Vicount Legends '70 - Nord Grand killer ?

[ElmerJFudd]

There"s a lot of room inside the Legend 70svb other than the flat top for a synth and or organ or laptop, you could probably stick a Mac mini in there or other small form factor computer as another sound source.

[AnotherScott]

I tried it last night from both the E.Piano and Sounds modules and, no, I could not trigger a restrike until I fully released the key; so, same behavior as standard 2-sensor.

Interesting. So that's 0 for 3... your Viscount, and the Numa and Dexibell models I played. If it happened on one, I'd say defective. Two could be coincidentally defective the same way, poor quality control. Three? I think we may be talking about a design flaw. I wonder if *anyone* has one of these "three sensor" boards that actually provides the behavior of a third sensor.

 

ETA: I remembered I actually started a thread about this in 2018! It's at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2856116/Has_anyone_played_a_3_Sensor_F - and the only board anyone said worked right was the Studiologic SL88 Studio. But if even ONE model works, at least the design CAN work. Now if only we could figure out why so many DON'T work. (unless the people reporting success were mistaken, which is not impossible.)

 

According to the manual you can use, in addition to the knob on the panel: 1) the Legend70s editor app; 2) an MIDI patch change command from a connected device/board; 3) foot pedals - there are jacks that can be used for "forward/backward" operations.

To me, Forward/Back is no better than a scroll wheel. I need a certain amount of random access to my patches. But an iPad or smartphone could do the trick. It's just one more thing to have to deal with, though, on a board with no programmable patch select buttons.

[jeffincltnc]

I played a Nord Grand for about 1/2 hour today and I have to say the action, and finger-to-ear connection is very good. I know there will always be fans and detractors but it's a really, really good stage piano. I would venture to say that the bar for "Nord Grand Killer" is a pretty high mark.

[ElmerJFudd]

I played a Nord Grand for about 1/2 hour today and I have to say the action, and finger-to-ear connection is very good. I know there will always be fans and detractors but it's a really, really good stage piano. I would venture to say that the bar for "Nord Grand Killer" is a pretty high mark.

 

It's a very expensive board, the Grand. And we know how big a difference getting Kawai to supply them an action made.

[bjosko]

I played a Nord Grand for about 1/2 hour today and I have to say the action, and finger-to-ear connection is very good. I know there will always be fans and detractors but it's a really, really good stage piano. I would venture to say that the bar for "Nord Grand Killer" is a pretty high mark.

 

Yep, sorry, that was me. I thought at first that it had something similare key mechanism with the NG. Don"t know why, I think it was my first though when I saw the shape on it

I need to test a NG someday soon. But the Viscount still offer a lot more sound variations. I love the retro shape of it, it have place for a second keyboard, laptop or monitors on top, and it isn"t red.

 

What I haven"t seen on the Viscount are a drive or amp sim other than on the eletric piano ( that sound great BTW). What about the clavinet part? And the wah, is it possible to control it from a pedal ?

 

Would love to replace my Nord Stage with a Viscount Compact 73 and put my Mojo61 on top, but I would miss the synth and sample part from the NS.

[bjosko]

Well, downloaded the manual (bad sign for my wallet), and the Viscount have an Amp thing in the effect section, and the wah can be controlled from a foot controller.

My only excuse now are to find some useful Ios replacements for the sounds I am missing from my Nord. Auch

[Spider76]

Great comparison, thanks!

Just curious about this remark:

[*]Build quality is top-drawer on both boards -- they're both Italian, for goodness sake.

 

The SV2 is "italian"?

[Brad Kaenel]

Great comparison, thanks!

Just curious about this remark:

[*]Build quality is top-drawer on both boards -- they're both Italian, for goodness sake.

 

The SV2 is "italian"?

 

As I understand it, Korg has a division in Italy, and it was this design group that developed the SV pianos.

[Brad Kaenel]

Great review, Brad. Very useful comparison.

 

And now James Pavel Shawcross weighs in with his own epic comparison of the Legend 70s, the Seven, and the SV2 (and all THREE of them are Italian! )

 

 

[video:youtube]

[Doerfler]

Great comparison, thanks!

Just curious about this remark:

[*]Build quality is top-drawer on both boards -- they're both Italian, for goodness sake.

 

The SV2 is "italian"?

 

As I understand it, Korg has a division in Italy, and it was this design group that developed the SV pianos.

 

same group also developed the Korg Vox Continental series (unless Scott is right and they didn't)

[AnotherScott]

Hmmm... I don't think Korg Italy developed the Vox. But they did develop all the PA series arrangers.

[stoken6]

unless Scott is right

Scott is always right.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

unless Scott is right

Scott is always right.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Thanks. Now please explain that to my gf.

[Doerfler]

Thanks. Now please explain that to my gf.

hey, at least you have a gf.

 

I have given up trying to remember why I thought the Voxen were from Italy. Now, back to our original programming.

[Spider76]

Uhm...couldn't find any conclusive info about that (and I'm Italian) but I think only the speakers from K-Array are made in Italy, and Korg licensed those for use in the ARP 2600 and SV-2S.

 

I know Korg has a big Italian division, but I don't know if they do instrument design or only distribution.

 

On the other hand, many (most?) old Vox organs were built in Italy, but that was long before Korg acquired the brand, of course.

 

Anyway, I agree that Scott is always right. But his GF more so.

[Brad Kaenel]

The (new? customized?) 3-sensor TP100 keybed is much more playable than any other implementation I've played in a Nord, et.al.

The boards I've played with the 3-sensor TP-100 have definitely felt better to me than the original... but oddly, I have not been able to get 3-sensor behavior out of them. Have you tried that on the Legend, and does it work? That is, can you play a note, lift the key up part way (not enough to actually silence the note) and then restrike the note without having silenced it first (without using the sustain pedal)?

 

I tried it last night from both the E.Piano and Sounds modules and, no, I could not trigger a restrike until I fully released the key; so, same behavior as standard 2-sensor. I presume that behavior is a software issue, rather than a hardware one (?).

 

Scott: is this the behavior you would expect from a correctly-implemented 3-sensor keybed? Viscount claims all 3 sensors are, in fact, implemented, allowing repeated notes without fully releasing the key. This is my experiment, which seems to bear them out...

 

short video: Legend 70s 3-sensor TP-100 experiment

[AnotherScott]

The (new? customized?) 3-sensor TP100 keybed is much more playable than any other implementation I've played in a Nord, et.al.

The boards I've played with the 3-sensor TP-100 have definitely felt better to me than the original... but oddly, I have not been able to get 3-sensor behavior out of them. Have you tried that on the Legend, and does it work? That is, can you play a note, lift the key up part way (not enough to actually silence the note) and then restrike the note without having silenced it first (without using the sustain pedal)?

 

I tried it last night from both the E.Piano and Sounds modules and, no, I could not trigger a restrike until I fully released the key; so, same behavior as standard 2-sensor. I presume that behavior is a software issue, rather than a hardware one (?).

 

Scott: is this the behavior you would expect from a correctly-implemented 3-sensor keybed? Viscount claims all 3 sensors are, in fact, implemented, allowing repeated notes without fully releasing the key. This is my experiment, which seems to bear them out...

 

short video: Legend 70s 3-sensor TP-100 experiment

The video doesn't demonstrate the behavior we're talking about, so I can't tell. The question isn't whether you can restrike a note without fully lifting it, the question is whether you and restrike a note without first lifting it to whatever height silences it. (You have to test with no sustain pedal use, of course, since the pedal allows you to completely lift off a note and still not silence it!) Try duplicating the test much more slowly. The goal is to not to restrike the key quickly, the goal is to restrike the key without hearing silence in between your strikes. The more slowly you do it, the easier it will be to hear. You need to figure out how high you need to lift a key to silence it, then just lift as close as you can to that point without actually silencing it, and then press the key down again and see whether or not it sounds.

[confidence]

Is this to try and replicate the escapement action of a grand piano?

 

Are there any electro-acoustic keyboard instruments that can do what you're describing? It's a long time since I played a real Rhodes and I can't remember. Also can't say it's something I ever stopped to find out.

 

Just wondering whether the whole thing has any actual relevance beyond the "I Want A Keyboard That's EXACTLY Like An Acoustic Piano But Weighs Less" market segment - which I wouldn't have thought was the main intended audience of the Legend 70s anyway. It seems more like a retro-Rhodes/Wurlitzer/etc. thing with a bit of piano thrown in as well.

[AnotherScott]

I don't think a triple sensor is all that important, personally. But if a board is touting it, it should work. ;-)

[bjosko]

@AnotherScott ; I just tested this, and you need to return to the note off switch about 2/3 way up to be able to restrike the note.

So speed trills is a bit more challengingâ¦

 

Except that, light, but very inspiring to play on, and @Confidence, in my option the Legends strongest point is the AP, but one keyboards touch can"t fit all styles.

They have the Artist W model that is even more AP oriented with graded wood keys, still not up there in Kawai class I think ( have not tried any of them), but than I think you will sacrifice some of the EP feel.

[confidence]

I don't think a triple sensor is all that important, personally. But if a board is touting it, it should work. ;-)

 

Is this the specific claim being made by all these triple-sensor action manufacturers though? Or are they just selling the action as being generally more responsive?

[confidence]

@Confidence, in my option the Legends strongest point is the AP, but one keyboards touch can"t fit all styles.

 

That's interesting. Why have they gone to so much trouble to make it look like a neo-Rhodes/Wurly then? And even named it as such . . .

[AnotherScott]

I don't think a triple sensor is all that important, personally. But if a board is touting it, it should work. ;-)

 

Is this the specific claim being made by all these triple-sensor action manufacturers though? Or are they just selling the action as being generally more responsive?

My question would be, in what way could a triple sensor be more responsive, if it did not permit this behavior? What would it do, what would it enable/permit that could not be done just as well with two sensors? If a board is marketed as having three sensors as a selling point, and it can't do this, if there is some other benefit, I'd think it should be somehow described/defined somewhere.

[confidence]

I don't know the answer to that question. I suppose the question that might illuminate it though is: What do the manufacturers themselves say? In their blurbs selling boards on the basis of having triple sensor action, what claims do they make about the supposed advantages?

 

You can always then dispute whether those claims are true, but that's a different thing from judging them according to a claim they never made.

[AnotherScott]

If a feature doesn't provide the benefit associated with it, what does the feature mean at all? If a company comes out with a 73-key version of what had been a 61-key board, there's a basic assumption that those additional 12 keys will actually play notes and not be silent. They don't need to spell that out. The behavior of a third sensor is well known. If a 3-sensor board by design doesn't do what's expected, I think the mfr should explain what it's there for.

[bjosko]

This is a copy from Nord Piano 4 description at nordkeyboars.com

' The exclusive Virtual Hammer Action Technology, introduced with Nord Piano 3, simulates the hammer movements in a Grand Piano delivering outstanding authenticity and dynamic response. The Triple Sensor keybed allows key movements to be determined with stunning precision. The result is a keyboard action that handles dynamic playing with amazing control at any velocity level. '

I do not have a 2 sensor HA keyboard to compare with, but remember reviews told that the 3 sensors technology gave a better keyboard feel.

[ElmerJFudd]

Of course that is Nord marketing language as opposed to a technical explanation of the feature. However it suggests that Nord has done something on their software side to improve the velocity tracking and dynamic control players would experience. It doesn"t necessarily discuss how the presence of a triple sensor is a part of that. What the hardware (presence of the third sensor) is supposed to do is provide greater accuracy as to where the key is in its path. Other manufacturers have suggested that this allows for better tracking of fast repeated notes where the key doesn"t need to make it all the way up to the highest sensor to tell the sound engine a lift has occurred. I presume it also provides more accurate velocity readings in this area of the key throw as well.

[b3plyr]

The Nord Grand really benefits from the Kawai keybed. Also, the triple sensors 'sense' position of the actual hammers - this does make a difference. I really like the playability of the Grand.

[AnotherScott]

This is a copy from Nord Piano 4 description at nordkeyboars.com

' The exclusive Virtual Hammer Action Technology, introduced with Nord Piano 3, simulates the hammer movements in a Grand Piano delivering outstanding authenticity and dynamic response. The Triple Sensor keybed allows key movements to be determined with stunning precision. The result is a keyboard action that handles dynamic playing with amazing control at any velocity level. '

That section continues:

 

Repetitions

 

The Nord Virtual Hammer Action Technology enables you to produce a new note without lifting the key completely. This allows for smoother repetitions as the tone is not completely dampened between the strokes, similar to the fluent transitions possible on a Grand Piano.

The differentiation Nord is making between their "virtual hammer action technology" and the "triple sensor keybed" is ambiguous here, but the part I put in bold require three sensors, and is the behavior I'm discussing. Nord is attributing this to their "virtual hammer action technology" but this behavior exists on every 3-sensor board... except, it seems, possibly some Fatar implementations, where the sensor may be physically there, but for some reason, may not support this behavior...?

 

The Nord web site section continues with...

Extended Triggering Range

 

The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.

There's more ambiguity there, in the phrase I put in bold. It's not actually providing what we would usually call top and bottom triggering. Triggering at the top is used for organ, and does not transmit velocity, so it not something employed on the Nord Piano. What they are presumably trying to say that you can initiate a new note, not just from the top, but also from a relatively lower starting position when desired. It's very much the same as what they talked about above, that it "enables you to produce a new note without lifting the key completely" -- again consistent with the expected third sensor behavior of not having to lift a key so high as to silence it first before being able to retrigger it.

[bjosko]

When searching for it, a rendevouz came up

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2856116/Has_anyone_played_a_3_Sensor_F

 

There are videos out there showing the 3-sensor princip, but I can"t find anything with the Fatar.