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Time for another pedantic theory question


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I hesitate asking this here because I may get different answers from everyone (well, not "everyone" - more like anyone that bothers to read beyond this dose of musical academia and answer!). :)

 

Below is a fancy jazz chord. OK I lied; it's a pretty simple Bb minor 7 chord voiced in fourths. Instead of the 5th (F) though, there's a Gb - which is a b13, b6 or #5 depending on however you think it should be spelled, I suppose. I left out the 5th because I like the sound of that voicing.

 

Here's the question: if you were given a chord chart only â IOW, this chord voicing was not notated like it is here, and all you had to go by was a chord symbol: what should this symbol say for you to know to voice the chord the way I have it here? The best I can come up with is "Bbmin7 (b13 omit 5)." Is there a better, clearer way to spell this that I'm missing?

 

Knowing where these theory threads can go, I'm a little nervous.... but hopeful. Is there a consensus? Yes I'm pretty weak on this stuff. My concern with writing out a chart is practical. I want to make it easy to read and obvious. And no, there is no room on the page to write out the chord voicing. Thanks... I think (hope!!). :laugh:

 

Bb-chord-smaller.jpg

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I'd like to know the answer too, Reeze.

 

I would write it is as Gb (add 9)/Bflat, and hope that whoever is comping would make that beautiful quartal shape that you wrote. Part of the problem, I think is just that the most common idea in harmony is of a major or minor triad (and with good reason). But then some beautiful quartal and quintal voicings get awkward names.

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In my book that's a Gb mu major. Gbadd2/Bb in longhand. But, as ever, context is everything. If your chord is functioning as a minor (in a ii-V-I, for example) then my chord naming might not be appropriate.

 

Interestingly, in the before times I rehearsed in a band with another keyboard player, and someone asked me about a chord. I explained "That's G mu major: take a G triad, drop the third to the second, put the third in the bass". The other keys player, who had brought sheet music for the track, showed everyone. It was notated exactly as in your example (without the flat signs), with a chord symbol "Bm7" above it.

 

So what do I know?

 

Cheers, Mike.

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I'd say Bbm7(b13) - someone smart enough to read such a chart would realize that the F below/above middle C would be a bit too muddy/discordant.

Kurzweil PC4, Expressive E Osmose, UNO Synth Pro, Hammond B-3X on iPad, Rhodes Mark II Stage 73, ART 710-A MK4s

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I always find these posts puzzling. To my mind, you can't definitively name a chord in a vacuum. It is entirely dependent on the context. What key is the song in? What is the progression in front of and after this chord?
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A lot of players use these stacked fourth shapes for both left and right handed voicings. They are easy to grab with one hand, and have free fingers to add other tones.

 

 

The isolated chord (not in context of your song) implies a Bb root, m3, and 7th from m7 chord. The curiosity is the Gb. Spelling aside, do you intend to hear it in context (of the song) as a #5 or b13?

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This chord is common in modern Brazilian music, it is notated as m7#5, and often implies that exact voicing. Sometimes you'll also see m9#5 as well. Examples of modern Brazilian composers who use this chord as part of their harmonic vocabulary are Toninho Horta, Marcos Silva and Chico Pinheiro.
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Thanks everyone so far... I'll try to get all my replies in this one post (though more replies to my original post have come in since I started working on this one!).

Dbsus/Bb???

Though writing it out seems like the only way to specify the exact voicing....

Yes I'd like my voicing more or less exact. When I see "Db sus", my first question is sus 2 or sus 4? Then the issue is that either of the normal voicings for those two types of chords involves a clustery major second interval. I need fourths, for that more open sound. A Db sus4 would have the correct notes, just arranged wrong!

I would write it is as Gb (add 9)/Bflat, and hope that whoever is comping would make that beautiful quartal shape that you wrote. Part of the problem, I think is just that the most common idea in harmony is of a major or minor triad (and with good reason). But then some beautiful quartal and quintal voicings get awkward names.

Seeing "Gb (add9)/Bflat" on a chord chart would lead me to play a Gb triad with the ninth, which would be the wrong (for me) voicing below. And as fas as hoping "whoever is comping would make that beautiful quartal shape" - hope springs eternal!

2nd-Gbadd9-Bb.jpg

Or Gbsus2/Bb... its always hard, since not everyone knows the mu chord concept from Steely Dan...

That's kinda like the first example above (Dbsus/Bb) â this time the sus2 would give me the correct notes (as opposed to the sus4 with the Db chord), but again - the correct voicing is not implied. To me, any kind of sus chord implies a major second in the voicing (hey, I only know sus2 and sus4!!). I need those open fourths!

 

As far as the "mu" chords: I've heard this term for many years and know it involves a sus2, and that it originated with the SD guys. I just looked it up on Wikipedia, which informs me that a "mu" chord is a sus2 that also includes the 3rd. OK then - well, that's even farther away from the sound I'm looking for!

 

While I'm at it, I'll just say that the chart I'm doing is for a very "jazzy" pop song, actually one I linked to in a recent thread here about the Yellowjackets. It's "Love and Paris Rain" by Brenda Russell and Russ Ferrante. It's one of those tunes that doesn't have a strong key center, so I wrote the chart without a key signature. It's stuffed full of slash chords - not only straight inversions but a few bitonal examples (D/Bb anyone?), and many "sus2/bass note" chords. So there's no context of familiar cadences that would dictate a certain spelling â just a desire to simply communicate the voicing needed. I always find myself playing fourths in my voicings, for any kind of chord - major, minor, whatever. I was hoping there might be an agreed-on convention for spelling these fourths-voiced chords. I'm starting to think that Redwave has the best answer here. Adding (b13) to a minor chord symbol should imply, as he says, no 5th. I think I'm gonna go with that.

 

Here is a link to the u-tube of the song. The chord in question is at 1:48 -

. If anyone happens to check it out, yes, there are more notes in there than a plain "Bbm7 (b13)" implies - but I think those are all extra "color" tones and the meat of the chord is what Redwave suggests.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies so far - it helps me to see how others interpret chord symbols. I learned a very basic (i.e., older & classical-based) theory of harmony and voicings which never got into this too much (or I didn't stick around long enough to get to it!). What I know is based almost completely on my exposure to various lead sheets and chord charts during my time on the planet. I'm eager to become better informed.

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This chord is common in modern Brazilian music, it is notated as m7#5, and often implies that exact voicing. Sometimes you'll also see m9#5 as well. Examples of modern Brazilian composers who use this chord as part of their harmonic vocabulary are Toninho Horta, Marcos Silva and Chico Pinheiro.

Very interesting you say this because I play a lot of Braz (including a few Toninho tunes!). Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing that m7#5 spelling. Thanks for reminding me! I see that if I play a standard minor 7th voicing, raise the fifth, then drop the 7th down one octave â that's the sound. Of course, b13 and #5 are really the same note, but #5 is a more definite indication that the "regular" 5th is not part of the voicing and I can see how it would become convention. Now I can fix my chart!

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Gb2/Bb

 

It really depends on the context it"s played in.

 

I played it and then went like this after it such as is it a tonic chord or what?

 

| Gb2/Bb | B 6/9 | Ab-11 | Bb-7 | Eb13 | Ab-11 || Db13 ||

 

That"s Erroll Garner"s introduction to 'Autumn Leaves' in the key of E flat minor on His famous recording titled 'concert by the sea'.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Both Gb(add 2)/Bb and Dbsus/Bb are technically correct, though imo they don't imply the exact voicing I'm looking for the way Bbmin7#5 does.

 

However - if someone were to play any of these three voicings for those particular two bars of the song, I think their gig would be safe!

 

3-chords.jpg

 

[edit] I think some may be missing the point that I'm not necessarily trying to be "correct" (although I don't want to be incorrect either)! I'm simply looking for a way to write the chord symbol so it communicates the voicing I want. I think that the m7#5 is probably what it is - I now remember seeing chord symbols written this way and figured that it meant to voice the chord in fourths.

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One of those dealers choice type things more for late night drinking and trying to act smart.

 

To me the keys are the Bb in the bass and that OP said the chord had and F but he dropped it. So that screams some sort of Bb to me.

 

Can't said the Gb is some form of #5 because because the OP said there was a 5th and he omitted it, so it is b6. Some might call this Bb Aeolian chord that said do what you want as long as it's minor and if there is a 6 it's flatted. I like the Gb add 2 /Bb. But could say Bbmi7 b6 (no 5th). If it was a dominant I call it a b13, but being minor b6 more appropriate.

 

So that's my two cents on the topic.

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Until someone doubles the Bb. On the Gb...I'd just write Gb2/Bb that way you don't get the Bb doubled...and you could get lucky with Dbsus and get it voiced the way you want, but I could live with it in either inversion if I didn't have a chance to tell someone what I wanted or notation.
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Until someone doubles the Bb. On the Gb...I'd just write Gb2/Bb that way you don't get the Bb doubled...and you could get lucky with Dbsus and get it voiced the way you want, but I could live with it in either inversion if I didn't have a chance to tell someone what I wanted or notation.

Thanks Linwood. I was gonna remark on that Gb chord... I thought I might talking out of a different orifice if I mentioned using "Gb2" versus "Gb (add2)" but maybe I was right. If you say so!

 

So just to get straight on this (or try anyway): a "2" by itself would imply no third at all, right? Would "sus2" say the same thing? "Add 2" seems to imply that the third could be hanging around.

 

This chord is in the chart - would you call it a D2/F# or a Dsus2/F# - or it doesn't matter? I think I would be more apt to voice it exactly as written below if I saw a plain "D2/F#" on a chord chart, but I might have skipped theory class that day because I'm not certain what's "correct" here. Thanks and I'm done bothering anyone with theory Qs, for a little while at least!

 

D2.jpg

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D2/F# will get you that because you want that D where it is. If I saw Asus/F# I'd play just what you have written, too. It's all a crap shoot! V. Mendoza and Russ charts would have D2/F# as well. I've seen that.
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Reeze: I don"t feel that a chord symbol can guarantee an exact voicing. That"s what notation is for. If I put Cmaj7 it doesn"t tell me the inversion, nor the spread of the notes between the hands. So I say it can"t be done

 

You're right, it's not a guarantee, but certain conventions seem to have been adopted, and that's what I was asking about here. For example, the "11" chord. If I see "D11" I know it's a C triad/D (the Herbie Maiden Voyage chord) and I have a pretty good idea how to voice that â and I'll bet most players familiar with that notation will voice it the same way or very close. The main idea is that a specific chord symbol communicates the sound I want â not necessarily the exact notes in the voicing. Most experienced jazz players can handle a lead sheet and know how to voice more typical chord symbols. That one Bb chord got me questioning things a little so I posted here.

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I think everyone's got the right idea...and indeed, it does become a personal choice. I believe the Gbsus2/Bb or a Bbm7+ (#5...pick your nomenclature) works.

 

The Gbsus2/Bb, particularly, always leads me to feel like it's a passing chord, from say Gb to Gb/Bb...in this case with an added sus2 for colour. The latter doesn't necessarily put you in the key of Bbm.

 

With the above in mind, here's another take....and this obviously depends on context and the way you approach your modes. If you're trying to think in terms of 4ths, you might think of the chord in question as Ab7/4 (I'm told this is quite common in Brazilian contexts as well). Yes, you need to get a slash Bb in there somehow. So, if you're writing the chord symbol, stack the 74 and then slash the Bb. You might find that reading the chord symbol in this way influences your improvisational approach differently (perhaps easier...YMMV).

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You play "Jazz", and you've somehow escaped learning the notation to this simple chord?

 

That's pretty funny.

 

Seeing how a lot of people in this thread - you included - didn't exactly agree on what to call it, maybe we all have something to learn?!

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