Playing with guitarists and the theory disconnect....

[Bosendorphen]

It works the other way as well. For most of my piano playing life, I could not solo on a blues progression. I was trying to approach it like a piece of "regular" music: play the chord tones and the diatonic steps between chord tones. But it didn't sound like the blues. I had to forget what I had been taught. Things started working out much better when I learned to play pentatonic scales regardless of the chord at any given measure. I had to learn what most guitarist do routinely: play "in the box".

Me, too.

 

With keys I had to/still have to work a decent amount on my blues voicings and soloing. On guitar, I have to work NOT to go there.

 

Way interestingly, all the guitar playing I've been doing over the past year or so - hours every day - has most definitely had a noticeable (I believe positive) effect on my keyboard playing. I seem to be feeling it mostly in touch and voicing.

 

dB

For me playing blues licks on keyboard has come naturally since I was probably 9 and started composing. On guitar oddly I gravitate towards more modal playing. It's also funkier. And my timing in guitar is more on the beat than my keyboard playing. I tend to play ahead of the beat (rush) a bit on keyboard. On guitar I'm usually spot on. Weird since I've been playing piano longer (almost 57 years) than guitar (48).

[GovernorSilver]

Speaking of notation, when a local guitarist organized a performance of In C by Terry Riley, he handed out sheet music in standard notation. I'm sure the bassoonist, violinist, double bassists, were all very thankful that he didn't hand out the music in guitar tablature instead.

 

I've seen him hand out sheet music for newly composed tunes on his jazz gigs too.

 

Speaking of blues, my first piano teachers were my uncles. We didn't grow up in that culture, so my uncles couldn't teach me a thing about blues. I played keys a bit in high school, and while there were some talented kids, none of them showed any blues background either. It was the 80s, so kids were playing 80s rock and pop like The Cure, Oingo Boingo, Depeche Mode, etc. The most skilled ones were playing Rush and some jazz fusion. Later when I was studying guitar and jazz, one of my mentors said I should listen to Blind Lemon Jefferson. Sadly, I was too immature and impatient, as Blind Lemon was from the time of scratch old records - I had no appreciation for the mojo of old-time blues and slide guitar. Then I got it into my head that if I learned blues licks, it would turn me into one of those rock guys who sound bad (to my ears) when they try to play jazz.

 

These days, I have so much more appreciation for blues. Love stealing licks from Blind Lemon and Elmore James, and there's some hot young blood on the scene like Kingfish Ingram, who has killer pipes to go with the killer guitar skills. And of course there are some really good blues key players here.

[Devnor]

My HS ran an elective course "music theory" for years until the teacher transferred elsewhere. We had a few band geeks and some of my parents piano students, but most everyone playing in garage bands took the course. My teacher, Mrs Graham was just fantastic. Interval training, 4 part harmony, scales and writing all this stuff out. Graham busted me on an assignment to create an original composition. I pulled some sheet music from the very back of my Dad's music file that looked obscure and simple enough. My Dad was THE piano teacher in town so she was excited to see what I created. She gets about 8 bars in, says I know this then proceeds to play the rest of the piece - filling it with flourishes. Then she told my Mom.

 

Skills learned were used in all our little cover bands as worked out the tunes, vocal harmony and originals. When we got stuck someone might ask "what would Ms Graham do?" These days things are much different you just sing what's on the record, youtube or if it's an original, whatever sounds cool. I've been pretty fortunate many of my fellow musicians have a pretty good grasp on this stuff or at least, enough to get then thru figuring out their backing vox to working for the weekend.

[El Lobo]

I find it very frustrating to be routinely stymied in my efforts to communicate musical ideas with guitar players. "Play an Fm chord." "I don't know what that is." "Play an F note and the minor third." "What's a minor third?" "Can you simultaneously play an F note and an Ab note?" "Do you mean like this?" (showing me his fingers arranged on the fretboard while playing neither an F or an Ab).

I'm having a very hard time accepting that people are seriously trying to play music with guitarists who don't know what an Fm chord is. And from the earlier post, playing with a guitarist who doesn't know what "1-4-5 in G" means or how to play a 12-bar blues in E without a chord sheet. I'm a weekend warrior, barely above amateur or hobbyist myself, but if I was rehearsing or in a jam with somebody who, for example, didn't know what an Fm chord was, I'd ask them to leave. I just can't get my head around playing with people who don't know even the most basic stuff about playing their instrument. Don't know what a minor third is? Go learn about chords and come back when you can play a progression with a diminished chord or a flat or sharp 9 in it. Geez.

[Baldwin Funster]

It seems pretty easy to find a guitarist that doesn't really know music. It seems pointless to indict all guitarists as being like this. Furthermore every body that shows up with a guitar that can only play cold shot but doesn't know an Fm chord isn't really a guitarist. There are plenty of keyboardist that only know a couple of bits too. Shall we make sweeping accusations about keyboardists?

[Dave Bryce]

Tim Pierce videos for me.

 

dB

Tim has great enthusiasm, a wealth of experience across the musical board and is a good teacher. That last one is so important! I've watched tutorial vids from some guitar greats like Mayer and Bonamassa and was thoroughly confused. Not everyone can teach effectively (and that's fine.)

Tim is also a friend of mine, so learning from his lessons is really comfortable for me.

 

I was even the "practice dummy" for him a few years back while he was trying to figure out how to do the lessons - we shot a coupke of sessions with him trying to show me stuff and me being filmed trying to pick it up.

 

dB

[jazzpiano88]

I was listening to the Elecktric Band tribute to Chick and they told the old joke:

Q: How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?

A: Put a chart in front of him

[BbAltered]

I'm having a very hard time accepting that people are seriously trying to play music with guitarists who don't know what an Fm chord is. And from the earlier post, playing with a guitarist who doesn't know what "1-4-5 in G" means or how to play a 12-bar blues in E without a chord sheet.

 

I should acknowledge that I do a lot of "social jams" with various people that I don't think of as "seriously trying to play music". But one important thing I have learned from these encounters is I never want to suggest to the others that they are not serious musicians or that they lack a solid musical foundation, or even could benefit from some additional study. This kind of talk always causes hurt feelings and someone stomping out of the room slamming the door. And I can also confirm that every single one of the guitar players I have played with socially will at some point turn to me a say (without a hint of irony) "hey we sound really good. We should form a band. My friend down at the Drunken Clam will give us a gig." I have only one response: "I'm enjoying your playing. This is a lot of fun."

 

I have one guitar-playing friend that I gig regularly with - with whom I "seriously try to play music". I've never tried it, but I am not sure he could pass the Fm test. I do know his playing gets a lot quieter when he is given a chord chart (just chords, no notation), and I have heard him describe rhythms using "bang-bang-boom" explanations rather than referring to measure and beat. His solos work well over blues, not so much over rhythm changes. ymmv

[timwat]

Everyone playing an instrument is on a journey. You're right not to hurt others' feelings unnecessarily. I'm grateful for the advanced players that were patient and gracious to me on my journey. Doesn't mean they wanted to play with me the next time, but many made sure I felt welcome and encouraged.

[jazzpiano88]

Everyone playing an instrument is on a journey....

 

In a philosophical sense, I'd agree with you, although I disagree that playing an instrument makes it inclusive.

That is, some people who play instruments are not on a journey. Unless you have have a meta physical theory that elevates humans' instrument use to a being above that of non-users.

[timwat]

Respectfully, that wasn't quite what I meant - I guess I was just thinking that the folks who play instruments are each on their own slow journey of getting better - and that often where one is at is significantly different than where another is at (especially when they meet at jam sessions). But that wasn't intended as a universal truth without exception. Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding the point you're making. Sorry.

[GovernorSilver]

Tim Pierce videos for me.

 

dB

Tim has great enthusiasm, a wealth of experience across the musical board and is a good teacher. That last one is so important! I've watched tutorial vids from some guitar greats like Mayer and Bonamassa and was thoroughly confused. Not everyone can teach effectively (and that's fine.)

Tim is also a friend of mine, so learning from his lessons is really comfortable for me.

 

I was even the "practice dummy" for him a few years back while he was trying to figure out how to do the lessons - we shot a coupke of sessions with him trying to show me stuff and me being filmed trying to pick it up.

 

dB

 

What a privilege to be able to learn guitar from him!

 

Loved the video he did with Jay Graydon. I could only play the double stop bends on my Tele because the other guitars have 010 or heavier strings. Well, maybe I can do them on my new Jazzmaster as it also has 009 strings. And that bend on the 2nd fret is just nasty!

 

Apparently Jay's solo was picked to be The One because he got the closest to the blues feel that Walter and Donald wanted.

 

[video:youtube]

[El Lobo]

Gift for guitar players:

[Adam Burgess]

I"m really comfortable with reading, or ear stuff. So are many players. I can say to a good guitarist, 'just play a bit of that, or like that guy', and they do it.

 

Went back home for a holiday a few years back, and was quite comfortable jumping in and lead/conduct a pit band for a last minute theatre thing. Maybe 800 seats. Alien keyboard and band, and arrangements etc... I didn"t really have to do much. Even the guitarist could read properly ;-)

 

I know a top Sax player (played with A list artists, who can"t read a note, and barely knows the notes on the horn) but his ear to finger thing is so quick. His mind is set up for hearing the line once (usually from I guess, the MD keys or guitar player) and knowing it. The articulation and tightness come when he hears the trumpet guy.

 

I guess, as a band leader/conductor, I"d reply to a question with the easiest way of communication. Telling one of my favorite guitarists the V I IVm thing, he"d be fine with, others just 'know" and are so fast. Others read properly, ie read ahead, knowing which position he needs to be in a few bars early to get to the end of the phrase, or whatever. Also not afraid to ask the reading bass player to tell the non-reading guitarist how to place something. They know better than my 10 guitar open chords.

[Reezekeys]

I suspect those of us making a living from playing music (or trying to!) are looking at this thread with bemusement; I know I am. Everybody in my world, including guitarists, knows what an Fm chord or a I - IV - V progression is. We like to work and we have bills to pay.

 

For sure there are examples of musical freaks of nature, amazing players that can't read, don't know theory, or have limited ability as an instrumentalist. Then there are amateurs that can't read, don't know theory, or have limited ability as an instrumentalist. I'll go out on a limb and say there are many more of the latter than the former!

[Baldwin Funster]

What's an Fm chord?

[El Lobo]

Chord? What's that?

[ProfD]

Respectfully, that wasn't quite what I meant - I guess I was just thinking that the folks who play instruments are each on their own slow journey of getting better - and that often where one is at is significantly different than where another is at (especially when they meet at jam sessions). But that wasn't intended as a universal truth without exception. Or perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding the point you're making. Sorry.

Brotha Tim, your sentiment is in the right place.

 

For a long time, jam sessions were the place to musically get your azz kicked, learn and grow. It forced musicians to get better and/or accept their reality as a pro, semi-pro, amateur, hack, hobbyist, etc.

 

Again, this goes back to playing with similarly skilled and/or like-minded musicians.

 

It's almost impossible to get "Giant Steps" out of someone who has little to no interest in it and/or is more comfortable playing something else or "simple" music.

 

There are varying levels of ability when it comes to playing music. There is no one size fits all.

[El Lobo]

It's almost impossible to get "Giant Steps" out of someone who has little to no interest in it and/or is more comfortable playing something else or "simple" music.

Yup. Not from me. I don't listen to jazz and I don't play it and I don't go to jazz jams. But in a rock/blues jam, call any rock or R&B or blues tune from about the late 50's through maybe early 80's and I'm all over it. We are what we listen to and like to play. Different genres for different folks. Chacun à son goût. Each to his (or her) own taste.

[elif]

I have another kind of a gutiar player problem. I'm playing with a person I've known a long time and for whom I have immense respect in more ways than music. He has a really good ear, has lots of chops, is always prepared and is very easy to work with. He does not read, though he did plod his way through a chart note-by-note without complaint to learn a part (which I will never ask him to do again). The thing is, when he solos, he will often not alter his line to follow a chord change. I wince a little bit everytime it happens and I'm dissapointed that it's the kind of thing that would make me not want to record with him (or else write tunes that don't have interesting chord changes over the solo section). I've wanted to bring this up with him for some time but don't want to risk our friendship and/or alter our working relationship because of what could come off as condescending, etc.

 

Has anyone any suggestions on how to do this?

 

 

Here's a YT link of what he was doing in 1983. This is not blues or the usual rock fare. Sometimes it sounds like Dixie Dregs, sometimes Yes, sometimes Eric Johnson. BTW, we don't play anything like this. (horn band, Soulive, Stanton Moore, Maceo, etc.)

 

[jazzpiano88]

I have another kind of a gutiar player problem. I'm playing with a person I've known a long time and for whom I have immense respect in more ways than music. He has a really good ear, has lots of chops, is always prepared and is very easy to work with. He does not read, though he did plod his way through a chart note-by-note without complaint to learn a part (which I will never ask him to do again). The thing is, when he solos, he will often not alter his line to follow a chord change. I wince a little bit everytime it happens and I'm dissapointed that it's the kind of thing that would make me not want to record with him (or else write tunes that don't have interesting chord changes over the solo section). I've wanted to bring this up with him for some time but don't want to risk our friendship and/or alter our working relationship because of what could come off as condescending, etc.

 

Has anyone any suggestions on how to do this?

 

 

Here's a YT link of what he was doing in 1983. This is not blues or the usual rock fare. Sometimes it sounds like Dixie Dregs, sometimes Yes, sometimes Eric Johnson. BTW, we don't play anything like this. (horn band, Soulive, Stanton Moore, Maceo, etc.)

 

 

From the recording he sounds excellent. My guess is that he hasn't really focused much on thinking out the harmony of improvised lines over the chord changes in advance. He might be falling back on learned licks. You might suggest some alterations to broaden his palette, say something like "What do you think about going to this Dminor scale on this chord change since your C# note in your solo kind of clashes."

[GovernorSilver]

When I play with my friend's band, she just let me know when I play notes that clash with the music, because we have a mutual understanding that it's her band, her songs, and I'm just helping out.

 

If I have somebody else play on a project that I started, it's up to me as the leader to tell the other person "I'm sorry but I'm hearing some clashing between what you're playing and the chord changes". I would dread that situation because it's awkward, but it'd be even more embarrassing to let family and other friends hear that too.

 

I met someone on another forum who is a student of Jon Herrington, Steely Dan guitarist. Herrington works out a fair number of his Steely Dan solos in advance and puts in the effort to perfect them, because his mindset is to keep his main client (Donald Fagen) happy and to put on a good show for the other customers (people buying tickets to Steely Dan shows). His EarIQ courses on TrueFire detail how he goes about navigating chord changes and crafting the right type of solo for each situation.

 

Good luck with that situation.

[KuruPrionz]

The education process is profoundly different - keyboardists are far more likely to have had music lessons from an early age and guitarists not so much. There is much about American guitar music that would be cumbersome to write in European notation - which originally was intended for keyboards that made one note when a key is pressed.

 

I learned a great deal watching other guitarists play. Very common way for guitarists to share knowledge, whether intentional or not. Most of the time, the fretboard is on full frontal display, I've gotten through pickup gigs on guitar and bass just by watching the other guitarist's hands. It is more difficult to find a good view angle for that on keyboards, especially if you are also seated at a keyboard. Two side by side on the same keyboard is just about the only realistic way to pass on music visually with keyboard instruments. That could get awkward.

 

I listen to jazz and love it but I don't play it and I don't take on gigs that require it. Some of my musical circle think I can play jazz well but it is "jazzy", not jazz and there is a huge difference. I respect it and leave that for others. We can't all do everything.

 

I played bass for Bo Diddley once and he knew about 5 licks in E. If the song was in G he put a capo at the third fret and played the same licks. He packed the place, put on a great show, wrote Who Do You Love? and is an iconic pioneer of American rock and roll music. The art and science was in the Grooves and the Grooves were smokin'. He would not have known how to play all the "augminished demented" chords and he didn't need to, so he didn't.

[GovernorSilver]

This app may be of use to guitarists who struggle with connecting the ear to fretboard notes - I find the app works well for acoustic viola too, after doing the calibration process:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/solo-fretboard-visualization/id1537057699

 

Tom Quayle explaining and demoing the app

[video:youtube]

[ralphden]

Anyone can learn, the main desire. Start with simple chords, Am, C,E, etc. Buy ion new strings, they are very soft and do not cut your fingertips. Remember the location of your fingers on each chord, develop your hand memory and everything will work out. The most difficult stage is filling the battle, but it is not difficult here either. Hold all the strings without pressing them to the neck, the sound should be muffled and look for a rhythm with the help of a hand movement "up", "down". Personally, I find it more interesting to play by sheet music, there are more opportunities to choose your favorite music in different versions. Well, actually, there is nothing more to add, if it does not work, then you should turn to the guitar tab and this should help you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____________________________________________________________

blues guitar tab

[GovernorSilver]

A guitarist attempts to explain the Barry Harris 6th Diminished Scale - more focus on the harmony built off the scale than typical "here are some scale exercises that will turn you into Joe Pass" guitar nonsense. The reactions have been varied and entertaining, to say the least.

 

[video:youtube]

[synthizen2]

I should acknowledge that I do a lot of "social jams" with various people that I don't think of as "seriously trying to play music". But one important thing I have learned from these encounters is I never want to suggest to the others that they are not serious musicians or that they lack a solid musical foundation, or even could benefit from some additional study. This kind of talk always causes hurt feelings and someone stomping out of the room slamming the door.

 

While I certainly would never suggest to any guitarist that they "lack a solid musical foundation"... If you are having difficulty communicating musical ideas and discipline with your guitarist, for fear of them throwing a temper tantrum and storming out of the room... perhaps this person is in the wrong business.

 

Back when I was in a Bob Seger tribute about 6-7 years ago, our bass-player/band-leader would often comment to me (talking about himself and the guitarists) that "we only know patterns on our fretboards, but you seem to know a lot about music theory"... I retorted back to him, "Well, in essence, I am memorizing patterns on my keyboard, too. The music-theory knowledge is just an added benefit, but not essential to what we're trying to do here".

[MikeT156]

Back in the dark ages, there were a ton of self-taught musicians that didn't have a firm grasp on theory. I played in bands where bass players didn't know their scales and play notes (quarter notes or longer) that were not musically correct) Example, using an F instead of an F Sharp in the key of G. Typically a BASS player should stick with the BASICS and leave the wandering to others. Drums and Bass must be solid in order for the rest of the band to make things more musical. Many people could play well in certain keys they were comfortable, but would go off the rails when challenged with other keys. It was very common.

 

Musicians that have had solid musical training, can read music and develop- their sight reading skills are better all-around musicians than those that don"t.

[The Real MC]

I appreciate musicians with a solid knowledge of theory. But a band of accomplished musicians does not always equate to success. I was in a band with accomplished musicians years ago, and even though we played songs that would appeal to the dancers we never did draw much of a crowd.

 

But a chain is only as strong as its weakest link... a player (not just guitar players) with inferior skills can break a band. Especially when cronyism or nepotism are involved.

[stoken6]

I find it unhelpful to view musical theory through the prism of snobbery. For me, it's a timesaver: "The chords at the end of the bridge? 2-5-1 in Eb, 2-5-1 in Db, count two beats and in on the Bbm11". If a bandmate can read music, I can send them charts in advance, and they can understand what I'm trying to communicate, as well as prepare in advance.

 

I enjoyed that Barry Harris analysis more than I was expecting - thanks for posting.

 

Cheers, Mike.