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For those who produce tracks - do you charge for their use?


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I've developed tracks for a bunch of dance band tunes (like, around 50 songs). I did it for two Covid gigs (singer, me and guitar), as an experiment and as a favor to the singer, who's a good friend of mine. Didn't charge him, just did it and we played the gigs - and they were a big hit (which is a separate sad commentary, but that's for another thread).

 

Now, another singer is asking about them - and wants to use them, and "occasionally" have me on the gig. It sounds like what he wants is for me to just share the tracks freely.

 

I feel a little put off by the suggestion. Each track cost me around $5 or more, and then I spent 30-60 minutes on each getting them polished. I realize I'm never going to see my ROI on it, but I'm curious how others who do this kind of work approach the whole thing.

 

Any compensation at all for the tracks? Just count it as "presumed contribution" for normal gig pay?

 

Your thoughts?

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My impression from this interview with this library music composer is that he made sure he got paid for his tracks, and generally handled his business side with great care. Unfortunately I can't recommend a particular timestamp to zero in on because it's been a few years since I listened to this interview and it's quite long

 

[video:youtube]

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Now, another singer is asking about them - and wants to use them, and "occasionally" have me on the gig. It sounds like what he wants is for me to just share the tracks freely.

Your thoughts?

 

Just say no. I'll leave singer stereotypes out of my response. :)

:nopity:
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Brotha Tim, I would charge him at least $50 per track. He's possibly replacing a whole band and keeping 100% of the gig dough. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I've developed tracks for a bunch of dance band tunes (like, around 50 songs). I did it for two Covid gigs (singer, me and guitar), as an experiment and as a favor to the singer, who's a good friend of mine. Didn't charge him, just did it and we played the gigs - and they were a big hit (which is a separate sad commentary, but that's for another thread).

 

Now, another singer is asking about them - and wants to use them, and "occasionally" have me on the gig. It sounds like what he wants is for me to just share the tracks freely.

 

I feel a little put off by the suggestion. Each track cost me around $5 or more, and then I spent 30-60 minutes on each getting them polished. I realize I'm never going to see my ROI on it, but I'm curious how others who do this kind of work approach the whole thing.

 

Any compensation at all for the tracks? Just count it as "presumed contribution" for normal gig pay?

 

Your thoughts?

 

your time is worth " X " per hour. I assume you are professional at what you do.

 

Professionals charge , lets say, for example, $50 per hour because they are highly skilled at what they do.

 

Now if, that is not whats going on, and your deal with the singer is not strictly business, and you 2 are 'casual '

that is something less than my 'professional ' example.

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

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How many tracks is this person hoping to get from you? If we're talking about a whole setlist, you are certainly entitled to a couple hundred bucks.

 

I also think you should write up a contract that establishes what this person is allowed to do with your tracks upon payment, so they don't distribute it any further. You should ask the same of the person you initially worked with for free.

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I'd work out a fee for both instances where you'd be on the gig or not, but I would definitely charge for their use â especially since the tracks were made up for a different singer. Come to think of it, if you wrote charts for a singer and another singer wanted to use them, you might even want to ask permission of the original singer. So then I have to ask what would your original singing partner have to say about this situation?

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I feel a little put off by the suggestion. Each track cost me around $5 or more, and then I spent 30-60 minutes on each getting them polished.

 

I'm a little confused on that point--what was the $5 for? Did you create the tracks from scratch, or were they based on downloads from some other service? If the latter, what terms did you receive them under?

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So you're redistributing someone else's tracks you bought I'd check the fine print tracks if you are allowed to resell/redistribute them. The person who created the original tracks has a stake in this too. The person you paid for the tracks probably gives you unlimited use, but not right to give to another person. That the probably with the digital world people think because something isn't physical they can just give copies to anyone else over and over.
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Good questions. I haven't distributed anything yet - I'm being "asked without asking", so to speak.

 

Yes, as far as I can tell (a few vendors make it more difficult than most to find their use licenses online), license for the tracks I purchased and used as a starting point provide unlimited personal use - but no commercial distribution. And yes, I've only used them personally to date.

 

A little context: The singer I originally developed them for is a dear friend of mine. He's always had my back, and I've got his. What started originally as an "trio live dinner music gig" morphed into a dance gig with no drums / bass, and I developed the tracks because I knew how. Not a lot of thought of profit or license issues, because I was always going to be the guy on his gigs (personal use), and it was the first gigs I was going to be able to play when - hardly any of us were playing any gigs.

 

This new, second request comes from a bandleader I've worked with a lot. He's not an unknown, and generally not a bad guy. And I regularly gig with him (with the 1st singer in the same band). It's all a bit of a tight knit community thang.

 

Normally, we're all well paid for playing. It's just this new wrinkle of reduced size bands using tracks and who pays for what is brand new to me, that and the fact I just can't be on every gig this guy wants to use them on - he has a couple of residencies booked in wealthy Bay Area venues that will have him gigging several times a week, every week. I don't have the bandwidth or desire to drive to the peninsula multiple times a week to play a with tracks gig.

 

Hope that makes it a little clearer for those of you who asked.

 

Greatly appreciate the input, thoughts and reminders, as always. You guys are always great.

 

Tim

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I'm honestly surprised he asked to use them free of charge. If this were some rando amateur I wouldn't blink twice while saying no, but it's interesting to me that someone who you gig with semi-regularly and who clearly should know what might have gone into the tracks would want a freebie like that.
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Tim, it occurs to me that if you want a convenient "out" from this situation you can simply and truthfully say "sorry my tracks use other content that I purchased, and I'm not allowed to distribute them commercially".

 

If you want to go down the helpful route, then the bandleader could presumably download the same source tracks as you downloaded (and pay for them), and then additionally pay you for your tracks.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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TIm -

 

Glad to be responding to you - I've read your posts for years (mostly a lurker here, although I've been coming out of my shell more lately), and you never fail to impress me with your knowledge, articulate writing, and thoughtful takes on not only music but LIFE. I really mean that.

 

NYC viewpoint here, but it should apply anywhere. ;-D

 

I know it can be a delicate situation politically/financially when dealing within a tight circle of friends and musical associates, but -

 

OF COURSE you should be compensated for your time and hard work.

 

(I know some have raised the very valid issue of the legality/rights of usage and selling under certain circumstances. Although I play a lawyer on TV, I'll leave that issue to those with greater expertise and am gonna stay out of that discussion for now. But of course, it's a vital topic, and is very relevant to what I'm about to say....

 

So, the scenario is - you purchased the tracks then customized/tweaked them?

 

If it's your band, and you're the one using them, great.

 

If it's for a person who's on your "I'm not taking your money, ever, even if it costs me" list (and we all have people like that in our lives) - pass the tracks along. Although, I'd likely ask that the friend reserve them for his own use, and not distribute them. A very fair ask, and any decent person should agree, seeing that they're getting tracks for free, to be used in perpetuity, that cost you time and money to create. (And of course, they're decent people since they're on your "A" list.) You could also ask for whatever other usage restrictions you'd like.

 

(As an aside - all too sadly in today's world, once any digital media is out there - charts, tracks, etc. - it's OUT THERE. I've been on gigs many times where someone pulled out a chart I had done (for my own use, or sold to someone), so tread carefully. Who knows how much things get passed around? Actually, we ALL do. And that phenomenon has taken a crippling toll on the music business - and our careers.

 

As far as the 2nd guy who wants the tracks - YES, charge. By the track, an hourly fee, or a flat fee for all of the tracks - IF you don't mind them being out there, and potentially passed around. An alternative strategy could be this approach: Say, "Look, I spent a lot of time customizing these tracks, and actually paid to acquire the tracks that I edited. Why don't we make them YOUR tracks - perhaps you want the arrangements to be tailored to your needs, and you may well want different tempos and keys. I'll create high-quality, personalized tracks for you, and I'll give you the best price I can, but I don't feel great about giving my work away."

 

Too often, we as musicians don't respect ourselves and our work enough to ask for what it's worth. We are highly trained, experienced and good at what we do. (Full disclosure:I'm a full-time musician, and I know that many people here aren't. In my my world (except among close associates/friends/special circumstances) we get paid fairly for all aspects of the gig: for rehearsals, writing charts, creating tracks, etc. OF COURSE, I cut people favors and consider all factors when determining a price. Negotiating is rampant, and one of the things I hate most. But if you want to make a living in this field - let alone during a pandemic and its aftermath - it comes with the territory. As we've watched the market for our talents dwindle down to a former shell of itself over the years, it's natural that we fear losing gigs, pissing people off, etc. But, as full-time musicians, we have to do it. As a matter of fact, it's the fear and reluctance to do so that has caused a race to the bottom, and contributed significantly to the sorry state of our business.

 

Sure you have to know your market, your area, and the relative value of your skills in your environment. And, I've dealt with the same music business scoundrels that you have. But in all honesty, I've generally found that when you screw up your courage and insist on being treated fairly, you generally get what you want, or damn close to it. Not always, but far more often that not. And it feels SO good when you hang up that phone that you had nervously dialed a few minutes earlier, in anticipation of a tough negotiation, knowing that you advocated successfully for your own self-worth! YMMV, of course.

 

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. thanks for listening.

 

Dan

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Dan,

 

Thanks so much for your kind words. They mean a great deal to me, more than maybe we often talk about here. I appreciate your input, and I think your NYC viewpoint does indeed translate easily to this situation.

 

As you and others have surmised, there are multiple layers here. There is the legal copyright and usage issue, which is not insignificant.

 

There is the multiple-parties-involved issue, and each relationship I have with the parties is distinct, yet related.

 

And there is of course the overarching issue that all my musical friends are struggling with no-gigs or very-low-paying gigs for the time being, which I am not insensitive to.

 

As you all might have guessed, the first singer (who I originally did all the work for) has never ever asked to use the tracks without me on the gig, has never asked me for copies of them. I figure that's a measure of the man, and that's one reason he's my friend. The second guy, he's had me on lots of gigs over the years, and offered me many more gigs than I've booked as I've typically been as busy as I have been, and is not a bad guy or a typical 'user' kind of individual.

 

So I think I'm going to sit down with him and have a little conversation with him; it's the way we build and strengthen relationships, and I don't want to attribute motives or presumptions on him that are unfair or inaccurate. We'll talk it out and come to a reasonable solution.

 

Thanks everyone - and Dan, again, thanks for the kind words.

 

Tim

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Right back atcha, Tim!

 

I didn't directly address it in my post, but I'd certainly say that an unprecedented pandemic resulting in widespread loss of work for all of us in the arts would qualify as a "special situation," where breaks can and should be given, and an outlook sensitive to others is essential and mandatory.

 

Dan

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Here's a question. Could you rent out your laptop for the gig that has the tracks installed only on that machine?

 

I guess not, but how is it different from renting out your Montage if it has proprietary samples you bought?

 

It's probably in the fine print and for lawyers to decide.

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