Upgrade Treadmill

[The Real MC]

The "upgrade treadmill" member is one who replaces gear every 1-2 years to "upgrade" to the latest toy.

 

I was never a subscriber to that. During the 1980s I saw many people doing that. Too many musicians bought brand new gear then sold them at a huge loss 1-2 years later to acquire the latest toy. So way back then I made the conscious decision to buy gear that would serve me for MINIMUM of ten years.

 

That adage has served me well. Today I use the same MIDI controller I bought new in 1989, the same romplers I bought between 1989 and 1991, the same analog synths, the same outboard, the same mixing console.

 

My romplers don't have onboard DSP digital effects or filters. Not a problem, I have plenty of outboard effects and filters for that role. Never got into sampling.

 

Yes there are more powerful tools today. I cut my teeth on the stuff I acquired since the 1980s, and I don't want the learning curve anymore. After dumping three digital pianos because of their stiff action, I made a conscious decision to buy a DP from the same generation of my romplers. With firmware I was already familiar with, I didn't have to learn a new interface. That worked out well and I have a DP that doesn't have stiff action.

 

MIDI has served me very well. My gear acquisition started a few years before the dawn of MIDI in 1983. I was in college then and decided to hold off buying MIDI stuff a few years to let the technology mature. That turned out to be the right decision as some of the first generation MIDI implementation were not right.

 

"Bread n Butter" sounds piano EPs strings choir brass reeds percussion etc... got 'em

Hammond Clonewheel with Leslie or simulator... got 'em

Vintage/Modern analog... got 'em

MIDI retrofits for vintage analogs... got 'em

Outboard effects digital or analog... got 'em

Hard disk multitrack recorder.. got 'em

Mixing console with plenty of outboard... got 'em

Mics, DIs, other studio tools... got 'em

 

I don't replace stuff unless they break beyond repair. My 486 MIDI computer died three years ago. Hard drive was fine, the motherboard went south. Replaced it with an iMac. That's the newest gear in my studio.

 

Plugins put you on the upgrade treadmill. When your computer is obsolete and breaks, the new computer has a new OS that forces you to replace your plugins.

 

I have been to four NAMM shows. Love seeing lots of great new gear; while I see things I can add, I seldom had a compelling reason to REPLACE existing gear. 2016 was the last time I was at NAMM and I left the show not WANTING anything.

 

Sure, I've gotten rid of stuff that didn't meet the "ten year" rule. Either it was redundant or it didn't sound good. I'm no techie phobe, I actually exploit some serious technology from my arsenal even the old stuff. I remember getting MMC to work with Cakewalk running on WFW311 on my 486 computer, and remarking how old stuff gets the job done.

 

I'm sure there's others with similar views...

[Stokely]

My treadmill isn't necessarily to get "better" or newer, it's been mostly to fill a different need. I have to fund (and justify to the wife) getting a new keyboard by selling the old one(s)....so when I wanted a clonewheel, my synth had to go....now I've sold that clonewheel, and one that came later, and ended up with a new synth Regrets? In some cases, yes. Especially with the ones I bought used that didn't cost that much, nor sold for that much. Wish I'd kept my Virus kb for example.

[jeffincltnc]

I'm always looking at the new stuff and never stop buying and selling things. It's what I like to spend my money on and I don't care about the "return on investment" or "buy what I need" as long as I am enjoying them. I don't play golf and I don't have a boat, so a room full of new keyboards always makes for my happy place. Life is short - do what makes you happy. My friends and family who sink their fun money into RVs, sport fishing gear, a weekend getaway cabin, own horses, restore classic cars for fun, etc. get their enjoyment through their hobbies, too.

[EscapeRocks]

I'm always looking at the new stuff and never stop buying and selling things. It's what I like to spend my money on and I don't care about the "return on investment" or "buy what I need" as long as I am enjoying them. I don't play golf and I don't have a boat, so a room full of new keyboards always makes for my happy place. Life is short - do what makes you happy. My friends and family who sink their fun money into RVs, sport fishing gear, a weekend getaway cabin, own horses, restore classic cars for fun, etc. get their enjoyment through their hobbies, too.

 

This!

As people who have followed me here know, I do the same thing. I like new gear, and I have sold/traded many times. Like you, shiny gear is my hobby. I don't smoke, drink, play golf, or own a boat. Wait till you see my 85th stage rig rack build coming shortly

How many stand do I own or have I built.... that's a hobby unto itself for me. I don't think I've used the same stand in back to back gigs. Hell, even my Gibraltar drum rack key stand changes weekly Some say it's my a.d.h.d.

 

Back to specific topic: I've never bought gear with an eye towards resale value. Outside of very basic criteria, my acquisitions are desire-based, not need-based. I then find a way to do it. I can get very creative in the financial department without paying a huge vig to Chris Moltisanti

[Docbop]

In the days that music stores took trade in I would hop on the upgrade treadmill all the time. Have my share of "I wish I hadn't done that" deals. But now that stores even local don't seem to say sell it yourself, or the GC we'll buy it for half the average used price. I find selling used gear a major PIA or too risky dealing with strangers. If stores still took trades I would have a Kronos or Montage by now. On the good side I do like my RD-2000 so I can wait on getting a workstation awhile longer.

 

Big thing for me is selling off my guitar gear that I have way too much of. I've sold what I can to locals so will have to bite the bullet and sell rest to a GC type deal to a vintage store. So maybe my guitars will fund my workstation lust.

[cp-the-nerd]

I'm looking forward to getting on that treadmill one day. I still need to put together a functional music studio with proper monitors, then I have a few gaps to fill in keyboards.

[Adan]

Many of my gear acquisitions and sales have been not so much upgrades as lateral adjustments as my gigging or home situation has changed. For instance, I'm in a dance covers band and need something like a Kronos to cover all the bases. Then I get sick of those kinds of gigs and start a jam band and need separate piano and clone keyboards, so I sell the Kronos thinking I'll never play in another cheesy dance band, but later go back on that promise for the money and the women. Or I move my family to a new house and lose my mancave. We move and I've got a cave again.

 

As an active weekend warrior I've more than paid for my equipment with gig money. That's good enough for me.

 

I was actually hoping this thread was about real treadmills, as I'm shopping for one. Hopefully whatever I get will last a long time. Would hate to be on the treadmill treadmill.

[jeffincltnc]

I'm also guilty of impulse buys that are something like..... "This is a really low price for an SV188 on Reverb with a 'Make Offer' button.... I doubt the seller will accept my offer, but if they do, I'll take it and play it until I need to clear a space on my stands... easy flip."

[timwat]

"The "upgrade treadmill" member is one who replaces gear every 1-2 years to "upgrade" to the latest toy" was Michael's original premise.

 

Defined that way, nope, I'm clearly not that guy - the core pieces of my gig rig are all 10 years old (original Kronos, original Wave).

 

If I look at it from a broad electronics point of view, all my recent upgrade spends have been on computing technology, not KB stuff.

 

But there are other more frequent purchases - mixers, stands, accessories. I still don't have the perfect gig stand and have my eye on another, and there are always new synth units that catch my eye. I don't see anything wrong with indulging a hobby as long as it's responsible spending. Most of us work damn hard for our money, and occasionally I feel like enjoying it a little.

 

To me, one telling thing from Michael's original post is that he left his last NAMM show in 2016 not WANTING anything.

 

We all have different reasons to want things, including keyboard gear. Especially cause we don't all play for exactly the same reasons.

 

For me, spending an hour listening to Keith Jarrett does a really good job of refocusing my "upgrade treadmill" (or at least my internal "wanting" part of it) into more long-term orientation. Maybe that's just me.

[Docbop]

For me, spending an hour listening to Keith Jarrett does a really good job of refocusing my "upgrade treadmill" (or at least my internal "wanting" part of it) into more long-term orientation. Maybe that's just me.

 

Easy when you only play acoustic pianos. Keith said he hasn't played a "Toy" keyboard since he left Miles.

[Stokely]

The real thing that keeps from from buying (and eventually selling/flipping): selling big items like keyboards is a major, severe pain in the ***. Local interest is spotty and now you are dealing with sketchy characters that back out of deals, and especially with covid it's just iffy all around. Shipping means the hassle of boxing and shipping and hoping you don't get some buyer out to get you, because the selling sites protect them more than the seller. Ugh. I've been lucky with my buyers in the past--some very nice and honest people-- but it's a fair amount of luck, work and waiting to arrive at a deal that I don't enjoy in the slightest.

[area51recording]

I was actually hoping this thread was about real treadmills, as I'm shopping for one. Hopefully whatever I get will last a long time. Would hate to be on the treadmill treadmill.

 

Me too! The one I have is....ok, but the wife just bought a whole slew of new bath towels and there's not enough room to hang them all on the existing unit.....

[timwat]

For me, spending an hour listening to Keith Jarrett does a really good job of refocusing my "upgrade treadmill" (or at least my internal "wanting" part of it) into more long-term orientation. Maybe that's just me.

 

Easy when you only play acoustic pianos. Keith said he hasn't played a "Toy" keyboard since he left Miles.

 

That's true, Docbop.

 

And beyond that, Keith reminds me all over again where I really want to upgrade is in what I play, not what I play, if you catch my drift.

[zxcvbnm098]

I've never been that upgrade crazy, mostly because keyboards have always been relatively expensive from when I started (1975/6) and up until fairly recently.

 

I've been going to NAMM since the mid 80's, and from then until, say, 10-15 years ago the difference between a given keyboard one year to the upgrade the next year was considerable! The differences in the last 10-15 years have really been incremental, and that in itself has turned my gear lust meter down considerably.

[drawback]

I've been through a lot of keyboards, but the only time I can say I've upgraded was from an Electro2 to a Stage2. Other than that, I usually make a departure from one brand to another or from one type of keyboard to another. I just make sure with each model I buy, I get the basic sounds I'm looking for and the features that will take me in another direction. And I have a pact with myself that nothing enters without something gone. I tend also to not think of very many keyboards as "musical instruments." They're more a means to an end.

[ProfD]

Within the premise of the thread, I usually keep my main KB for 10 years or so.

 

Like others here, I have been through my share of KBs over the past several decades. It's been a fun ride from a learning perspective (synthesis, programming, sampling, etc.).

 

Now, I'm finally beginning to accept that the only KB I really *need* is an EP or a facsimile of it. Every other KB sound is just a "sprinkle" in my sonic toolbox.

[Song80s]

I recall my epic " Montage/Kronos/Fantom' are over priced " topic from last year.

 

As in the mfgr had very rich profit margins.

 

The retailer might make 5 or 10% at best. The mfgr was enjoying 25-35% from my recollection.

 

I linked the Yamaha financials as a base of my statement.

 

this exercise was irritating and confusing to some, such as ' whats my point ' ?

 

I understand some [ or many ? ] don't scrutinize their expensive { lets says over $2300}

purchase to include an over view of the manufacturer.

 

Thats the point.

 

An $800 synth ? Meh. Not as much need for the deep dive on purchase.

Typically, I recommend if the mfgr is thorough at documentation, current software add ons [ such as editors, librarians, doc revisions etc],

overall support and follow up on ' promises '.

 

I still recommend careful scrutiny the over $2300 piece. But I understand that many or some don't give a hoot.

I call it a ' rationalization '.

[Moonglow]

I've had the same gig rig for the past ten years (Kronos 88, Jupiter-80). Part of the reason for not upgrading is that I'm in three diverse cover bands, and among the thousands of stock programs in these two boards (many of which are designed for specific songs or a good starting point), I can pretty much dial in anything. There certainly are newer boards that have better pianos, organs, etc., but any upgrade in sound quality is offset by not having the time to learn how to program a new keyboard and dedicate the hundreds of hours to re-creating all of my programs, combis, live sets, registrations, etc. I don't mind doing this programming (I actually kind of like it), I just don't have the time. I suspect stronger motivation to upgrade will come from a desire to lighten the load (i.e., lbs.), which at my age increases proportionally with each passing day.

[BbAltered]

For me, there is a bunch of stuff I need to upgrade. I want to upgrade my Hammond XK3 pro system, because vibrato/chorus will either be ON or OFF for BOTH keyboards, and I want to set up preset with vibrato/chorus ON for the upper keyboard and OFF for the lower keyboard: that is not supported in this early Hammond. So I can either buy a used XK3c or an XK5 - both are compatible with my XK3 lower keyboard.

 

The studio mixer is a Mackie 1604 that communicates to the computer with Firewire: The mixer provides 18 input channels and 2 playback channels simultaneously - more than sufficient for my needs. But it work thru Firewire, and Firewire is a dying/dead technology.

 

My studio computer is one I built for audio applications. It is running Win 7. I am a NI Komplete (Komplete 10) user and the newest Komplete does not support Win 7. So my option are 1) enjoy Komplete 10 and never upgrade it; 2) upgrade the os to Win 10 (which makes sense from a computer security POV); or 3) build a new computer running Win 10. As things stand today, the computer works great, all the software works great, and the covid thing means I am writing new tunes and even doing some remote studio collaborations, without getting anywhere close to the performance limits of the computer. But the day will come when my other big software tools (Reaper, Sound Forge) no longer work on my current computer.

 

I have gone from being a dedicated "on the upgrade path" person, to one who now worries about advances in technology. Often I find myself saying "why do they have to keep improving things" (!). More and more the improvements seem to cause problems for me. And I am not as young, and no longer find great enjoyment in changes in tech or deep-diving in users' manuals. I just want sh*t to work. And more and more, that seems to me fewer changes.

[brenner13]

I loved my older gear and buying used for all of my 'original' music years...then joined my first cover band ten years ago. Nearly every purchase since then was to make the gig rig easier faster and lighter. Before the cover bands, gigs were few and far between allowing time to craft a unique sound with gear already in the stable. The cover bands enabled gigs nearly every weekend which funded the 'necessary' upgrades.

 

The Roland VR09 was my entry level drug to the 'shiny new' product. It rocked out everywhere: inside dirty little punk bars and at outside parties and festivals, in all weather conditions: 107 degrees, dusty, windy, rainy, snowy, and even a 20-degree day after a low of negative 10 the night before. Much of my older gear would have never made it. Six hard years of gigging that thing, and it finally started to get crackly outputs and the pitch paddle went wonky for the third time, and MODX7 to the rescue.

 

Several other bits of kit have come in and out of the rig, but now that I have a NEW pitch paddle in the VR09 (thanks to forum friends here directing me to Syntar), it is definitely back in the rig when two sets of versatile keys are needed.

 

Still pining for a better clonewheel. That will likely be a never ending quest. Viscount is mighty, mighty tempting.

[KuruPrionz]

While guitars don't change much and I am still playing great instruments I bought or traded for back in the late 80's, early 90's, amps and pedals have changed radically.

Technology now allows me to have small, light amps that sound great and get louder than I need. I evolved into them after many years of playing tube amps (tube amps may be reliable but tubes are not).

 

I always buy used, let the first buyer take the hit. I can easily get what I paid or more for almost everything I own.

 

Recording gear is another matter. I do have more plugins than I will ever use. Some of them need to go away. I do add them now and then but always when the sale prices are really good and always something I vet and find useful.

When you have nothing you want everything. That changes.

 

While software may become "obsolete" it is possible to delay that process considerably. I LOVE having versatile, great sounding gear that have virtual pots, jacks and switches. I've saved my installers, reinstalling a plugin is much easier than taking a mixing console apart to replace a faulty switch. The virtual pots never need cleaning. Last but not least, the space I don't need to fill with my toys is a great asset since I am not paying a mortgage on a larger place that can hold all of my gear.

 

There is more than one side to this story, it's not "one size fits all". If everybody is happy with their choices, I am happy for them!

[denkom67]

I have a similar philosophy to the Real MC, and appreciate the post. I also agree on the actions of the current crop of fully-weighted controllers. I did have a period in the recent past where I was chasing the latest plugin flavor of the month, but a few years ago began slowly moving towards acquiring outboard effects and a small staple of analog mono and poly synths that will last me for a good long while.

 

The problem I'm struggling with over the last ten years is that gear just doesn't seem to be built the way it used to. My first two master controllers were Kurzweils, and they were built like tanks, and each lasted me with ZERO issues for over ten years. I built up tremendous brand loyalty to Kurzweil as a result of this, so when I decided to update my PC2 to get additional sliders to be able to properly emulate a Hammond B3, I upgraded to a PC3-X. Within a year, I began experiencing problems with both the pitch bend and mod wheels. After multiple trips and dollars to a horrible Bay Area authorized service center that shall remain nameless, the issue remained unresolved, so I just disabled both controllers, making the Kurz no longer serviceable as my master controller as I use a lot of synth sounds. Earlier this year, the display became noticeably dim, so I've turned the brightness and contrast way down to try and preserve the display for as long as I can.

 

I had a similarly spotty experience with my GSI DMC-122 and Gemini units. The DMC-122 arrived with half of the upper keyboard not transmitting MIDI. After several emails with the kind folks at GSI, they walked me through opening the keyboard to check the ribbon connectors, and sure enough one of them was not connected. In the process of opening the keyboard, one of the attaching bolts sheared off the board, which was unfortunate. I love the sounds of the Gemini, but that unit has also been nothing but a hassle - the Wifi constantly drops out, and unless MIDI mappings are setup (mine weren't before Wifi became unreliable), you're left with no way to control sounds and effects until Wifi decides to begin working again. I finally achieved some small bit of joy by getting an extension USB cable and mounting the onboard Wifi to the base of the DMC-122, which allowed me to finish my MIDI mappings. A good thing too, as the Wifi issues have recently returned, although not as bad as the situation previously.

 

At this point in my life, I don't need the shiniest toy and most polished modern sample set. I want my bread and butter sounds that sit well and cut through in a band context or a mix. And I want my gear to be absolutely reliable for ten years. This didn't used to be a problem, but with the current crop of gear unfortunately does seem to be an issue.

 

One more modern board that I really loved the sounds on and worked great for me with no problems in my last band was my Yamaha Motif XS, but I balked at the size / weight of the 88 key controller (whose action I really liked) and got the seven octave version instead. While I loved the sounds, I never could gel with the action for piano sounds, and piano has always been my main wheelhouse and what I'm ultimately looking for in a controller so I sadly rotated it out of the staple. I still somewhat regret that decision...

[denkom67]

Double post

[Mighty Motif Max]

I've generally avoided any upgrade treadmill. I got into professional keyboard gear at a time when things were pretty good, and so to me there isn't enough of an improvement from newer boards to even bother. I'm not planning on upgrading anything substantial for another good 6-7 years. The only time I've actually upgraded something was when my old Yamaha YS200 that I was using as a controller with my Motif started having power issues, and I upgraded to a Korg Krome 61 to fill that duty. But I kept the YS around for sounds.

 

I tend to buy "horizontally". I will buy things to serve a specific need, or for more sounds, or whatnot, but I don't generally replace things. I don't buy crap in the first place so I don't have as much of a need to routinely buy-sell-buy-sell. If I'm not going to be using something frequently for quite a few years, I don't buy it.

[ElmerJFudd]

I love to sit down and play the new models each year, but I"m not always in the market for one. Got to live within my means, even if I can write off the depreciation. So I wait for something that"s not incremental - a significant improvement in action, function or user interface. But I 100% see the attraction of selling off while an instrument can still fetch a decent price to fund the new model.

[Outkaster]

I don't know. The argument is always the "audience doesn't know the difference" That doesn't matter to me as much is it will matter to me....I know the difference. Look at clonewheels even since 2008 as an example. They have come so far and little things eventually become big things in terms of tone and sound. I like to flip gear, mostly Leslie stuff. If your careful and know what you are doing you don't have to lose everything on a transaction. I upgrade every 5 to 7 years.

[drawback]

I was actually hoping this thread was about real treadmills, as I'm shopping for one. Hopefully whatever I get will last a long time. Would hate to be on the treadmill treadmill.

 

I see you've made it to Vermont

 

I had a treadmill once. Turns out it wasn't the greatest idea â kind of like buying the boxed set of your favourite show and never end up watching it again ('cause you could anytime). I couldn't sell it and ended up giving it away to a young family who had an old Golden Lab that needed exercise in the winter.

[Marzzz]

I don"t buy gear just to flip it, but I do like new gear because I really take care of it, and can get good prices because I keep it mint. I consider it a 'rental fee.' Sometimes you have to really spend time with something before you decide if you will keep it, a month isn"t usually enough. But if something does really work for me, it will stay with me. One mistake I have learned is don"t be so quick to sell something, or you may find yourself really missing it (example- I never should have sold my MIDIBoard, even though I live the VAX77).

 

Software is no big deal- I have to update my laptop every 5-6 years and keep the OS current because of other requirements (QuickBooks, anyone?).

[Muad’Dib]

I read this title wrong? I thought ð­ you meant upgrading an actual treadmill?

[ElmerJFudd]