I Just Don't Get It...

[Anderton]

This article from Popular Science talks in glowing terms about how Gibson is able to f*ck up guitars to make them look and feel like they been played somewhat, a lot, a whole lot, or been on tour for years.

 

The one application the article mentions that really makes sense to me is when they "relic'ed" a guitar for A Star Is Born to make it look authentically old in the context of the movie. But other than that...why? If I'm spending that much money on a guitar, I want it to be new. Right? Otherwise, why not just go to reverb.com, and say "sell me a messed-up guitar...you can charge me twice as much if you want, that's okay."

 

Then again...I have a pink paisley 1966 Telecaster that was considered less than worthless in the early 70s, so I used it for all my wiring experiments that were published in Guitar Player and Electronic Projects for Musicians. It's quite messed up! Anyone want to pay me $10,000 for it? I'll even throw in a Certificate of Authenticity that guarantees it's messed up.

 

Any takers?

[KuruPrionz]

Oh Lordy, you HAD to go there? LOL!

 

Long ago and far away, I was an emperor of guitar boogering. Nothing was worth then what it is now, not even close.

Options were limited and so was information - at least in Fresno Ca. Learning to modify and/or repair electric guitars, you were more or less on your own. "Let's try this, oh that sucked. Let's try that - awesome!"

And, pretty much anything from the 50's, 60's and even 70's is collectable now to somebody.

 

Admittedly, with my meager budget just about anything I could afford to buy was already boogered but but I had a knack for taking it to the next level.

Among the victims...

1970 Martin D-35 with the Brazilian center stripe in the back

1952 Tele with Leo's signature in the neck route

1959 Strat

1962 Jazzmaster

1965 Tele

Mosrite Ventures model Bass with the side jack.

A 1968 Gretsch Viking, custom ordered and never picked up - black single cut with the stereo wiring and the floating bridge with tuning fork - essentially a Black Falcon.

Mid 60's Roc-Jet with Supertron II pickups (to this day my favorite passive pickup, we could get NOS for an auction buyer for $12 each!!!!).

 

Then there were the ones that customers wanted ruined. I put at least 3-4 Kahler vibratos in Les Pauls that were otherwise to die for and suddenly sounded like low quality banjos only worse.

Just yank those old pickups out and put in a DiMarzio Super Distortion / PAF set up.

 

I know better now but the damage was done. I don't have any of them any more either. So it goes...

[GovernorSilver]

Why? The answer is the same as always.

 

Gibson is in the business to make money. Relicing provides an income stream for them.

 

I'm sure the same is true for Fender and Suhr. I only mention Suhr because John Suhr is fairly open about hows and whys of guitar making in forum discussions. I marvel at his patience in dealing with guys who have some deeply held beliefs and defend them with all the passion of a religious fanatic. Well, ok maybe Suhr isn't going to say custom orders with the aging/relic option makes up X% of his total net profit, but he doesn't seem to mind going into the nitty gritty of what impact such a process does to the guitar sound, or if there is even an impact at all. I always laughed when he would say flat out "for this guitar model, there i no difference tonal impact between quarter-sawn and non-quarter-sawn neck", then all the defensive replies would come out tell him how he, John Suhr, don't know squat about making guitars.

[Mike Rivers]

You can pay double or more for a pair of jeans that are pre-ripped and threadbare. Why not a guitar?

[Nowarezman]

Some speculations on the "why" of the fake aging:

 

1. maybe some players feel like the road-worn look or vintage vibe is part of their performance schtick. McCartney still plays his old Hofner - Larry Carlton plays his old 335, etc. Maybe you take great care of your real 60s Strat, it still looks good, and the actual new guitar looks much older and worn so you play that live.

 

2. so you have an old beloved guitar - but you just don't want to take it on the road any longer - too precious, maybe needs some work, etc. So you buy one of these faux-bangers as a stunt double. Let the fake one get stolen or fall over and snap the neck. Best of both worlds.

 

3. you think you can fob that $3K faux-aged guitar off on someone as a real '58 whatever for $8K.

 

4. you are an insecure kid and you make up stories about yourself to impress your peers. So, yeah, this is my grandad's guitar - he was a roadie in the hippie days and he won it from a very drunk Jerry Garcia in a poker game, etc. Took it with him to VIetnam. Played it in a punk band, late 70s., etc. Coolest guitar of all time, etc.

 

5. you order one to pick up at the store. Use the "2nd" checkbook. Tell the spouse you found it at a garage sale, $100. Fixer-upper.

 

6. maybe you just like the vibe on an aesthetic level. Like the guys/gals who build those cars that look straight out of Road Warrior. I do kind of admire those post-apocalyptic-looking vehicles - I get it. (Still I'd rather have a shiny one first, the faked up one second.)

 

Any other good reasons anyone can think of? And if you bought one of the aged models, why did you buy it?

 

nat

[KuruPrionz]

Decades ago, I had 2 interesting customers as a guitar tech. Both were also friends.There is sort of a theme here, it will reveal itself. This is more on topic than my first post.

 

Byron would buy a new white strat every 3-4 years and then he would get a pouch of pipe tobacco, set up a tent in the back yard and "smoke" the guitar to a nice, yellowed white color.

It looked cool and smelled like an ashtray. The reason he would get a new one and start over is that he had very corrosive sweat and not only would the bridge adjustment screws rust to the point of being unusable, significant areas of the guitar's finish would turn a putrid green color. That bugged him so he'd start over. He was a pro player with a solid 3 nights a week gigging places that paid decent money (Hotel Lounges, Casinos, etc.).One of the earliest "relic jobs" I can think of offhand.

 

Jack on the other hand preferred sunburst Gibson Les Pauls. His sweat was so corrosive he had to change his strings for every gig. If he didn't, in the morning they would have a black colored crust on them - nasty! Another pro player with a full book of business, Jack would keep a guitar if he liked it - but - mostly where the right arm rested on the top edge of the body but also in other select spots, the finish would wear away much more quickly than it did for "normal" people and as it wore off, the surrounding areas would turn a sickly shade of green.

 

I had another friend who traded into a red Gibson Les Paul Custom and he mentioned to me that the guitar looked too "candy ass" for him. I told him to loan it to Jack for six months and while we both laughed, we knew what the results would be.

 

Then I had a customer who wanted me to change the strings and set up his guitar, an Ovation round back acoustic. The fingerboard was filthy, crusted over with the residue of possibly decades of playing. It was just nasty, plus strings cannot stay clean in such filth. Being the ever dedicated and humble public servant, I diligently scraped the entire fretboard clean, put it all in a small bottle and gave it to a fellow guitar tech labelled "Neck Funk with Hillbilly Dander". I got the guitar cleaned up, set up and playing well. The customer was heartbroken, it took him so long to build up that crust and he was very proud of it. He became somebody else's customer after that, I didn't miss him.

[Anderton]

Then I had a customer who wanted me to change the strings and set up his guitar, an Ovation round back acoustic. The fingerboard was filthy, crusted over with the residue of possibly decades of playing. It was just nasty, plus strings cannot stay clean in such filth. Being the ever dedicated and humble public servant, I diligently scraped the entire fretboard clean, put it all in a small bottle and gave it to a fellow guitar tech labelled "Neck Funk with Hillbilly Dander". I got the guitar cleaned up, set up and playing well. The customer was heartbroken, it took him so long to build up that crust and he was very proud of it. He became somebody else's customer after that, I didn't miss him.

 

And to think I try so hard to keep my guitars looking nice...

 

Then again, I guess some guys want their girlfriends to look like tramps. Never could figure that one out, either

[KuruPrionz]

Then I had a customer who wanted me to change the strings and set up his guitar, an Ovation round back acoustic. The fingerboard was filthy, crusted over with the residue of possibly decades of playing. It was just nasty, plus strings cannot stay clean in such filth. Being the ever dedicated and humble public servant, I diligently scraped the entire fretboard clean, put it all in a small bottle and gave it to a fellow guitar tech labelled "Neck Funk with Hillbilly Dander". I got the guitar cleaned up, set up and playing well. The customer was heartbroken, it took him so long to build up that crust and he was very proud of it. He became somebody else's customer after that, I didn't miss him.

 

And to think I try so hard to keep my guitars looking nice...

 

Then again, I guess some guys want their girlfriends to look like tramps. Never could figure that one out, either

 

Some of my guitars are "beaters" but I keep them clean. I don't want that nasty funk on my strings!

For every solution, there is a problem.

[David Emm]

I once saw a guy do a nice turn on keytar, but it was covered in tattered Simpsons stickers and dayglo goofiness. During the break, I asked him why. He said "It makes it look like a piece of crap and people are 10% less likely to steal it."

[Nowarezman]

Yeah, my old buddy I roomed with has an old Martin nylon string, kind of like Willy's. I borrowed it for a session, and it was plastered and thick on the neck and top with dark brown human goo....I spent half a day cleaning it up. Got no thanks for that favor, no sir.

 

He's the same old buddy who followed his Dad's maxim, "never clean the coffee maker" as the great secret to good coffee.

 

Mmmmboy..nothing like rancid oils for that special taste, touch, and feel.

 

nat

[KuruPrionz]

Yeah, my old buddy I roomed with has an old Martin nylon string, kind of like Willy's. I borrowed it for a session, and it was 1/8" thick on the neck and top with dark brown human goo....I spent half a day cleaning it up. Got no thanks for that favor, no sir.

 

He's the same old buddy who followed his Dad's maxim, "never clean the coffee maker" as the great secret to good coffee.

 

Mmmmboy..nothing like rancid oils for that special taste, touch, and feel.

 

nat

 

What??? You ruined his guitar and he wasn't happy? lol...

[The Real MC]

My guitar player brother had been pushing me to get a decent Gibson guitar. I remember the day I found a good Les Paul after a looooong search. It was a used one with faded sunburst plaintop and pitting on the nickel plated hardware and pickup covers. Played and sounded good. Sure felt "broken in". Then I checked the tag... brand new.

 

...Huh?!?

 

Turns out it is a VOS "G0" made for the Guitar Center stores. It listed for $2600 so it wasn't marked up because of its "relic" touches. A figured top would had been DOUBLE the price.

 

Yes I took it home. When I noticed customers peeking around the corner wondering where that sound was coming from, I decided if I didn't buy it then someone else was going to. The next day I picked it up, and the staff said several customers were going after the guitar.

 

http://analoguediehard.com/studio/guitars/gibson_custom-shop-1960-les-paul-standard-vos-aged/lespaul-full.jpg

[Notes_Norton]

Of course Gibson and others sell "relic'ed" guitars to make money. Anything they think will sell will be added to the lineup. That's just business. Give them what they want.

 

What I don't understand is why people want themâ½

 

I've seen a lot of pictures in ads and in forums, and they don't look naturally worn to me.

 

And even if they did, for me the big question is why would you want that?

 

Is it because a person saw some guitar god/goddess playing a naturally worn guitar and wants to emulate him/her?

 

Does the potential buyer think it will give her/him street cred?

 

It's not that I condemn the practice, I just don't really understand why someone would want a pre-funked-up guitar.

 

I'm not into keeping my guitars in pristine condition, and I suppose if they wore naturally I'd accept that, but I'd rather they look new-ish.

 

But there is more than one right way to do almost anything.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Notes_Norton]

You can pay double or more for a pair of jeans that are pre-ripped and threadbare. Why not a guitar?

And that is a ploy initiated by the fashion industry to make more profit. The problem as they saw it was that jeans last too long, and that means the individual consumer is not buying them often enough. After all, a pair of jeans in the early 60s could last 2 or 3 years if worn regularly.

 

So how to get them to buy a new pair? It started with stone washing in the 60s. Corporate heads say something lie this. Let's damage the fabric, so they wear out sooner, and sell it as a fashion statement.

 

Great! That worked!!! But we'd like them to buy even more, after all, a corporation's management is only as good as last quarter's profits.

 

So they tried designer jeans with fabric so think they would wear out sooner, but that became passé.

 

How about pre-installing holes in them? A great idea, they will finish ripping and become destroyed in the washer, and the consumer will have to buy new ones. All we have to do make it 'in fashion' to have already worn out jeans, and we certainly know how to sell the fashion hungry public anything.

 

I don't see that as akin to relic'ed guitars.

 

But I'd never buy a relic'ed pair of jeans either

 

Notes

[RABid]

Oh boy. I got in trouble for making the same statement on TalkBass.com. You cannot talk about the idiocy of relics there because it is such a smoldering topic. There is no middle ground. People either love them or hate them. I'm in the hate them category. Give me a beautiful blue with the wood grain showing through. I mean, really, you don't buy a nice car and then go out and bang it up on purpose. "Hey mom. I reliced the Camry. It looks better now."

[RABid]

Bottom line statement for me. If I am playing a new but reliced instrument, I feel like I am playing a pretender.

[Anderton]

There is no middle ground. People either love them or hate them.

 

I don't hate them, I just don't get why people want them.

 

Although...I mixed a song once and ended up with a clean, solid mix. But it was kind of a sparse and punkish song, so I thought it would be fun to make it sound like it had been recorded live in a club. I "relic'ed" the song with EQ, delay, resonances, a little hum, etc. It ended up sounding like it had indeed been recorded live in a club. So maybe it's the same kind of concept - deliberate trashing for a specific aesthetic.

[KuruPrionz]

Having seen MANY authentic, worn as hell\ guitars and having looked at a few relics, some of them get pretty close but they don't capture the "vibe". The Devil's in the details, if you are going to put a lot of fake wear on the finish then I will expect to see an authentically worn fretboard. I've got a much-loved 58 Danelectro U-2 that has perfect and significant fretboard wear. That would be hard to fake. See photos (and yes, somebody put a clear coat of some kind on there - unless that is just "human grease" built up to an unprecedented degree...

 

The paint is another story, maybe somebody took a disc sander to it and then painted it with mayonnaise, that's sort of what it looks like. Hence the name - Dani Mayo. Great sounding guitar and it does have a vibe. Beaters that would be "collectable" IF, can be bargains. If you are looking for the sound and feel rather than the appearance it can be way to go.

 

Since I don't know if our photo attachment feature works yet, here is a link to the album on Flickr: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmViCG8m

[Mike Rivers]

This on is pretty much like I got it at a pawnshop auction in 1967.

[KuruPrionz]

This on is pretty much like I got it at a pawnshop auction in 1967.

 

Nice, I bet it sounds great too!

[Mike Rivers]

This on is pretty much like I got it at a pawnshop auction in 1967. The sticker you can see inside the sound hole isn't from Martin, it's from an axe factory in Maine that a friend of mine visited, and brought it back for me. It reads "The Peerless Axe" and that's about what it's been to me since I've had it.

[GovernorSilver]

I thought this would finally explain the psychology behind customers who pay for reliced guitars, but it just talks about the companies making product to satisfy their demands.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/how-guitar-relicing-took-over-the-world

 

I once read a science fiction short story in which everyone is required to consume products, and the richest people that society had the luxury of simple, worn and scratched furniture. The story in a way predicted the fascination for old, worn things that would arise in younger generations - today's 20-30 year olds who shop for clothes in vintage dress shops, vinyl records, manual typewriters, etc.

[KuruPrionz]

This on is pretty much like I got it at a pawnshop auction in 1967. The sticker you can see inside the sound hole isn't from Martin, it's from an axe factory in Maine that a friend of mine visited, and brought it back for me. It reads "The Peerless Axe" and that's about what it's been to me since I've had it.

 

I would have guessed Martin but the finish doesn't look the same. Very close copy of a D-28 from the front. The fretboard looks like ebony? Ot\herwise I would have guessed a Martin D-18 with rosewood board. Some of them are pretty dark.

Good is good, I always wanted to buy a Martin guitar kit and build it myself but I never got around to it.

[KuruPrionz]

I thought this would finally explain the psychology behind customers who pay for reliced guitars, but it just talks about the companies making product to satisfy their demands.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/how-guitar-relicing-took-over-the-world

 

I once read a science fiction short story in which everyone is required to consume products, and the richest people that society had the luxury of simple, worn and scratched furniture. The story in a way predicted the fascination for old, worn things that would arise in younger generations - today's 20-30 year olds who shop for clothes in vintage dress shops, vinyl records, manual typewriters, etc.

 

 

I was in Goodwill yesterday and two young men were discussing the 8mm movie camera they were looking at, key wound so all manual.

I let them be, it was probably under $5 and who knows why they wanted it. Pretty hard to find the film, get it developed and hook up with a film editing machine to make a movie that looks like crap (but it's VINTAGE crap!!!!!).

[Nathanael_I]

I'm with you Craig, I don't get it. I'm a "buy really nice stuff and try to keep it mint" guy. The musicians I know are all playing real vintage stuff that looks worn because it is, or are playing clean gear. Maybe people are buying them for decoration, wall displays, etc. Most pianos are "PSO's" (Piano Shaped Objects) meant to show visitors your good taste and fat wallet. Apparently a large percentage of Steinways go into homes to be "statement" furniture and not to be played daily. I suppose I really am the opposite of the "fake vintage" since I'm generally not even interested in real vintage stuff. I'm more curious about what is the best available today, and what sounds can be made with that vs. recreating something from the past. But it's just an aesthetic choice on my part. There are certainly producers and musicians who get hired because they can make some historically informed sound correctly. I'm not sure these relics actually help with that, though - they just look the part.

[Greg Mein]

Most of my guitars are in pretty good shape and I like to try and keep them that way. A couple have been through a lot however. My '76 Goldtop suffered through my youthful drunken years and has the scars and wear to prove it. Then there's the Fender Dreadnought style acoustic I bought new for $150 while living in Odessa, Tx back in 1980. It suffered at my own hands and in later years became the guitar the kids/grandkids were allowed to play with. I actually changed the strings on it last week for the first time in years and was marveling at how good it sounded and how easily it plays. My '96 AmStd Tele is a bit roughed up from extensive gigging also.

 

Just an hour ago I sold an Ibanez RG(yadayada) that I've had since 2008. It was in pristine condition because I backed out of the project I was going to use it for soon after acquiring it and never used it for anything else. In this case that was helpful for resale value.

 

It's for certain that if I was going to buy a new guitar, I want that thing to be in immaculate condition.

[GovernorSilver]

I thought this would finally explain the psychology behind customers who pay for reliced guitars, but it just talks about the companies making product to satisfy their demands.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/how-guitar-relicing-took-over-the-world

 

I once read a science fiction short story in which everyone is required to consume products, and the richest people that society had the luxury of simple, worn and scratched furniture. The story in a way predicted the fascination for old, worn things that would arise in younger generations - today's 20-30 year olds who shop for clothes in vintage dress shops, vinyl records, manual typewriters, etc.

 

 

I was in Goodwill yesterday and two young men were discussing the 8mm movie camera they were looking at, key wound so all manual.

I let them be, it was probably under $5 and who knows why they wanted it. Pretty hard to find the film, get it developed and hook up with a film editing machine to make a movie that looks like crap (but it's VINTAGE crap!!!!!).

 

Decades after you and I are dead of old age, young people will turn up their noses at anything old and only go for slick, futuristic looking stuff. The pendulum will swing back to what it was in the 80s when Superstrats like the Ibanez, Charvel, etc, and futuristic axes like the Steinberger. were in and vintage guitars were not. And FX processors had to be the state of the art rackmount ones, not crummy fuzz pedals and analog delays.

 

Those young men will become old men posting on forums asking why young people get scratch/dented up guitars all fixed up and looking shiny and new.

[KuruPrionz]

I thought this would finally explain the psychology behind customers who pay for reliced guitars, but it just talks about the companies making product to satisfy their demands.

 

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/how-guitar-relicing-took-over-the-world

 

I once read a science fiction short story in which everyone is required to consume products, and the richest people that society had the luxury of simple, worn and scratched furniture. The story in a way predicted the fascination for old, worn things that would arise in younger generations - today's 20-30 year olds who shop for clothes in vintage dress shops, vinyl records, manual typewriters, etc.

 

 

I was in Goodwill yesterday and two young men were discussing the 8mm movie camera they were looking at, key wound so all manual.

I let them be, it was probably under $5 and who knows why they wanted it. Pretty hard to find the film, get it developed and hook up with a film editing machine to make a movie that looks like crap (but it's VINTAGE crap!!!!!).

 

Decades after you and I are dead of old age, young people will turn up their noses at anything old and only go for slick, futuristic looking stuff. The pendulum will swing back to what it was in the 80s when Superstrats like the Ibanez, Charvel, etc, and futuristic axes like the Steinberger. were in and vintage guitars were not. And FX processors had to be the state of the art rackmount ones, not crummy fuzz pedals and analog delays.

 

Those young men will become old men posting on forums asking why young people get scratch/dented up guitars all fixed up and looking shiny and new.

 

Guitars will be 3d holographic projections that play. In fact, many artists will go on tour as holographic projections, from the comfort of their living quarters.

And some of them will never actually be seen in public.

 

For all that, it will still be about the beat.

[Anderton]

Decades after you and I are dead of old age, young people will turn up their noses at anything old and only go for slick, futuristic looking stuff. The pendulum will swing back to what it was in the 80s when Superstrats like the Ibanez, Charvel, etc, and futuristic axes like the Steinberger. were in and vintage guitars were not. And FX processors had to be the state of the art rackmount ones, not crummy fuzz pedals and analog delays.

 

Those young men will become old men posting on forums asking why young people get scratch/dented up guitars all fixed up and looking shiny and new.

 

I think you've hit upon something deeper, the need people have for something "new and different." What threw me off the scent is that in this case, "old" is new and different.

[GovernorSilver]

 

Guitars will be 3d holographic projections that play. In fact, many artists will go on tour as holographic projections, from the comfort of their living quarters.

And some of them will never actually be seen in public.

 

For all that, it will still be about the beat.

 

Nice reference to the current state of "live concerts" in the COVID era.

 

I watch them and enjoy them, but man I sure miss being at the actual concert venue, hanging with my buddies and feeling the energy of the room.