Rhodes: sound is produced when a key is pressed very soft?

[GeorgeRaindog]

I have noticed that in my Yamaha P121, if I press a key very soft no sound is produced for rhodes/wurli pianos (same happens for acoustic pianos as well).

 

When using it as MIDI controller for Scarbee Mark 1 and Lounge Lizzard, no matter how hard of soft I press the key, always a sound is produced

 

1) what is the case for a real Rhodes/Wurli?

2) the difference in the 2 scenarios above is normal? this is the way these VSTs are working? or is it the keyboard that causes it? (or a setting somewhere)

 

I am using the default (middle) key sensitivity setting

[analogika]

Rhodes, Wurlis, CP60/70/80, and acoustics all have hammer mechanisms, which means that when you press a key, that will swing a hammer against a string/tine/reed to set it vibrating.

 

It cannot *press* the hammer against the string/tine/reed, because that would stop it from vibrating and immediately mute the sound.

 

So the hammer HAS TO swing the last bit on its own in order to fall away from the string/reed/tine immediately. This means that if the key isn"t struck with enough force, the hammer won"t have enough speed to ever reach the string/reed/tine and actually produce a tone.

 

On all these instruments, there is a minimum threshold velocity below which a key simply cannot produce a sound.

[jerrythek]

Respectfully, I don't think this answer is correct as regards what the OP is writing about.

 

If you read up on the action of an acoustic piano, as regards escapement and a setting called "Key Let Off" you will understand that if you press a piano key very softly the action will "slip" and the hammer will not be thrown forward. Synth/keyboard manufacturers have simulated this for many years by simply setting the sound so it doesn't respond to MIDI velocity 1-2, so you can show that your product "has" this feature. It's a small little programming trick, and to be honest it's pretty meaningless. Just some sales technique...

 

I'm a little surprised that Yamaha is applying this to any other sound besides acoustic pianos. No doubt they have their reasons.

 

In general, Rhodes and Wurlies are very dynamic and can be played very softly. Yes, if you play them especially (clinically?) soft you can get them not to sound due to the physics that analogika mentions, but in all my years of playing I have never had a (well regulated) instrument not speak due to my soft touch. When we were voicing the Korg SV-1 we had some big arguments about the dynamic range of the EPs, as I (and some others) didn't want them to be able to get to whisper quiet, as few people play with that much dynamic. And I do play with a wide range of dynamics, much more than many, as evidenced by users reaction to my EP sounds velocity feeling when I made sounds for the Casio PX-5S. But the Italian team at Korg were adamant that the real instruments could get super quiet and wanted to replicate that. We played the real instruments side by side with the SV-1 to prove that we were accurate in replicating this very soft dynamic/wide dynamic range.

 

So all this to say, I believe that Yamaha is applying the "Key Let Off" trick to more than their acoustic piano sounds. I have never run into another synth/keyboard that does this to EP sounds.

 

MIDI, on the other hand has to send a value when played softly, so it is up to the receiving sound to deal with it. Whatever instruments you are triggering could be set to also start speaking at MIDI velocity 2/3/whatever to replicate what your P-121 is doing.

 

Jerry

 

 

Rhodes, Wurlis, CP60/70/80, and acoustics all have hammer mechanisms, which means that when you press a key, that will swing a hammer against a string/tine/reed to set it vibrating.

 

It cannot *press* the hammer against the string/tine/reed, because that would stop it from vibrating and immediately mute the sound.

 

So the hammer HAS TO swing the last bit on its own in order to fall away from the string/reed/tine immediately. This means that if the key isn"t struck with enough force, the hammer won"t have enough speed to ever reach the string/reed/tine and actually produce a tone.

 

On all these instruments, there is a minimum threshold velocity below which a key simply cannot produce a sound.

[AnotherScott]

as evidenced by users reaction to my EP sounds velocity feeling when I made sounds for the Casio PX-5S.

Kudos for working on PX5S EP sounds. I know Dave Weiser (ex-Kurz) did some downloadable ones, too. Coincidentally or not, PX5S and SV1 (and some other Korgs) and Kurzweil have been among my favorite EP boards over the years. I've liked Kawai EPs, too. As a rule, Nord a bit less, Yamaha a bit less than that, Roland bringing up the rear. (Oh, and Dexibell, used to be the worst, but the newer downloadables are much better.)

[analogika]

I'm a little surprised that Yamaha is applying this to any other sound besides acoustic pianos. No doubt they have their reasons.

 

In general, Rhodes and Wurlies are very dynamic and can be played very softly. Yes, if you play them especially (clinically?) soft you can get them not to sound due to the physics that analogika mentions, but in all my years of playing I have never had a (well regulated) instrument not speak due to my soft touch.

[â¦]

 

So all this to say, I believe that Yamaha is applying the "Key Let Off" trick to more than their acoustic piano sounds. I have never run into another synth/keyboard that does this to EP sounds.

 

I appreciate the well-founded response, especially coming from someone who has helped replicate the touch response on such an excellent machine!

 

I"m don"t read the OP as specifying that this happens during playing (which, I agree, it shouldn"t on a well-regulated instrument), but rather, just that he"s noticed the phenomenon.

 

Either way, I think it"s been well clarified what is happening, and when it ought to.

 

I"ll note that I"ve just tested the Nord Stage 3, and it also has the 'key let-off' trick on its e-pianos, as (of course) on the acoustics and the CP80.

[bfields]

If you read up on the action of an acoustic piano, as regards escapement and a setting called "Key Let Off" you will understand that if you press a piano key very softly the action will "slip" and the hammer will not be thrown forward. Synth/keyboard manufacturers have simulated this for many years by simply setting the sound so it doesn't respond to MIDI velocity 1-2, so you can show that your product "has" this feature. It's a small little programming trick, and to be honest it's pretty meaningless.

 

It's meaningless on all the keyboards I've had, but on a real piano it actually does have a use, in that it lifts a damper.

 

E.g. I've played pieces where you can build up a lot of reverberation with the sustain pedal down, then silently press a few keys, then release the sustain pedal, and just those few strings will be left ringing.

 

I think Pianoteq lets you do this, but no keyboard I've had does--it needs more than the velocity 1-2 trick, it also needs to know the low-velocity note-on shouldn't cut off any previous note still sustaining on that string, and/or needs good string resonance modeling.

[GeorgeRaindog]

Thank you all

 

I"m don"t read the OP as specifying that this happens during playing (which, I agree, it shouldn"t on a well-regulated instrument), but rather, just that he"s noticed the phenomenon.

This is exactly what I had in my mind, just an observation of the phonomenon - nothing to do with my playing

 

I"ll note that I"ve just tested the Nord Stage 3, and it also has the 'key let-off' trick on its e-pianos, as (of course) on the acoustics and the CP80.

I'm a little surprised that Yamaha is applying this to any other sound besides acoustic pianos. No doubt they have their reasons.

I have never run into another synth/keyboard that does this to EP sounds.

 

So Nord (at least in stage 3) has this "feature" and probably Yamaha as well in other models?

 

I understand that might not be something important, but given that these keybords are trying to replicate the real ones, why they shouldn't behave in a similar way?

[analogika]

On acoustics, the function is actually musically useful: holding down a key without making a sound will allow those notes to resonate accordingly when other keys are played. This is especially interesting with a sostenuto pedal, or, as mentioned, when releasing the damper pedal and having certain notes ring out without actually having been struck last.

 

The Nords model the sympathetic resonance very realistically, and it"s a beautiful effect. They also let you 'silently' press and hold a key that"s already sounding (with held damper pedal) without muting the previous note.

 

On electric pianos like the Wurli or Rhodes, there is no sympathetic resonance, BUT there is pedal noise that causes tones to ring, even when the keys have been pressed too softly to make an initial sound of their own.

 

These are edge cases, to be sure, but there is something to be said for fully reproducing the behaviour of a 'real' instrument, down to its musically limiting (or enabling) shortcomings.

[jerrythek]

Ah yes, this is a very important point that I forgot. On an acoustic piano, and on any digital that has sympathetic resonance we use this behavior to show off the resonances (holding down keys silently to show how the resonances work). Replicating the "slip" makes it quicker to demo, since you don't need to wait for a struck sound to decay away before demoing the resonance behavior. Good to bring it up!

 

In general, it is also true that the velocity response that you set up for a sound can also produce the "silent when played very softly" behavior. Route a lot of velocity to the amp level and it will happen. I don't see it happen as much, because like I said in my previous post, I find most manufacturers (and players) like a somewhat more compressed dynamic range. For another story from the past, at Ensoniq there was a time that we would make "tracking" versions of sounds where there was a more compressed dynamic range, so the sound never got too quiet, so it didn't accidentally drop out of the track when you played a bit quieter. It's using the velocity to amp control to simulate what putting a compressor on a sound would do. It's this aspect that I have found users not liking some dynamic EP settings that I prefer, as they just want to "stay in the mix" when playing sounds in a band. And it is true that for band playing you simply don't need the same range of dynamics that you might prefer for more exposed, or solo playing.So philosophically speaking, is it more important to try to replicate the behavior of the original instrument, or make a sound that works for a given situation/application? Spoiler: there is no wrong answer.

 

Jerry

 

On acoustics, the function is actually musically useful: holding down a key without making a sound will allow those notes to resonate accordingly when other keys are played. This is especially interesting with a sostenuto pedal, or, as mentioned, when releasing the damper pedal and having certain notes ring out without actually having been struck last.

 

The Nords model the sympathetic resonance very realistically, and it"s a beautiful effect. They also let you 'silently' press and hold a key that"s already sounding (with held damper pedal) without muting the previous note.

 

On electric pianos like the Wurli or Rhodes, there is no sympathetic resonance, BUT there is pedal noise that causes tones to ring, even when the keys have been pressed too softly to make an initial sound of their own.

 

These are edge cases, to be sure, but there is something to be said for fully reproducing the behaviour of a 'real' instrument, down to its musically limiting (or enabling) shortcomings.