Music Player Network
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
As the I Ching says, "perseverance furthers." That apparently applies to NASA, which was able to autonomously land the Perseverance Mars rover under extremely difficult conditions. A sky crane dropped the rover on to the surface, and because it takes 11 minutes for signals to get from the earth to Mars, there was nothing they could do to alter the landing in case there was a problem.

I know, I know...there are grid issues in Texas, politics is a mess, we have a pandemic. Like we really needed to land something on Mars.

I say we did.

It shows that humans are capable of incredible feats, when a bunch of dedicated people and a razor-thin budget get together.

The goal is to find out about whether life existed on Mars. I'll go one step further: I'd bet there IS life on Mars. It's probably something like lichen, clinging to life in the moisture of a crater. Or maybe it's microbes living under the surface.

Some think that life came to earth from Mars, as hitchhikers on planetary fragments. I don't know.

There are lot of strange things happening on Mars, and you don't have to be a conspiracy theory dude to scratch your head. Sure, there the people who see animals or people in rocks or whatever, like they see the face of Jesus in a piece of toast. But there are also beams of light, what seems to be glass-like lava tubes, seasonal changes, maybe underground lakes. Maybe this is where we started.

Oh, but going to Mars is a waste of money when there's so much that needs to be done here.

I don't buy that. Nurturing human curiosity, showing that dreams can come true, and that we are capable of what was once thought impossible have a value that can't be expressed in dollars alone.

1 member likes this: Mighty Motif Max
Sound, Studio, and Stage Island
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,960
Likes: 373
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,960
Likes: 373
There's critters on Earth that live deep in the ocean and thrive on the sulphuric emissions of undersea volcanic activity. Nothing else lives there (that we know of now anyway).

If something can live there, why not life on Mars?

Do you throw the pennies or use the sticks? It's been a while but I used the iChing as a way of providing a different perspective on my current situation. Sometimes we need to get out of our own head to figure out what's going on in there!


Every Time I Am Wrong, I Learn Something.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,960
Likes: 27
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,960
Likes: 27
I was rather excited about this latest venture and love all the tech on it.

This details how difficult the landing actually was, the tech that was used to land on what they believe is a delta, creating oxygen from carbon dioxide, the Ingenuity helicopter, and other fun stuff.

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-02-17/nasa-perseverence-rover-ready-mars-landing

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
It's fair to ask questions like "Is this a waste of money?", "Does this get us anything?", etc. What we do know is that a number of inventions resulted from space exploration, ranging from shoe insoles to memory foam.

https://www.philips.com/c-w/malegro...ions-that-are-closer-than-you-think.html

Slightly longer list:
https://interestingengineering.com/15-space-age-inventions-and-technologies-we-use-everyday

There are more website but they have those annoying slideshows

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 02/20/21 03:00 AM.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 85
Likes: 4
BMD Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 85
Likes: 4
The exploration of our solar system is fascinating. It just is. Man is intelligent and inquisitive

There's more than enough money in the world's coffers to venture into space and feed the poor. It's all about distribution

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21,945
Likes: 168
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Offline
Triple Secret Banninated
20k Club
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 21,945
Likes: 168
I watched the landing live and it was awesome. They had one guy from the team talking about what was going on live and you could hear how nervous he was. I was really excited for him.

What was cool too was how complicated the landing procedure was (it had to be because landing with a little atmosphere is more difficult than landing someplace with none like the moon or lots like Earth) and how the damned thing did each step perfectly. That took some serious science, as lots of those steps you only get one shot.

Also, it's probably a good thing that this was an unmanned mission, since NASA's center for manned spaceflight and mission control is here in Houston. I'm sure they have some sort of backup in case things go horribly wrong like they did here this past week, but it would have been especially difficult if they had to do that here. Just getting the on-site team (I'm sure it's reduced due to the pandemic) to JSC would probably have been tricky.


​"How long will it take me to master Aikido piano?" a prospective student asks.

"How long do you expect to live?" is the only respectable response.
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 556
Likes: 28
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 556
Likes: 28
Waste of money? I can think of a lot of things that waste money, but I don't include space exploration in that group.

Exploration and war both drive technological progress by their respective needs. I prefer exploration.

I suspect there is life elsewhere in our solar system. Mars? Venus? Titan? Who knows. Not "little green men" but some form of life.

I also suspect there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, but the distances are so great, we will probably never know for sure.

It takes over 4 years for light or any other member of the electromagnetic spectrum to go from our nearest star neighbor, Alpha Centauri and get here. The closest known galaxy to us is the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, and it takes 25,000 years for a signal to get to us. How long have humans had radio communication? A little over 100 years.

Unless anyone can figure out how to go faster than the speed of light, we won't be able to visit our "space brothers" -- if there are any (unless they figure it out first)..

But progress comes in a lot of small steps before we get a giant leap. If we find life on Mars, it's a wonderful small step. Even if we don't we are sure to learn a lot, and learning is what got us out of the caves and jungle.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton
Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<
1 member likes this: Mighty Motif Max
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
Originally Posted by BMD
The exploration of our solar system is fascinating. It just is. Man is intelligent and inquisitive

There's more than enough money in the world's coffers to venture into space and feed the poor. It's all about distribution

I'm with you 100% on this.

1 member likes this: Mighty Motif Max
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I also suspect there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe

I'd settle for intelligent life here smile

1 member likes this: Notes_Norton
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Platinum Member
Online Happy
Platinum Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Space exploration is something that is vastly underappreciated but essentially important. In the minds of many, it can be cut first, right along with music programs. Yet I would argue that nothing is as essential to the future of humanity as space exploration and the technologies it creates are. But idiots from across all sorts of ideological spectrums don't always see it that way.

Yes, I have strong feelings on the matter.



Also...discovering intelligent life elsewhere really is of secondary importance in many ways.


Side note...I just *love* how the news by and large ignored the mission. I'm literally an astrophysics/EE student doing astronomy research on the side and this hadn't even popped up on my radar until today. taz


Yamaha Motif XF8/YS200/CVP-305/CLP-130/YPG-235/PSR-295/PSS-470 | E-mu Proteus/1/PROformance Plus/Mo'Phatt
Roland JV-1000/Fantom XR | Korg Krome 61 | Kurzweil PC3 | Casio CT-370
Organs/Accordions/Etc.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
Originally Posted by GovernorSilver
Slightly longer list:
https://interestingengineering.com/15-space-age-inventions-and-technologies-we-use-everyday

There are more website but they have those annoying slideshows

Ok, this was corny of them to use this photo for CAT Scans - one of the technologies made possible by space exploration. But, dayyum that is a huge ass Cat in there.

[Linked Image from inteng-storage.s3.amazonaws.com]

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Platinum Member
Online Happy
Platinum Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Here kitty kitty


Yamaha Motif XF8/YS200/CVP-305/CLP-130/YPG-235/PSR-295/PSS-470 | E-mu Proteus/1/PROformance Plus/Mo'Phatt
Roland JV-1000/Fantom XR | Korg Krome 61 | Kurzweil PC3 | Casio CT-370
Organs/Accordions/Etc.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
The main reason it's not a waste of money is because China is also going for it. Money thrown at tech means innovation *will* happen, and the U.S. doesn't want to get caught on the back foot. Tech infrastructure provides wiggle room.

And the psychology of it on the social conscious shouldn't be minimized. While it would be great if the money was spent on humanitarian things - making the water in Flint drinkable, insuring schools are safe from covid, making vaccinations more available, providing stimulus, on and on.... they *are* going to spend the money based on the corporations that control the U.S. government. I'd rather it be the space program than bombs on U.S. built planes being dropped by Saudis in Yemen.


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,359
Likes: 56
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,359
Likes: 56
I really like the direction that NASA has taken, focusing on probes rather than human travel. It is much more cost efficient and scientifically productive. We have sent probes all the way to Pluto and now are heading to the oort cloud. As for life, I wonder about Jupiter. Not the moons where most scientists are searching. Jupiter itself. Yes it is a gas planet and very cold on the surface, but the interior of Jupiter is extremely hot. This temperature change comes gradually as you go further down. There has to be layers where the temperature is conducive to life. Can a forum of life develop there that can withstand the pressure and remain at that level?


This post edited for speling.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 861
Likes: 29
MPN Advisory Board
Gold Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
Gold Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 861
Likes: 29
And they used a DPA 4006 mic capsule connected by a DPA active cable to DPA's A/D-to-USB converter setup. You can listen to the sound of Mars here.

From a DPA press release:

"Last week, after months of rigorous space travel, the Perseverance Rover touched down on the surface of Mars. On board was a DPA 4006 Omnidirectional Microphone, MMA-A Digital Audio Interface and MMP-G Modular Active Cable. After the rover touched down, audio and video files were recorded from the surface and transmitted to NASA’s base station.

NASA sent these files to DPA’s engineering team for processing and now, following several days of review, you can hear what this incredibly durable mic solution captured from the surface.

Everything about the mission — from the launch to the landing — is hostile, insofar as a microphone is generally concerned. It’s very exciting to know that DPA was able to record something from so many millions of miles away, and have the sound travel back to us so quickly."

I think they needed a better wind screen - unless wind turns out to be the most important sound, which I think may be the case.

1 member likes this: RABid
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
Maybe they can extrapolate wind speed/turbulence data from the rumble. Surely someone at DPA would have mentioned "hey, there's going to be sub-sonic rumble". I suppose designing a Mars-proof dead cat might have been a daunting challenge....


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,359
Likes: 56
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,359
Likes: 56
No. No dead cat! I want to hear the rumble from those infamous dust devils. smile


This post edited for speling.
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,995
Likes: 48
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,995
Likes: 48
Mars didn't have a robust enough molten core to hold on to its atmosphere and become a functioning world, so it must have big lithium reserves or China would not be going. rolleyes Mars needs women? No, Earth needs more smartphones. China bought a huge copper field in southern Afghanistan. Follow the money, sometimes right into the guts of your new synth.

Mars? Again? Sorry, but I think that kind of money should be applied to finding better energy sources than bloody lithium first. THEN we'd have more practical power for GOING further into space, as well as living up to the rosy BS about electric cars being a fix for anything. Tell me how you're going to dispose of all those dead batteries and nasty dead solar panels (Yum, gallium arsenide!) before you start trumpeting about imaginary advancements & sci-fi potential. How about developing an antibiotic that works on a new basis? I've read of several interesting starts and with the pandemic ongoing, you'd think someone would still care that the last-line carbapenems are often failing in non-COVID situations. Real-world pragmatism should win out more often. I'm sure the woman whose 3 kids froze to death in Texas is thrilled that we landed a helicopter on Mars.

Also, space is a mass of severe radiation and a lack of gravity that erodes bone mass in astronauts over time. Mars is merely an expensive amusement until you resolve shielding and artificial gravity. Hooray for the human spirit and technical advancement, but it won't go far in a world of bleached coral reefs and data mining for Bitcoin that eats up quite a lot of the available energy. You think Arturia's Matrix-12V eats up CPU? Here, meet this data farm.

Sorry to seem so pissy, but facts don't give you leprosy of the weiner. They're more likely to help you avoid having it fall off needlessly. I'm deeply impressed by that near-pinpoint landing- only 16 FEET askew, IIRC!- and the underlying gratification in seeing that a large team CAN get sh*t done. Its part of why I follow the advancements in synths with wide eyes. Its the subtext of belonging to The Group when you see the 20 minutes of credits it takes to list every team member on a Marvel movie. I simply think global MELTING comes before landing things on Mars, unless you are sending the following list of politicians, pop stars, lawyers and sterno bums: (DELETE)

My point: I barely have the right to comment, because I am a hypocritical bastard who is planning to buy a new Mac. facepalm


To leave a screaming curse-fest for an 8-bit AI that will just dump it in a tertiary buffer for the NSA to review next August, press 6.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 9,867
Likes: 281
Originally Posted by David Emm
Mars? Again? Sorry, but I think that kind of money should be applied to finding better energy sources than bloody lithium first. THEN we'd have more practical power for GOING further into space, as well as living up to the rosy BS about electric cars being a fix for anything. Tell me how you're going to dispose of all those dead batteries and nasty dead solar panels (Yum, gallium arsenide!) before you start trumpeting about imaginary advancements & sci-fi potential. How about developing an antibiotic that works on a new basis? I've read of several interesting starts and with the pandemic ongoing, you'd think someone would still care that the last-line carbapenems are often failing in non-COVID situations. Real-world pragmatism should win out more often. I'm sure the woman whose 3 kids froze to death in Texas is thrilled that we landed a helicopter on Mars.

The kids who froze to death didn't do so because a space ship was on its way to Mars. And, the amount of money being spent on the space program is far less than what others companies are spending to find better energy sources. NASA spent $2.8 billion over 10 years on all of Perseverance. Tesla spent $1.5 billion in 2020 alone on R&D, and that's just one company. Diverting Perseverence's budget to companies around the world already trying to crack the code for cheaper energy would probably be enough to keep the vending machines in their break rooms supplied for 10 years smile

Also, the law of unintended consequences works both ways. When Sputnik first went up, I don't think anyone thought we were going to get cochlear implants, GPS, safer airplane navigation, and vastly more accurate hurricane predictions that saved lives - maybe even three people in Texas - as a result. Some of my best music happened not because I was trying to make better music, but because I discovered it along the way to something else.

Ultimately, perhaps this trip to Mars might be a dead end...but it might not be. To put things in perspective, the cost of Perseverance over 10 years is 20x what was spent on golfing vacations for the president over the past four years. I believe a space mission has the potential to produce a greater return on investment, but we'll see.

I truly feel that fueling human curiosity and inspiration has benefits. I'll never forget when, in 1968, I saw the earth for what it really was - a blue, beautiful oasis in the coldness of space. It changed my view of the world, and the views of others, profoundly..

It was worth what it cost.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

1 member likes this: Mighty Motif Max
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Platinum Member
Online Happy
Platinum Member
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,749
Likes: 80
Originally Posted by David Emm
Mars? Again? Sorry, but I think that kind of money should be applied to finding better energy sources than bloody lithium first. THEN we'd have more practical power for GOING further into space, as well as living up to the rosy BS about electric cars being a fix for anything. Tell me how you're going to dispose of all those dead batteries and nasty dead solar panels (Yum, gallium arsenide!) before you start trumpeting about imaginary advancements & sci-fi potential. How about developing an antibiotic that works on a new basis? I've read of several interesting starts and with the pandemic ongoing, you'd think someone would still care that the last-line carbapenems are often failing in non-COVID situations. Real-world pragmatism should win out more often. I'm sure the woman whose 3 kids froze to death in Texas is thrilled that we landed a helicopter on Mars.

Please tell me how you know that something won't be discovered on Mars that can help revamp our energy sources. Tell me that there can't be a breakthrough in fusion technology using data from a space mission. You know what was "sci-fi" to most people a year ago? A modern pandemic of this size and viciousness. Lithium is a huge issue I agree, but that is not really a useful comparison here. I'm guessing you understand that other planets and spacial bodies are known to have different concentrations of elements? The only sci-fi here is the idea that we can solve everything on earth using nothing but the same resources we've been depleting for millennia.

Originally Posted by David Emm
I simply think global MELTING comes before landing things on Mars...

Or you could look at this as a step toward having a backup plan. Not to mention that atmospheric data from Mars isn't exactly useless in the study of climate change.

And don't forget the estimates of the actual percentage of an effect that reducing carbon emissions to net zero would actually have. Current research would indicate that if we go to net zero temperatures will still be rising in the 26th century. We can try to not make it worse, but actually stopping the increase is something entirely different.

Last edited by Mighty Motif Max; 02/24/21 04:48 AM.

Yamaha Motif XF8/YS200/CVP-305/CLP-130/YPG-235/PSR-295/PSS-470 | E-mu Proteus/1/PROformance Plus/Mo'Phatt
Roland JV-1000/Fantom XR | Korg Krome 61 | Kurzweil PC3 | Casio CT-370
Organs/Accordions/Etc.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,960
Likes: 373
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,960
Likes: 373
I want to address both David Emm's hysterically cynical and well written post and Craig's equally well written reply with one simple thought.

When we spend money on a project of any type, at any cost - does that money then simply go away? It vanishes, right?
Yep, straight into the pockets of those who spend it on other things or park it somewhere to "grow" over time (competing with ever rising costs?). Eventually, somebody spends it no matter the interim.

Money is a cycle, like water. We drink water, piss it out, flush it down, eventually it makes it's way back to the ocean one way or another, then it evaporates and becomes clouds which get blown back over land and rain which forms streams, rivers, lakes and... drinking water. And the cycle starts over again. The only way to wreck water or money is to stop it from circulating.

Yes, Space Programs cost money. They also circulate money. There are all sorts of manufactured goods in spacecraft, like rivets. Gotta pay the rivet makers so they can afford Chicken McMaggots, right? Then minimum wage college students get paid for frying the McMaggots just so and no other way and whoever delivered the oil for frying them got paid etc., etc., etc...

So David - BUY THAT MAC!!!! I was at Costco today for the first time in years and got kinda drooly over the 27" iMac until the specs showed 8 megs of pissy little ram (does not deserve capitalization). Apple won't give Costco the cool iMacs with buttloads of RAM but you can get a $600 Billy G laptop with that much.

Anybody insane enough to get in a space ship and go off into the vast morass of the unknown should be sent there immediately. Just don't give them money, the Martians probably have their own currency anyway.


Every Time I Am Wrong, I Learn Something.
2 members like this: David Emm, Mighty Motif Max
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,635
Likes: 66
Missions to Mars fall under this thing called "Space Exploration".

This "Space Exploration" thing has so far produced an array of valuable inventions. Some of these inventions may end up saving your bacon, as they have saved the lives of many, many other people on THIS planet. I already mentioned CAT Scans, but there's also LVAD, Laser Angioplasty... list just goes on and on. If you're of a certain age, you are likely to need one of those inventions soon.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/nasa-inventions/nasa-breakthroughs-in-medicine.htm

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 02/24/21 08:15 PM.
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 556
Likes: 28
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 556
Likes: 28
Both war and exploration expand our technical horizons. I'll pick exploration any day.

Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton
Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,960
Likes: 14
Originally Posted by David Emm
Mmust have big lithium reserves or China would not be going. rolleyes



finding better energy sources than bloody lithium first.

THEN we'd have more practical power for GOING further into space,

as well as living up to the rosy BS about electric cars being a fix for anything.

nasty dead solar panels (Yum, gallium arsenide!) before you start trumpeting about imaginary advancements & sci-fi potential.



Sometimes I wish it was still 1973, too.


Quote
. I'm sure the woman whose 3 kids froze to death in Texas is thrilled that we landed a helicopter on Mars.


Meanwhile the people living off grid on solar drove their EVs to help others, coming home to a warm home.


Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com
Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

Moderated by  Anderton 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5