bfields Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 The very first figure should have the triplet start on A (instead of 8th rest and then the G). It's a three-note phrase there. The article jerrythek attached to his first post goes into some detail about exactly that choice.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 Hi Math: Read my article again... I had originally done it that way back when I wrote the column and Steve P was very adamant that it was wrong. The note we all hear comes from the CS-80 comping figure, not the solo line. [video:youtube] That said, if you add it no one is going to complain, as it is heard in the track. Got it. Yeah, I think it has its own life now, just as it would if it were a remnant of another take that slipped in there. Now it's just part of the solo. I don't think you can leave it out when you play it. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 (That article hadn't been posted when I made that comment. I see the explanation now.) Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernMeister Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 OK, on re-listening/looking my bar 6 is overly complicated. The player in the video above doesn't hold the A note properly, but after that note my cascade down is not accurate rhythmically. From the F# down it should be a steady stream of notes, not as I wrote. My bad for that. What else do you guys see? Jerry The very first figure should have the triplet start on A (instead of 8th rest and then the G). It's a three-note phrase there. I also thought there was an "A" that starts the motif...but, in reality, it's not there (at least not in the synth line). The A note is carried in by two instruments; piano and polysynth, which are both comping the same pattern at this point in the song. Greg Phillinganes and and others have indeed started the motif with an "A" live, but it's not really there in the recording. If it was played, it was likely mixed or gated out. Jerry's transcription above is condensed, of course. There's a lot more going on that certainly can't be performed with just two hands (or feet!). Off hand, I will say that beat 2 of measure 2 would be best written out as a 4 note tuplet of 16ths; that would make the line more accurate and easier to read. As for the flute/bell line, it's just 4 upper thirds that cycle in delay. The counter line is a challenge, even with the isolated recording that's out there. However, to my ears, it counters on beat 3. The horn line measure 8 should start in measure 6, where the synth appropriately counters, and then countered again by the horns in m8 (as wriitten). There's more to this magic; the bulk of which happens from 6-8. The polysynth bends in m11...start sort of as you have it, but are then doubled in lower inversions to build before the organ gliss climax. Even if, as Steve Porcaro explained, the organ gliss on the end was a happy accident, these guys knew what they were doing! I sequenced this back in the day and came away very proud of the synth solo rendition. Playing this live...almost impossible as a single keyboardist without triggering loops and sequences (as they have live). Love this song forever! Edit: Jerry, I just read your previous post after having posting the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I also think the ghost A is given legitimacy by the mix: it's pushed up as if it's the first note of the solo...which, intended or otherwise makes it the first note of the solo. Since there just isn't enough timbral difference to distinguish it from the rest of the phrase, it's forevermore the first note--particularly since the whole solo is a patchwork of separate parts anyway. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted February 28, 2021 Share Posted February 28, 2021 I found this live version helpful for setting up my rig for this song and executing the solo. For the solo SP appears to be using a split program on the lower keyboard: lower section = synth brass; upper section = saw lead. Note how his right index finger holds the last note of the saw lead ("C") while his left hand plays the next line of the synth brass. After I saw this video I set up my lower keyboard (Kronos 88) that way and used the same technique. Solo starts at 3:00. [video:youtube] Quote "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrythek Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 That's a great one for seeing Steve. But DP is covering the cascading flute/bell line, so that is missing from Steve's side of things. Jerry I found this live version helpful for setting up my rig for this song and executing the solo. For the solo SP appears to be using a split program on the lower keyboard: lower section = synth brass; upper section = saw lead. Note how his right index finger holds the last note of the saw lead ("C") while his left hand plays the next line of the synth brass. After I saw this video I set up my lower keyboard (Kronos 88) that way and used the same technique. Solo starts at 3:00. [video:youtube] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 That's a great one for seeing Steve. But DP is covering the cascading flute/bell line, so that is missing from Steve's side of things. Jerry I found this live version helpful for setting up my rig for this song and executing the solo. For the solo SP appears to be using a split program on the lower keyboard: lower section = synth brass; upper section = saw lead. Note how his right index finger holds the last note of the saw lead ("C") while his left hand plays the next line of the synth brass. After I saw this video I set up my lower keyboard (Kronos 88) that way and used the same technique. Solo starts at 3:00. For sure. The cascading flute/bell line always gave me the most heartburn. I ended up splitting my upper keyboard (Jupiter-80) with the upper section containing the flute/bell and the lower section covering the reso polysynth. Your transcriptions in the 08/2015 Keyboard article were of tremendous assistance, as are the updates in this thread. A huge thank you for both! Quote "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxcvbnm098 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 This thread is proof positive of the amazing resource this forum is! But Allen, wow, no rest for the wicked! Those are some hard-assed songs to pick up quickly, at least for me! Not exactly "Louie Louie in G' and "Mustang Sally in C" kind of tunes to be jumping into.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Thanks for reminding me how good this solo is, and how good Joseph Williams is with Toto. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Thanks for reminding me how good this solo is, and how good Joseph Williams is with Toto. Cheers, Mike. John Williams son? Worlds collide. (faints) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursers Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Thanks for reminding me how good this solo is, and how good Joseph Williams is with Toto. Cheers, Mike. John Williams son? Worlds collide. (faints) Indeed. Well worth reading Steve Lukather's book (or listen on audiobook as he narrates it himself). Lots of closely related people in the Toto orbit Quote The Keyboard Chronicles Podcast Check out your fellow forumites in an Apple Music playlist Check out your fellow forumites in a Spotify playlist My Music: Stainless Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share Posted March 1, 2021 That's a great one for seeing Steve. But DP is covering the cascading flute/bell line, so that is missing from Steve's side of things. Jerry I found this live version helpful for setting up my rig for this song and executing the solo. For the solo SP appears to be using a split program on the lower keyboard: lower section = synth brass; upper section = saw lead. Note how his right index finger holds the last note of the saw lead ("C") while his left hand plays the next line of the synth brass. After I saw this video I set up my lower keyboard (Kronos 88) that way and used the same technique. Solo starts at 3:00. For sure. The cascading flute/bell line always gave me the most heartburn. I ended up splitting my upper keyboard (Jupiter-80) with the upper section containing the flute/bell and the lower section covering the reso polysynth. Your transcriptions in the 08/2015 Keyboard article were of tremendous assistance, as are the updates in this thread. A huge thank you for both! I agree with Moonglow; this is all much appreciated. Separating the piano/organ/horn section onto the bottom keyboard is how I'll likely proceed with this one. The synth brass lead/mini lead would split on the top keyboard - along with a split, single-note triggered pattern for flute/bell monstrosity (definitely triggered, as I'll have my hands full with the leads and stabs). The Fantom 7 would nail that, with Stage 3 on the bottom for the other parts. I did notice that on the 40 Tours video it sounded like SP covered the synth brass lead and mini lead using the same Voice/Performance on the Motif XF8, then keeping the reso synth chords for XF7 up top. So a simplified split program could work as well, even with a single keyboard - as shown in these mp3 examples of downloads for a Stage 3 setup: https://www.norduserforum.com/post113495.html?hilit=Rosanna#p113495 (It appears that 'toto_1 and 'toto_2' would be switched between the A and B panels on the instrument). I'd likely tweak those synth tones closer to the original idea, but it's pretty good already - for a first-time programming effort. Also could replace some of the synth parts with my Prologue 8 on second tier, above the Stage 3, 76. That could also be a potent yet compact rig for all of this. Quote 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Allan, Here's my currently favorite live version of this. The mix is really good and you can hear what Mr. Phillinganes is doing. I also include the vid that shows his run down of how he did the solos. [video:youtube] [video:youtube] Quote David Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted March 2, 2021 Author Share Posted March 2, 2021 Thanks for posting this, Dave! I've seen the Greg Phillinganes video; very helpful to review his choices for covering the keys' parts. The live video is a lot of fun, especially the breakdown at the end. That style of playing and trading solos is completely in my wheelhouse. Love the bass guitar interaction, courtesy of Mr. Sklar. Quote 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 He plays the A. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Thanks for posting this, Dave! I've seen the Greg Phillinganes video; very helpful to review his choices for covering the keys' parts. The live video is a lot of fun, especially the breakdown at the end. That style of playing and trading solos is completely in my wheelhouse. Love the bass guitar interaction, courtesy of Mr. Sklar. You're welcome. When they played homage to Birdland I was smiling ear to ear. I loved some of the comments about Leland Sklar "Gandalf on bass" Quote David Gig Rig:Casio Privia PX-5S | Yamaha MODX+ 6 | MacBook Pro 14" M1| Mainstage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerrythek Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 He plays the A. Ha!! I'm guessing you didn't read my earlier post with the text from my "revision" article... It All Started With⦠a Rest The first point that Steve made was that the solo actually starts with a rest. That"s right, no note on the downbeat of the first bar. If you"re like me (and many others are) you hear a clear A note to start the phrase, on the original recording (see Ex. 1). Steve pointed out that that tone is coming from the CS-80 comping and not the lead synth; telling me that style of coming in on the offbeat was a signature thing for him at the time. He doesn"t play the A on the 35th Anniversary Tour: Live In Poland release (2014), nor did David Paich on Absolutely Live (1993) or 25th Anniversary: Live In Amsterdam (2003). During his years touring with the band Greg Phillinganes did play the A, as can be heard on Falling In Between Live (2007). I asked Greg about this and he said, 'It"s what I heard listening to the original recording, and no one told me any different. Thanks for nothing, Steve and Dave!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Is Simon Phillips playing the Rosanna shuffle open-handed (LH on the hi-hat)? Gadd-zooks! Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outkaster Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Greg is a beast. That's exactly my job in the band, being a support system. Playing right handed parts with the left hand is the key. It's all about management, that's how you get it done. Quote "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 Ha!! I'm guessing you didn't read my earlier post with the text from my "revision" article... I read it. It's awesome. I'm just of the opinion that whether SP meant it or not, that solo starts with the A. If you leave it out, it sounds like you're playing it wrong. And since the entire solo is Frankensteined anyway, that makes it less relevant whether it was in his intended pass or not. It's there now, forever and ever amen. Just like McCartney's "wrong" lyrics on Long & Winding Road. Sorry, Macca, it's "never know" forevermore. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted April 6, 2021 Author Share Posted April 6, 2021 Updated, new post for today. Quote 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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