Thoughts on current best stage piano + clonewheel options?

[eric]

Hi forum!

 

This post is a little bit out of pandemic boredom and the fact that I've played only three gigs in the past year+. Things are looking up for outdoor gigs in the coming months and hopefully club gigs later in the year. I've been debating a complete rig overhaul as a way of creating energy around getting back to gigs. For those of you that know me, I've been a diehard Nord user and doing a single keyboard rig for a very long time (currently NS3 and had been NS2 before that).

 

Going back to the prior decade, around 1999-2010, I used a two keyboard rig with some variety of weighted board and a clonewheel (RD600 + XB2, S90 + NE2 or NE3, etc.). While I love my single rolling/tilting rig, I'm having a bit of nostalgia for a rootsy piano/organ rig.

 

I'm considering things like Yamaha CP4 + Mojo or Kurzweil something + Hammond something, among other things. This may or may not happen, though it's fun to dream!

 

If you were putting together the killer stage piano + clonewheel rig today, what would you pick and why?

 

Thanks,

Eric

[Mighty Motif Max]

Kurzweil Forte + Hammond SKpro, or Yamaha Montage + Hammond SKpro. Either the Forte or the Montage would have strong pianos, tons of other available sounds, and be very road-worthy. The SK Pro would have current-generation organs based on the XK5, and a good selection of other sounds in case you wanted to bring just that to a small gig.

 

However, IF I wasn't going to be doing orchestral stuff or need more than acoustic pianos, electric pianos, clavinet, and organ, and be happy with whatever extra sounds there were, I would 100% do a Kawai MP7SE + Hammond SK Pro. The MP7SE has an excellent action, a good choice of pianos, pretty good other sounds, and it can have four zones as well plus it has master controller capabilities if you ever did want to add anything to it, with plenty of user setup storage. And the Hammond would have the advantages listed earlier.

 

Just how I would do it.

[jeffincltnc]

Just went through a lot of this consideration --- Depending on the gig, I would pick the two most relevant from my inventory below:

 

Kawai ES920, Nord Stage 3 Compact, Nord Wave 2, Viscount Legend Live

 

ES920 is pretty similar to the MP7SE - same action, lighter weight, built in speakers and only focused on AP/EP playing for me (no organs but see the others on the list)

[ElmerJFudd]

A CP-88 or 73 and SkPro or second hand Sk1 would be a nice combo. Or Kurzweil PC4-73 would work nicely.

[allan_evett]

I suspect that the SK-Pro / CP-88 combo would be a sweet rig. Four to five years back I used an SK-1, 73 and CP4 together. Despite some limitations of the SK-1, the organ engine of the Hammond sounded great with the Yamaha piano Voices. And both current instruments are a step up in versatility.

[eric]

Great ideas so far - thank you! I do have a bit of a soft spot for Yamaha, as I used the S90 for 7-8 years and then S76XS after that, before going full bore on Nords for my live rig. I also am intrigued by Kurzweil. I had a PC3 for a hot moment and thought it was great. Also, the Kawai is another item of interest, having spent a lot of time at NAMM playing these. I'll keep researching and thinking about ways I can change up my rig!

 

Thanks,

Eric

[delete]

I'm having a bit of nostalgia for a rootsy piano/organ rig.

My solution for exactly that when building a new studio this past year was the Nord Stage 3 Compact.

Great Piano & Organ Sounds, complete with Drawbars and Leslie choices.

For the organ, I purchased the "Half Moon Switch" for that old school interaction...

Throw in a synthesizer as well and you have a complete keyboard that should see you through most gigs.

[eric]

I'm having a bit of nostalgia for a rootsy piano/organ rig.

My solution for exactly that when building a new studio this past year was the Nord Stage 3 Compact.

Great Piano & Organ Sounds, complete with Drawbars and Leslie choices.

For the organ, I purchased the "Half Moon Switch" for that old school interaction...

Throw in a synthesizer as well and you have a complete keyboard that should see you through most gigs.

 

Yeah, the Nord Stage 3 Compact is great. It's been my sole gigging keyboard now for around 3 years after moving up from the NS2. I kept one of my NS2 units (88) and have two NS3 Compacts. I've gone to great lengths to squeeze every ounce of capability from these and I can do most any gig and any song with the NS3. It's a deep and capable instrument.

 

I'm looking at simplifying more to a "this board is for the pianos and this board is for the organs" vs. my all-in-one solution that works great. I'm remembering the days when I played old Korg CX-3, Hammond XB-2, etc. over a stage piano and there was something satisfying about having more dedicated instruments rather than making it all happen within one board (which has its strong points too, don't get me wrong).

 

Thanks,

Eric

[ProfD]

I'd like to 2nd Allan's recommendation above. A Yamaha CP88 (bottom) and Hammond (top) would be a nice gig rig for Eric.

[AnotherScott]

I like a piano board with a shallow control surface (or at least one where you can afford to lose access to any controls that are deep), so that the organ above doesn't have to be placed too far above or too far behind the lower keyboard. Also preferred: 5-pin MIDI conectors, 1/4" audio outputs (pretty much goes without saying, but I said it), and speakers (which can be handy for some solo/unplugged things, and also can also increase the realism in playing because of the vibrations you can feel in your fingers). And some readily accessible buttons to call up your most frequently needed sounds. And ideally, an easy way to toggle between its own sounds and acting as a lower manual for the organ above (where the 5-pin MIDI conectors come into play)... which could be determined largely by the MIDI funtionality of the board OR the functionality of the organ above. MIDI functionality could be of additional interest if you're thinking about adding sounds from an iPad or whatever, and want to be able to easily select them from the piano's own front panel. Then it's a matter of what you like the sound and feel of, within whatever price range or weight range you're willing to deal with. And nothing perfectly meets all my specs. ;-)

 

Personally, in current models, depending again on weight/budget constraints, my short list would probably consist of models from Casio, Kawai, and Korg (or on the high end, maybe a Nord Grand), though there are numerous models among them that I haven't yet been able to lay my hands on. No Rolands in my list because I haven't really been able to warm up to their current hammer actions, and I'm also not keen on their Rhodes sounds (and even their SuperNATURAL Acoustic pianos are just okay to me). No Yamahas because all the current models I like have deep control panels (but if I didn't have to lift it, I could easily be tempted by a used CP5). Kurzweils similarly all have deep control panels. If acoustic piano per se is not the priority, Crumar Seven or Viscount Legend 70s could also be interesting choices... two more I haven't had a chance to play but would really like to.

 

The top usual suspect dedicated single-manual clonewheels would be (in order of increasing price) Numa Organ 2, Crumar Mojo 61, Viscount Legend Solo, and Hammond XK-5. But I'm eager to play the new Hammond SK Pro, which even if you don't care about its other sounds, is sonically similar to (but cheaper and lighter than) the XK-5, and has an updated Leslie sim.

 

I guess for piano+organ, my ideal might be the (admittedly speakerless) CP5 (or what the heck, CP1) plus an XK5, probably with a Vent. Top quality sounds and some of the very best actions, it should provide an extremely satisying playing experience. If you want to factor in price and travel weight, my top alternative to that combo might be ES520 and SK Pro.

[jeffincltnc]

I would probably prefer a Yamaha CP-88 over a Kawai ES920 for the feature set, better Rhodes, audio interface and UI, but it's $900 more than the Kawai. I figured having something with built in speakers also has its purpose for convenience. I really like the CP-88 action equally to the Kawai RHIII.

 

I went with the ES920 over the ES520 for the improved sample set and the counterweighted return on the action. It does add +6 lbs weight and +$400 over the ES520.

[drawback]

I"d probably go for a Korg SV273 because I"m nuts about their Rhodes library, and nuts enough to be tired of 'that Yamaha AP sound.' And I may be in a minority here but I have an affinity with the RH3 action. Top it off with a Hammond bare bones clonewheel like an XK1c or XK5, or wait til Guido comes out with that organ controller and run B-3X from it.

[stoken6]

I'm liking a lot about the Hammond SK Pro - great organs and the EPs are nice too. AP is a bit disappointing, so a Yamaha or Kawai underneath is nice. You might need to play Hammond EPs via MIDI from downstairs - but as Scott mentioned, that connection also gives you clonewheel lower manual.

 

If you want a downstairs board that's strong for APs and EPs: Kurzweil Forte (and presumably the newer ones), or Korg SV2 - I found the Korg action "tolerable" as opposed to good, but these things are very subjective. And a Mojo (or Legend, or similar pure-clonewheel) up top.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ProfD]

I'm partial to the Korg SV as a DP however, I recommended the CP88 because brotha E was a Yamaha guy before he got all mad and could only see red.

[eric]

I like a piano board with a shallow control surface (or at least one where you can afford to lose access to any controls that are deep), so that the organ above doesn't have to be placed too far above or too far behind the lower keyboard.

 

I'm with you on this, as my piano/organ rigs of the past have capitalized on this. I can't currently find any pics of the RD600 + XB2 rig (retired in early '00s), but that was a great "close proximity" between the two boards. My S90 + NE2 or NE3 was the next best version of that. Here's a picture of me playing it, probably around 2004 or thereabouts.

 

 

The thing I like about the Yamaha CP4 is all the real estate to set up a rig like this (the top board would just need to sit far enough to the right to avoid the pitch and mod wheels). Yamaha CP1 (need deeper pockets) could be even better.

[jeffincltnc]

I love the vibe of the SV2 but find Korg APs aren't my favorite and also that it's shape and dimensions can be awkward for a 2 tier setup with its curved top.

 

I thought the Rhodes on the CP88 were quite good! I prefer the Yamaha Rhodes over Kawai's by a signficant margin. I like Kawai APs a lot as they are a bit darker and woodier than Yamaha's which always start off a bit too bright for my ears. Excellent for rock context and fine for everything else, and they have great uprights. I think the Kawai SK sample is great for jazzy stuff and with acoustic instruments.

[Adan]

The Crumar Seven and the Viscount 70s give you the ergonomic advantage of the flat top. For some reason in my mind that becomes especially important for a "rootsy" rig, probably because I associate that type of music so closely with splitting hands between piano and organ. I like the SV2 action better than the TP100 of the Seven, and the Seven isn't strong on APs, but it's hard for me not to like the Seven as a package.

 

For a top board, geez, so many good choices, it's really a matter of taste and whether you need synth abilities or can just get by with organ.

[jeffincltnc]

Eric, I tried to buy a couple of "excellent" and "mint" CP4s according to the sellers. I had bid on a couple mostly on Reverb and also on eBay based on what they were actually selling for (not lowballed by any means - the average of what they have been selling for in 2021) and I was not able to get an offer accepted without much higher prices above the market range. There aren't as many CP4s for sale on Reverb or eBay as there used to be, though.

[AnotherScott]

I thought the Rhodes on the CP88 were quite good! I prefer the Yamaha Rhodes over Kawai's by a signficant margin.

The last time I did that comparison was in the days of MOXF vs. MP7... and I liked the MP7 quite a bit more. But Yamaha's CP/YC Rhodes are better than what was in the MOXF, and I think the Kawai MP520/MP920 don't have the editable EQ parameters that the MP7/MP7SE have, so that could possibly alter the result of that comparison, if those are the boards in question.

[eric]

The Crumar Seven and the Viscount 70s give you the ergonomic advantage of the flat top. For some reason in my mind that becomes especially important for a "rootsy" rig, probably because I associate that type of music so closely with splitting hands between piano and organ. I like the SV2 action better than the TP100 of the Seven, and the Seven isn't strong on APs, but it's hard for me not to like the Seven as a package.

 

For a top board, geez, so many good choices, it's really a matter of taste and whether you need synth abilities or can just get by with organ.

 

I like the idea of the Crumar or Viscount and need to learn more about those...that's what I'm talking about for a "rootsy" rig - something like a flat top piano/EP with a clone up top, maybe even my NS3. I was also vaguely considering the idea of a Vintage Vibe sparkly thing.

 

Thanks for all the conversation - very helpful!

 

Eric

[AnotherScott]

I like the idea of the Crumar or Viscount and need to learn more about those...that's what I'm talking about for a "rootsy" rig - something like a flat top piano/EP with a clone up top

For aesthetics/"vibe", yeah, one of those two, or maybe an SV2 or Nord Grand on bottom, and Hammond XK5 on top, or maybe the Mojo 61 or Legend Solo, which at least have the wooden sides. I saw someone had made a wooden top panel for the Viscount, which could be done on the Mojo as well.

[To B3]

I´d go full Crumar: Seven + Mojo (61 if portability is an issue, Classic, if L configuration is possible). All of that if money is not a problem, of course.

[Doerfler]

I was also vaguely considering the idea of a Vintage Vibe sparkly thing.

 

Thanks for all the conversation - very helpful!

 

Eric

 

Get in line with lots of $$$. Current wait time for today's orders is 4 months.

[Paul Harrison]

The top usual suspect dedicated single-manual clonewheels would be (in order of increasing price) Numa Organ 2, Crumar Mojo 61, Viscount Legend Solo, and Hammond XK-5. But I'm eager to play the new Hammond SK Pro, which even if you don't care about its other sounds, is sonically similar to (but cheaper and lighter than) the XK-5, and has an updated Leslie sim.

 

Where it sits pricewise will depend on what part of the world you are in, but for my money, the MAG C1 (single-manual) or C2 (dual-manual), with the HX3 engine and available with inbuilt Mini Vent as an option, is the frontrunner. I used to have a Hammond X3c and XK1c, and a Viscount Legend Solo; I now have a MAG C2.

 

MAG custom organs

[AnotherScott]

Where it sits pricewise will depend on what part of the world you are in, but for my money, the MAG C1 (single-manual) or C2 (dual-manual), with the HX3 engine and available with inbuilt Mini Vent as an option, is the frontrunner.

Ah, I didn't know there was a single manual MAG (and I was assuming the OP wanted single manual). Another interesting possibility, but I'm not sure what availability is like for the U.S..

 

On another note, I may backtrack on my exclusion of Yamaha from my short list due to the deep control surfaces (while also acknowledging that that's probably a bigger concern for me than for most). The CP73/88's patch select buttons are not particularly far back from the keys (not ideal, but not too bad as these things go). If you approach the board with the idea of using all those other nice front panel controls for setting up your sounds, and then use the Live Set buttons to recall them in performance, you may not need to maintain access to the whole panel if you want to draw your top board in closer. Too bad the display is set as far back as it is, though. (Same on the Kawai ES520/ES920, but I think I could manage okay without having gig-access to it.) That could be a problem for Live Set navigation (assuming you're using the board for more than 8 sounds, and so need to change Live Set pages).

 

One of my Ideascale suggestions for the similar YC was to repurpose another button for a bank button, so you could quickly navigate directly from any of the first 8 banks to any other. I was thinking about it for speed (to avoid scrolling), but it could also aid trying to navigate "blind" (without the display). As it is, that may not be ideal, but if the board meets your criteria for sounds, feel, travel weight, and price, it could be a contender. If you go with the 73, it's a bit lighter than the ES520 (no speakers, though), and while I'm not sure which has the better acoustic pianos or the better action, I'm pretty sure the Yamaha would beat the Kawai elsewhere, to the extent that sounds matter. (The 88 version gives you another action to choose from, albeit beyond my personal weight limit.)

 

(Which forum member was it who had that great custom stand where you could slide one of the boards forward or back as needed to get to the lower board's control surface?)

 

ETA: Actually, any board you like the sound and feel of can potentially have its control surface largely covered if you can do your patch selection from an iPad or similar. (Though the aesthetics of a largely covered board is another variable.)

[drawback]

 

(Which forum member was it who had that great custom stand where you could slide one of the boards forward or back as needed to get to the lower board's control surface?)

 

Moe?

[Doerfler]

 

(Which forum member was it who had that great custom stand where you could slide one of the boards forward or back as needed to get to the lower board's control surface?)

 

Moe?

 

 

Indeed, it is Moe.

[Doerfler]

Chiming in here again, if I had a gig today this would be my stage piano/clonewheel option. Don't feel like I want to make any more purchases of this type in the near/not so near future. The CX3 organ in the Continental is good enough, and I'll use a Vent II. If I already owned a Nord Stage 3 compact I would use that instead of the Vox, also with a Ventilator, or maybe not. Heck, Bruce Wahler (who I purchased my original Vent from many years ago) is using Nord keyboards internal leslie sim because it's good enough for 99.9% of the punters. Thanks to Nursers for that.

Not in the photo, Motionsound KP 500 amp.

 

[Tom Williams]

I have a PC3 (with BillW's 7 unit Leslie) atop a Casio PX-5S. If I need a piano that the PC3 has and the PX doesn't offer, I use the PX to drive the PC3 via MIDI; there's still plenty of polyphony and effects left on the PC3 to use it for organ, guitar, etc.

[Paul Harrison]

Where it sits pricewise will depend on what part of the world you are in, but for my money, the MAG C1 (single-manual) or C2 (dual-manual), with the HX3 engine and available with inbuilt Mini Vent as an option, is the frontrunner [among current clonewheels].

Ah, I didn't know there was a single manual MAG (and I was assuming the OP wanted single manual). Another interesting possibility, but I'm not sure what availability is like for the U.S..

 

I bought mine direct from MAG. It took 10 days by FedEx from MAG in Prague, Czechia to me in Adelaide, Australia (a few days longer than usual because of COVID delays at the time), and the personal service from Max Ghirardi at MAG is exemplary.