument"s character changes when sound has been run through it for a while.

 

I've heard of people hanging an acoustic guitar in front of a loudspeaker and playing loud music at it for a few days to "break it in." I don't know if that actually worked, but the idea of breaking in a loudspeaker is well known.

 

I've heard of the "loudspeaker trick" as well. I can't say it doesn't (or does) work. I'm not sure if scientific measurement of all parameters before and after would prove anything conclusively either.

I do remember once leaving my Martin D-35 leaning against something and I was playing bass through a big amp that a friend left there. I played a G note and the 3rd string of the guitar rang out like it had been struck.

 

So a guitar will definitely resonate when sound is present. Worst case, I guess it won't hurt anything. I've also had many owners tell me their guitars improved in tone over the first 6 months to a year of playing. That's a subjective statement but it doesn't make it untrue. I've only owned one nearly new acoustic guitar in my life and I don't play it enough to notice anything except that it has always sounded nice. My Rainsong guitars don't change, probably ever.

 

If the guitar owner is happy, I am happy for them.

[Greg Mein]

I do remember once leaving my Martin D-35 leaning against something and I was playing bass through a big amp that a friend left there. I played a G note and the 3rd string of the guitar rang out like it had been struck.

 

That is sympathetic resonance and is somewhat similar to what caused the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse, a favorite video clip teachers like to show in technical school.

[KuruPrionz]

I do remember once leaving my Martin D-35 leaning against something and I was playing bass through a big amp that a friend left there. I played a G note and the 3rd string of the guitar rang out like it had been struck.

 

That is sympathetic resonance and is somewhat similar to what caused the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse, a favorite video clip teachers like to show in technical school.

 

 

Yes, exactly that. The question then would be - does activating the guitar with external sounds for a period of time make the guitar itself more responsive?

 

I don't have an answer and every time somebody has mentioned that it seems the process and results are more anecdotal than scientifically proven.

Further, while science might be able to prove that the response of the guitar has changed, whether or not that is "better" is subject to personal interpretation.

 

Thus, my response - If the guitar owner is happy, I am happy for them.

It's the only honest thing I can think of at the moment. Cheers, Kuru

[Anderton]

I've also had many owners tell me their guitars improved in tone over the first 6 months to a year of playing. That's a subjective statement but it doesn't make it untrue.

 

I have a gorgeous Gibson J-45 (there definitely were some fringe benefits working for Gibson!) and I have no doubt the tone has improved over the years. I asked one of their luthiers whether this was perception or reality, and received a lengthy and authoritative discourse on how changes in the glue and wood do indeed influence the sound over time. He didn't mention anything about the constant resonating making a difference, but I would think that playing the guitar would stress (in a good way) the crossbracing, joints, etc., and could conceivably cause the guitar to settle in.

[GovernorSilver]

The tone of all my guitars improved as my playing began to suck less.

 

Speaking of Gibson, I was reading up on 339 vs. 336 and was reminded of that old argument that solid top is always better than laminated top. 336 has the solid and therefore its greater expense over the 339 is justified. But I also came across arguments that technology/processes for manufacturing laminated tops have improved so much that the old argument might no longer apply.

[Anderton]

I was reading up on 339 vs. 336 and was reminded of that old argument that solid top is always better than laminated top. 336 has the solid and therefore its greater expense over the 339 is justified. But I also came across arguments that technology/processes for manufacturing laminated tops have improved so much that the old argument might no longer apply.

 

By the time a guitar goes through all my processing, it's unclear whether the guitar was solid- or hollow-body

[GovernorSilver]

I was just listening to some Youtube demos of the acoustic guitar sim in the Helix 3.0 update. This is just Line 6 stuff, at a humble level I'm sure, compared to what you guys are running in your high-end DAW setups. That said, it seems to work well on a dual-humbucker guitar - much better than the acoustic sims I heard more than a decade ago.

 

[video:youtube]

[Anderton]

I was just listening to some Youtube demos of the acoustic guitar sim in the Helix 3.0 update. This is just Line 6 stuff, at a humble level I'm sure, compared to what you guys are running in your high-end DAW setups.

 

I consider running the Helix a high-end DAW setup I love both the plug-in and the floor unit.

 

My J-45 has a piezo pickup that sounds, well, like it's from 14 years ago I thought it had a somewhat muffled sound compared to a mic'ed acoustic, so I set about doing some EQ matching and wrote about it in this article. I've also tried the Blue Cat acoustic simulator, and it sounds pretty good.

 

But seeing that video has inspired me to see if I can come up with some cool variations on the Line 6 acoustic simulation.

[GovernorSilver]

Ooh, thanks! I could probably use the info on your article for tweaking the piezo tone of my cheap nylon string electro-acoustic (Breedlove Discovery Concert).

 

I recall seeing similar information in a workshop put on by Zach Brock (Snarky Puppy violinist). On the Electric Strings discussion group, the most common complaints revolve around the piezo pickups typically used on electric violins, and add-ons for acoustic fiddles. Typical advice is either "live with it bro" or "get a parametric EQ". Thus it was nice to see Zach demonstrate what I think is the EQ matching procedure. He showed us waveform displays in his DAW, then went through the process of using EQ in the DAW to get the desired sonic results, including the elimination of the "piezo scratch" and "bow thump".

 

Kind of going back to topic, I'm tempted by this used D'Angelico semi-hollow. It's discounted for being used... AND has been reliced for free!!! I presume "finish cracks" really do just mean cracks in the finish and not the wood itself.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DCMEXVNST--dangelico-excel-mini-dc-vintage-natural-with-stopbar-tailpiece?cond=DCMEXVNSTU1

[KuruPrionz]

My J-45 has a piezo pickup that sounds, well, like it's from 14 years ago I thought it had a somewhat muffled sound compared to a mic'ed acoustic, so I set about doing some EQ matching and wrote about it in this article. I've also tried the Blue Cat acoustic simulator, and it sounds pretty good.

Ooh, thanks! I could probably use the info on your article for tweaking the piezo tone of my cheap nylon string electro-acoustic (Breedlove Discovery Concert).

 

There are solutions and they are not expensive!!!! Three notable sound differences about piezo pickups - first, the piezo has an instantaneous output spike so the transient response has a bit of an edge to it. I don't care for that sound. Second, removing what is an undifferentiated piece of foreign material from under the saddle and using a solid saddle that sits firmly on the bottom of the saddle slot can bring out tones you didn't know you had. Third, depending on your choice of strings (nylon strings are much more uniform in this regard) often enough the G and E strings are not as loud as the B string, which I hate.

 

I've now installed 5 K&K Pro Mini under top pickups in different guitars, including my own Rainsong OM1000. I've also written an addendum to the K&K installation manual that makes some procedures much easier, Dieter emailed me and thanked me for the procedures and presentation.

 

The Pro Mini smooths out the transients since the sound has to travel through 2 different layers of very different woods (plus a microscopically thin layer of glue) to activate the pickups. This brings out a tone that is more like the sound of the guitar when you play it, sweeter, clearer, just better. Removing the pickup from under the saddle and cutting a new one piece saddle that sits on the actual top of the guitar instead of a piece of crap improves the tone more than I would have thought, this is a big improvement that made me smile on 5 different occasions. Last but not least, the K& K is 3 separate small disks and the high one is positioned under the E string while the other two go in between the G and D strings and the A and low E strings. That really evens out the volume of the strings.

 

I still like the tones I get from a pair of Neat Worker Bees better on recordings but the straight in K&K run direct with no EQ is more than usable.

 

I also have a Yamaha nylon string hybrid guitar that has a copy of the K&K and an excellent preamp with EQ. That just sounds great plugged straight in, a full, rich defined tone.

 

Elderly has the K&K Pro Mini all day long for $100 or they did a few months ago. If you are handy with tools it is not a difficult installation. If you'd like my addendum, PM me with an email address and I will send a copy.

[GovernorSilver]

I certainly have no shortage of people to turn to for help with piezo issues!

 

I'm just expressing gratitude for Anderton's article. I only mentioned my Breedlove nylon string in passing, in a casual manner. I got the Breedlove because I found it by chance when it was on sale at a local shop, and I thought it'd be great to have a nylon string guitar to relieve my fingers from playing steel strings all the time. I am not quite ready to do a big recording project with the Breedlove, nor do I have any crisis going on with it's pickup. It's all good!!!!

 

I learned about the Line 6 HX Stomp and the Helix software that runs on it via the Electric Strings discussion group. I will likely get the HX Stomp or HX Stomp LX to lighten my load when I travel with my electric violin to band rehearsals. There is a preset pack, designed specifically for violin players, that is available which I of course will buy along with the HX Stomp. The people who contributed to those presets are experienced electric violinists who know the ins and outs of Helix. The presets include IRs of acoustic violin and cello, so that it's easier for the gigging electric violinist to dial up those tones.