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My Church is buying a new keyboard


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The other day I was at my Bible Study group, and learned some interesting news.

 

The host of the Bible study is a past church board chairman, and is still on the board

 

He told me that the church board had voted to purchase a new keyboard for the Worship Center, sending the current Yamaha MOX8 to the youth group.

 

They are looking at a Nord Stage 3 88.

 

After looking at the Nord demo video on Sweetwater, I think that it sounds like it would be very capable, but I'm not so sure it is right for that situation.

 

I only play there when I don't have a gig. The girl that is the main keyboardist I feel may get lost in the capability. I'm not commenting on her ability at all. She plays very well for someone that has never made a living playing, it's just that the Nord has so much.

 

I'm thinking they would be better off getting a Kurzweil PC4. It is very gig friendly, and the basic learning curve is not that high. (Yes, there is a LOT that I have yet to discover on mine, but it is very easy right out of the box.)

 

Plus, the Nord costs more than double that of the PC4.

 

So, I would like to get some opinions from this group on what they think would be a better fit. Keep in mind that the lady that would be playing it the most is a very good amateur.

 

 

I really can't form much of an opinion, as the only Nord I have ever played was a friends C2. Good sound, hated the drawbuttons. Plus, being a PC4 owner, my opinion may be a bit skewed.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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The way you describe the "main keyboardist" makes me assume that she's either a "straight pianist" or a "straight organist" - the choice of the 88 Nord, and the (clonewheel-free) MODX8 push me towards the former.

 

If so, how about the Nord Piano if red is attractive? Or other stage pianos-a Yamaha P515, for example?

 

Much as I (mostly) like my Nordd, I get the feeling that this church has decided "we need the best, this is the best, therefore we need this", and has perhaps not thought hard enough about specific requirements.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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The logical Kurzweil alternative would be the new K2700 with its premium action, build, and expanded sample sets.

Kurzweil PC4, Expressive E Osmose, UNO Synth Pro, Hammond B-3X on iPad, Rhodes Mark II Stage 73, ART 710-A MK4s

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The Nord Stage 3 88 is not a bad choice, really. Spend about 30 minutes setting up useful presets for the first ten or so slots, and just about anyone with piano skills could walk up and make great music from it. The depth is there if you want it, or it all can be ignored if you like. Nords are generally reliable, and they have great resale value. They also have a "wow" factor with some people. Having a great instrument to play will help in recruiting potential performers.

 

We have a lot of smaller congregations where I live. A guy I know runs a business serving their Hammond requirements. Seems like having a real Hammond in your church is a badge of attainment in some circles. So I understand the "get the best we can" thinking. One congregation I know has a scratchy-soundingHammond and a badly neglected baby grand up front. Looks amazing, sounds awful.

 

Could the congregation be happy with something less expensive? Absolutely. So many great choices out there. But at least they are avoiding a really bad choice.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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Nord Stage 3 88 is a lot of money for a small local church. Nord Stage 3 is a gigging keyboardist board needed a lot of functionality. I would say one of the new Yamaha's would fit your situation better. the YC88 or CP88 depending on how much organ capability you want at about half the price. The interfaces on those two boards are similar to the Stage 3 and shouldn't take too long to get used to.
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Of all the keyboards that I've owned the Kurzweil is the best sounding, it is also the most complicated to program. Given your comments about the keyboardist's potential struggle with capability I'd lean with a product whose functionality is more straight forward.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

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Nord Stage 3 88 is a lot of money for a small local church. Nord Stage 3 is a gigging keyboardist board needed a lot of functionality. I would say one of the new Yamaha's would fit your situation better. the YC88 or CP88 depending on how much organ capability you want at about half the price. The interfaces on those two boards are similar to the Stage 3 and shouldn't take too long to get used to.

 

Either would seem to be a logical upgrade for all the above reasons. Has anyone asked the regular player which direction she'd like to go in?

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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If the church is relying on non-pro, volunteer support... i.e. a capable pianist that doesn't have any interest in or aptitude for synthesizers, then the keyboard needs to be extremely user friendly or it'll scare them away from participating. In a nutshell, it needs to have a button that says "piano" that they can push to call up a usable piano sound and not have to worry about anything else. Layers, splits, pads & other capabilities are a bonus, but methinks a Nord Stage would be too intimidating for the lay folks.

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It may be a question of how many sounds you need. A Yamaha P515 will give you a few good bread and butter sounds, and if you get the stand and 3 pedal assembly, it has a nice dignified look. I spec"d one for a church, and as far as I know, the people who play it use the main piano sound almost all the time. Your church may be different of course.

 

That said ... if I was buying a kb for use in my own church, I would be waiting for the k2700 ;-)

 

Good luck, and have fun choosing.

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The Nord Stage 3 88 seems like foolish overkill for that setting, needs and the person playing it. I picked the boards for our church and would have a hard time justifying that expense. (We did get a Forte. Agree with others that have suggested more of a stage piano choice, many to choose from under $3K that will do all and probably more than what you need.

 

Frankly, for nearly $5K, I'd pick two boards (but I know that's not what you asked or need). I treat the church's money more conservatively than my own, and I'm pretty tight with a buck.

 

Another option is to find a nice gently used board. I just did a quick search and found 2 Forte's for mid $2K. You can put 10 great sounds under the 'Favorites' keys. Super easy for anyone to get to those sounds. I'd actually recommend this direction.

Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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Avoid a Kurzweil if she"s not keen on programming. They"re the most difficult to program of any brand I"ve used. Even for just setting up a multi program. I"m also not a fan of the way Nord works. Since there"s clearly money available, I"d think a Roland Fantom or Korg Kronos would be a way better fit. Or a Montage since it sounds like she wouldn"t be a power user for midi stuff.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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As someone who worked in a church for a long time, being a church has its advantage in getting gear. No, manufacturers typically won't give churches discount for many reasons. Local music stores will give discounts to get the tax deduction, and to acknowledgement. Then celebrity or deep pocket members to donate or sell at great price. Last sometimes member of the church wanting to sell or donate for tax deduction.

 

Church I worked for if I remember right we had a Motif since all the keys players were working pros so all knew there way around a workstation. We had a great Yamaha grand piano we got very cheaply from a celebrity member who heard we were looking and want to help (with a couple minor conditions). We also had members that we got deals on piano tuning and repair work from (we had some funky pianos in the utility rooms). I sold them some equipment dirt cheap I didn't need anymore. Little by little we put together a complete backline of gear which made FOH mixing a lot easier. So being a church you can leverage your non-profit status to get some discounts from local business or people looking for tax deductions. Also great deals from members of the congregation just for some form of acknowledgment (that one you have to watch some practically want a billboard saying they did you a favor).

 

So as they say look within for answers.

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Avoid a Kurzweil if she"s not keen on programming. They"re the most difficult to program of any brand I"ve used. Even for just setting up a multi program.

 

If she's going to play piano, she won't be programming anything. I've played keys and piano at my church for over 30 years. I'm the only player there that ever progammed anything. Much can be done without programming and very, very, very few players in the typical church setting won't even know where to start OR EVEN HAVE THE DESIRE to program. The OP's knowledge of his church, players and needs will allow him to answer these questions better than anyone on this forum.

 

Regarding your comment to avoid the Kurz, I respectfully disagree, IF we're talking about the Forte. A split or layer is super simple to set up. Any dumb dumb could do it.. Press the 'Layer' or 'Split' button and pick your sounds. Up to four of them can be easily split/layered across the board.

 

As I already said, the 'Favorite's buttons make easy access to 10 sounds, probably more than enough for most keyboard players at the typical church.

 

(Now, if you were talking about the Kurz PC3, yeah, forget about setting up splits and layers. Not hard but certainly not what I'd call easy.)

Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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Avoid a Kurzweil if she"s not keen on programming. They"re the most difficult to program of any brand I"ve used. Even for just setting up a multi program.

 

If she's going to play piano, she won't be programming anything. I've played keys and piano at my church for over 30 years. I'm the only player there that ever progammed anything. Much can be done without programming and very, very, very few players in the typical church setting won't even know where to start OR EVEN HAVE THE DESIRE to program. The OP's knowledge of his church, players and needs will allow him to answer these questions better than anyone on this forum.

 

Regarding your comment to avoid the Kurz, I respectfully disagree, IF we're talking about the Forte. A split or layer is super simple to set up. Any dumb dumb could do it.. Press the 'Layer' or 'Split' button and pick your sounds. Up to four of them can be easily split/layered across the board.

 

As I already said, the 'Favorite's buttons make easy access to 10 sounds, probably more than enough for most keyboard players at the typical church.

 

(Now, if you were talking about the Kurz PC3, yeah, forget about setting up splits and layers. Not hard but certainly not what I'd call easy.)

 

I was thinking of any Kurzweil other than the Forte. Yes, I"m coming from a PC3 :). I can make setups fine, it"s just not as immediate as other boards and a beginner would bet lost quickly. That"s nice that it"s that easy on the Forte still (I wasn"t sure if anything changed with the various updates it"s had). Anyways, most players I"ve encountered at churches like to set up a few layers and splits, probably a max of four or five sounds at most in a program. Custom editing etc I don"t see as much, though that"s mostly what I end up doing anyways.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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...If she's going to play piano, she won't be programming anything....

 

Finally a response showing a grasp of what you're dealing with when using volunteer support in a church setting: Piano players who have never played a synth, have no idea what a split or a layer is, wouldn't know how to play a pad sound... That's reality. If you've got someone that's younger and into the idea of being in a band, you may have someone eager to learn. Otherwise, piano is pretty much what you'll get. I once subbed myself out at church and had a volunteer member (an excellent pianist and music teacher) fill in for me. She called during rehearsal... " where do I find an organ sound?". I replied "look to the right of the display for a button that says organ...". You want to give that person a Stage 3 or Kronos or Fantom???

Custom Music, Audio Post Production, Location Audio

www.gmma.biz

https://www.facebook.com/gmmamusic/

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Would a more appropriate choice not be a lesser valued keyboard like a Numa Compact 2x and the cash saved could then be put to much better use in funding community projects?

 

 

THIS. The Nord is complete overkill, especially for a keyboardist that doesn't care, and an audience that surely won't know the difference. You could probably even get away with one of the several Casios or Yamahas in the $500 range, and the player would have an easier time, and the end result for the congregation would be the same.

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So, I would like to get some opinions from this group on what they think would be a better fit.

I'm not a churchgoer myself, so I don't know anything about this. But what I didn't get from your post - - what kind of music are you guys playing? Get a quality board that best fits the style of music.

 

As for the $$$$ part - seems to me, a few extra bucks will get you a setup that will provide great music for many years to come, inspire the players, maybe uplift a few souls and bring happiness to the folks that are listening. Hard to put a price tag on that.

Some music I've recorded and played over the years with a few different bands

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...If she's going to play piano, she won't be programming anything....

 

Finally a response showing a grasp of what you're dealing with when using volunteer support in a church setting: Piano players who have never played a synth, have no idea what a split or a layer is, wouldn't know how to play a pad sound... That's reality. If you've got someone that's younger and into the idea of being in a band, you may have someone eager to learn. Otherwise, piano is pretty much what you'll get. I once subbed myself out at church and had a volunteer member (an excellent pianist and music teacher) fill in for me. She called during rehearsal... " where do I find an organ sound?". I replied "look to the right of the display for a button that says organ...". You want to give that person a Stage 3 or Kronos or Fantom???

 

I started as a volunteer and still technically am a volunteer. But I'm inclined toward getting nice setups for every song. Still, even the oldest folks I know want to be able to have a split occasionally, or a piano with strings (which may not be an actual preset on the board for whatever reason). The only reason I suggested a Kronos/Fantom/Montage is that all of those can be set up with a set list of, say, 10 sounds clearly labeled. A person wants a piano...they have one. They want a piano/pad layer...they have one. They want an organ...they have one. Unlike a lot of cheaper boards where you're kind of guessing what sounds are assigned to what buttons if you didn't write it down or memorize it (most volunteers won't be spending a week with a board), there's immediate visual feedback right there on these keyboards.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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In some ways I get the simpler-the-better approach, but a lot of church music now makes use of musical shades and textures that tie in with piano tones - layers, splits, and sometimes both in the same keyboard scene. And basic stage pianos with the capability to layer/split the 'additional' tones have usually come up short when I've used them on church gigs. A church I worked for from 2016-2018 had a Yamaha P255, and an older, little-used S90XS. The P255's piano was a joy to play, but I ended up covered a lot of the current worship song piano/layer-split parts on the S90XS. The extra tones on the P255 just didn't cut it for covering the piano layered scenarios. Great for when the piano stood on its own though.

 

If the church's piano/keyboard player will be using more of the stacked piano-type tones, I think that either of the two proposed instruments could work; though the Stage 3 88 would be more intimidating. I found that it took longer to access and/or setup layered and split scenes; and I've been playing keys for a while. Though once it's familiar to a player, it's a lot of fun to play; the sounds and playability are top notch. I'd find the PC4 to more user friendly, on the surface. It looks dead-simple to set up 2-3 part scenes quickly. The layout seems better gridded to be appealing the someone new to a multi-purpose pro keyboard. And the sounds on the PC4 are also very high quality.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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...the church board had voted to purchase a new keyboard for the Worship Center, sending the current Yamaha MOX8 to the youth group.

 

They are looking at a Nord Stage 3 88.

 

A Nord Stage is a nice keyboard, perhaps luxurious even. But I agree with your thought that it may be overkill. I don't think that Nord makes good financial sense for most people, I don't think they represent very good value for most players. That said, I own a Nord myself (and 17 other keyboards). The extended features might get in the way of using it for the main things that you need to do. Both I think even more important is that the factory sound set, especially the sample synth, is lacking the kind of sounds that are most often used in modern worship music. The pianos are all great. But the synth doesn't have enough of the pads, things to layer behind a piano sound, and more ambient sounds you might want/need. You will want to replace the samples in the synth section with others. You can buy some good sounds for your needs online. Multiracks.com has some good ones but there are other places. But you will find the Nord lacking if you don't take the time to do that.

 

I think a Yamaha P-515 might be more approachable, easier to use, with really great sounds, although limited in features compared to the Nord Stage 3. One step up from there but still relatively easy to navigate, is the Yamaha CP88. Roland FP-90 or RD-2000 would both be excellent choices. I am Musical Director in my church, played and toured with well known worship artists, and I have worked in the synthesizer industry for several decades. I'm pretty comfortable using very complex instruments. But simplicity is of high value, especially for a keyboard that is owned by a church and shared among different players who don't invest many hours into learning all the features. More complex instruments are suited to those who work with them at home regularly. Feel free to contact me by personal message here. I would be happy to talk to members of you board or other decision makers if you like.

 

Mike.

 

Bias: Yes, I might have biases. I worked for Roland for many years and now work as a consultant to Yamaha.

Mike Kent

- Chairman of MIDI 2.0 Working Group

- MIDI Association Executive Board

- Co-Author of USB Device Class Definition for MIDI Devices 1.0 and 2.0

 

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It would be interesting to know how the church board decided to get a Nord Stage 3. IMO, it's definitely overkill if it's going to be used primarily as a "piano". A digital piano would be a more cost effective instrument. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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It would be interesting to know how the church board decided to get a Nord Stage 3. IMO, it's definitely overkill if it's going to be used primarily as a "piano". A digital piano would be a more cost effective instrument. :cool:

 

 

I'm betting they've been looking at all sorts of worship videos where the keyboardists are almost exclusively rocking Nords. The thing is, 95% of the time those people are actually using those pretty red boards as controllers for Mainstage or Ableton, loaded with hundreds of dollars worth of plugins. The Nords aren't going to be able to do all that on their own.

 

 

As others have noted, the sample and synth sections on the Stage are kind of limited if modern worship music is the goal here.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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It would be interesting to know how the church board decided to get a Nord Stage 3. IMO, it's definitely overkill if it's going to be used primarily as a "piano". A digital piano would be a more cost effective instrument. :cool:

 

 

I'm betting they've been looking at all sorts of worship videos where the keyboardists are almost exclusively rocking Nord.

Agreed. It's a terrible reason for a small church to buy one. A gear informed Minister of Music should have some input into the decision.

 

If they absolutely insist on having a keyboard put an Akai MPK261 on the end tier over a Yamaha P-515. :laugh::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I'm betting they've been looking at all sorts of worship videos where the keyboardists are almost exclusively rocking Nords. The thing is, 95% of the time those people are actually using those pretty red boards as controllers for Mainstage or Ableton, loaded with hundreds of dollars worth of plugins.

 

 

I dealt with this when buying our boards. Our (younger) worship leader (who is a killer singer and musician) kept bringing our 'keyboard rig' conversations to Nord (because all the cool churches had them) and to using Mainstage. He struggled to understand that having Mainstage was not a magic bullet to getting the top 40 worship sound used by all the big churches, or that Mainstage and Nord keyboards were just a tools to create music.

 

I've played with a few Nords at GC (years back) and wasn't stunned by them at all. Nice for sure, but not magical.

 

None of this tech plays itself. Its only as good as the person using it.

 

I couldn't get a single good tone out of a Stradivarius because I don't know how to use it. The same idea applies to putting a lot if keyboard technology in front of the typical church pianist. You'll be lucky to get them to layer piano and strings and have them not muck it up.

Kurzweil Forte, Yamaha Motif ES7, Muse Receptor 2 Pro Max, Neo Ventilator
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Okay. there's a lot to unpack in this thread so far. It sounds to me like a meeting is needed with all keys players and the church board to research this a little more. I've been playing Kurz boards for the last twelve years starting with a sp88, then a sp4-8, then a PC3LE and now a PC3A8. So obviously I'm on board with the Kurz ideas. When we've had guest players and new players work the keys they all need simple choices for sounds. therefore we still keep the SP4-8 around just for those times. I haven't met one player who could navigate my PC3A8 and I believe the nord would be just as intimidating. ~BOB
I'm practicing so that people can maybe go "wow" at an imaginary gig I'll never play. -Nadroj
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I played this weekend, and brought my own PC4

 

We do mostly contemporary Christian, so it will be mostly piano/string layers, or some form of pads. This weekend I used piano only on 3 songs, and switched between piano and KB3 on one.

 

I spoke with the board member, the Minister of Finance, and our Pastor. I mentioned that the Nord is a great instrument, I feel there's really no need to spend that much.

 

I gave the minister of music a chance to sit down at mine, and showed him just how easy it was to navigate in live performance.

 

I would love it if they did get the PC4. I really won't get the time to learn the Nord enough to even scratch the surface of its capabilities

 

Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max

I'm betting they've been looking at all sorts of worship videos where the keyboardists are almost exclusively rocking Nords. The thing is, 95% of the time those people are actually using those pretty red boards as controllers for Mainstage or Ableton, loaded with hundreds of dollars worth of plugins.

 

I think that is a big part of it. They think that because they use what looks to be the keyboard used in the videos, they will immediately got that same sound

 

Thing is, due to Covid, then band consists of bass, drums, acoustic guitar, and keys. So, there's no point in even trying to copy the big concert videos where there is a very large band.

 

They should go more for an Unplugged vibe, and keep the keys simple.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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I played this weekend, and brought my own PC4

 

We do mostly contemporary Christian, so it will be mostly piano/string layers, or some form of pads. This weekend I used piano only on 3 songs, and switched between piano and KB3 on one.

 

I spoke with the board member, the Minister of Finance, and our Pastor. I mentioned that the Nord is a great instrument, I feel there's really no need to spend that much.

 

I gave the minister of music a chance to sit down at mine, and showed him just how easy it was to navigate in live performance.

 

I would love it if they did get the PC4. I really won't get the time to learn the Nord enough to even scratch the surface of its capabilities

 

 

What was his reaction? If you really want them to get the PC4, I'd donate it, take the tax writeoff, and if it is a financial hardship for you, use your monthly payments for your replacement instrument as your tithe over the next year.

They can use the $5k on something to help the community - donate food?

Win Win.

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

--

Yamaha C7D

Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3

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