Free Jazz I need an explanation

[El Lobo]

I had a free jazz-rock group in the 70's. We had a regular weekly gig at a bar. I was on guitar then -- I'm mainly a sax player, keyboards came later. We'd pick a key and just go. My buddy was on vocals and congas. He'd make up melodies and lyrics about what was going on in the bar and about the people. Sometimes it was mediocre noodling but once in a while it was transcendent -- for the players as well as the audience in the bar. From that experience I listened to some other truly free jazz, music that is completely improvised. Some of it I could appreciate but most of it strikes me as self-indulgent as the free jazz-rock I played in the 70's. It's for the player, not the listener. If listeners can find something in it to appreciate, that's well and good. But for me, mostly there's nothing there.

 

I have to add that I've never been much of a jazz appreciator. I was raised on rock. I listened to a lot of jazz -- Coltrane and all the greats. I listened hard to Charlie Parker when I was young, in order to understand what was there and why people were into it. It just never did it for me. I can appreciate the talent and skill and creativity that goes into great jazz playing but it doesn't make me sink into it like a great rock sax solo, or me digging into a plain ol' 12-bar blues. I play and listen to music for pleasure, not to be intellectually challenged. At my age, I can do what I damn please and I don't have to impress anybody, including myself.

[MAJUSCULE]

Gonna need you to do a little more research and listen a little harder if you actually want to "get it", Paul. Remember that this is a language and a culture that developed over an extensive period of time, with large regional and sociopolitical connotations. You can't just ask for someone on a forum to tell you what's happening and expect to have everything make sense all of a sudden.

 

Even if you just take the four artists you named, listen to their discographies chronologically, read up on their lives, and try to understand those four personal journeys, you'll be in it for quite some time.

[Muad’Dib]

Thank You Eric!

[El Lobo]

If you're playing music for an audience that you believe can't understand it, then you are playing for yourself, not for them. That's ok. Perfectly legitimate approach. But you forfeit the right to be upset if the audience doesn't appreciate the music you play.

[David R]

One way I get my students inside the music is to listen to various renditions of a standard while following along with a lead sheet. So if you listen to Miles Davis or Keith Jarrett or Mulgrew Miller or McCoy Tyner play "If I Were a Bell," you can hear and see how they phrase the melody against how it's written. With that frame of reference, I find it's a little easier to get inside what's happening in original compositions â the same way the post-bop generation of Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea and Kenny Wheeler came out of bebop virtuosos exploring every corner of the Great American Songbook.

 

Free jazz is a whole other listening experience, and there are multiple sub-genres there in. Players who come out of Ornette Coleman et al. (imo) are taking the interplay of bebop and postbop to the nth degree â the melody is supreme without being tied to the hierarchy or structure of a 32-bar song form. Later you get into the "energy" music of Albert Ayler and others that's really just about pure sonic expression through one's instrument. (To be totally honest, there's some players in that "energy music" bag that I can't get into, it's become a formulaic way of playing in its own right). Many of the artists linked to the AACM in Chicago were about embracing the totality of Black music from ragtime to energy music and really exploring the possibilities of being Black improvising composer/performers. The work of Anthony Braxton, Wadada Leo Smith and Henry Threadgill has as much to do with contemporary concert music as it does with jazz or blues. The European lineages of free improvisation and the influence of noise (both American and Japanese) have really changed the landscape of contemporary free improvisation as well.

 

All this is a long-winded way of saying that you need to find a more specific way in, and if some of the music doesn't connect with you, then that's cool too.

[MathOfInsects]

I think it's worth noting that for most listeners, ALL jazz is "free jazz." It sounds like playing all the wrong notes.

 

The term itself is more specific to live-improvised non-tonal music, and that's the toughest nut for most casual listeners to crack. But just about all jazz except for the Kenny G school of instrumental lullabies *sounds* atonal to most casual listeners.

 

I also want to say to the OP that there is no requirement that you like jazz. It's a niche art form almost completely held aloft by The Academy (and the players it produces), and if it doesn't bring you pleasure to listen to it, you have no obligation to.

[Muad’Dib]

I think it's worth noting that for most listeners, ALL jazz is "free jazz." It sounds like playing all the wrong notes.

 

The term itself is more specific to live-improvised non-tonal music, and that's the toughest nut for most casual listeners to crack. But just about all jazz except for the Kenny G school of instrumental lullabies *sounds* atonal to most casual listeners.

 

I also want to say to the OP that there is no requirement that you like jazz. It's a niche art form almost completely held aloft by The Academy (and the players it produces), and if it doesn't bring you pleasure to listen to it, you have no obligation to.

 

 

First off my name is Paul. Second, it"s not that I dislike jazz, there are some performances i don"t care for, but for the most part. There is Jazz that i like. Jelly Roll Morton. I do like Dave Brubeck. John Coltrane is hard for me.

[NewImprov]

I'm a huge fan of a lot of music that gets categorized as free jazz, though I think there is a lot of music put under that banner that is not fully free improvised. I was lucky enough to have educators in high school and college who turned me on to some pretty adventurous music early on, and for some reason, I've always responded to it.

 

An example, I love Sun Ra, and was fortunate enough to see him and the Arkestra a number of times in the'80's. He gets put into the free-jazz box, but, in the course of a concert, his band would range from total cacophony free improv to heavily swinging arrangements, often of classic Fletcher Henderson tunes (Ra was in Henderson's band at one point). There would be some through composed tunes,. like his Disciplines pieces, that sounded improvised. And there would be his percussion workpouts and "Space Chants." One thing that doesn't seem to translate is just how joyful and positive these [performances were, you would always leave smiling.

 

I have a hard time listening to a lot of Coltrane's late music. Of course, A Love Supreme is one of the most beautiful things ever recorded, but things like Ascension and Live in Japan, even I find difficult going. I think I understand what he was going for, an appreciate that, but don't find myself going back to the music that often. However, I absolutely love Alice Coltrane's jazz albums, and the Pharoah Sanders albums of the late 60's and 70's.

 

I studied Anthony Braxton extensively in college, and actually got to meet him a few times, have seen him play many times. Braxton's music gets characterized as free jazz, but is actually highly organized, just not around standard jazz harmonies and rhythms. A lot of his stuff sounds like it's free, often very noisy and cacophonous, but there are compositions underlying it. I love his stuff, but can see that it's difficult going for most listeners. He's also one of the nicest and smartest human beings you will ever meet, if you are so lucky.

 

There is a lot of free-improvised music that is more fun for the musicians creating it than the audience watching, but, having seen and participated in some absolutely transcendent free improv performances, there is a space that it can get to that can be completely amazing for both.

[jazzpiano88]

Paul,

I think sometimes it's worth going into the wading pool and gradually getting comfortable, like swimming.

 

Try these two of the same song without going past 4 feet in the pool (there should be no perceived random notes in either except for possibly the guitar solo and keyboard clusters (likely an interval transpose trick) in the second version):

An argument could be made that they're Blues (they are, but what isn't )

 

Also, there are a plethora of "Normal" classic pop songs that have been re harmonized for Jazz by various Jazz artists. Start with a song like Misty.

 

Very Basic Harmony:

[video:youtube]

 

Much more complex Harmony (relatively) (Bass: Abe Laboriel Guitar: Scott Henderson):

[Muad’Dib]

Thank you JazzPiano88!

[El Lobo]

I've played Mercy Mercy Mercy on keyboard and on sax many times in blues-rock jams. It's kind of a standard in jams, like The Chicken. It's certainly not free jazz. I think of it more as rock than jazz. It's really very r&b in its changes, not very jazz standard or 2-5-1. The Buckinghams even had a pop hit with it.

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Okay, so I once had the same opinion growing up. It didn't make any sense to me.

 

As my ear developed further and my playing skills grew, I started understanding it a little more. Pretty soon I really liked it. Currently, it's probably my second favorite genre. It took the span of 7 years or so for it to go from something I hated to my second favorite genre.

 

Part of it was finding some good music that incorporated elements of what I call modern jazz fusion/atonal music. I get that those aren't the same thing exactly, it's just how I think of the music lol. Anyways, I happen to like some Gospel music, like modern Gospel, and that music has quite a bit of this kind of thing going on. Tritones, etc, things that I'm not able to play at this point but that I like listening to because I aspire to it. There's also the proliferation of time signature changes in a lot of modern jazz that worked its way over from eastern Europe, which takes some getting used to for most people. (Admittedly, I'm a Balkan music junkie so it wasn't so hard for me.)

 

Then I found the band Snarky Puppy. That changed everything for me personally.

 

So, here's a test for you.

 

What's your opinion on this song?

 

[video:youtube]

 

This clip? These two are improvising right on the spot around a theme from one of Emily's songs.

 

[video:youtube]

 

This one?

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

And how about this? This has a more accessible pop twist to it.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

And finally this.

 

[video:youtube]

 

I'm just curious to see where you fall compared to me at different points. Please check them out and let me know.

 

It's important to note that, generally speaking, these musicians aren't playing "wrong notes". They perceive/recognize harmonic relationships and interconnections that many of us do not, even those of us who are musicians. There's a reason that many of these folks are considered world-class.

 

 

Admittedly, there are some things I haven't warmed up to, like a lot of Jacob Collier's music, but I understand that it's something I haven't developed an ear or developed musically enough to appreciate just yet.

[El Lobo]

Start with a song like Misty.

Here's the great R&B and rock sax player King Curtis version of Misty. I sat in on sax with some friends' trio one night and the lead player/vocalist threw the King Curtis version of Misty at me. I complained that it was like being thrown into the final exam with no preparation. I got through it without embarrassing myself too much and the keys player said I passed. I think he was being kind. But listen to the King on Misty changes.

 

[Muad’Dib]

Yes, i like these Max!

[MathOfInsects]

First off my name is Paul. Second, it"s not that I dislike jazz, there are some performances i don"t care for, but for the most part. There is Jazz that i like. Jelly Roll Morton. I do like Dave Brubeck. John Coltrane is hard for me.

 

Hello, Paul. OP just means the Original Post or Original Poster, which in this case is you. :smile:

 

My point is, it's not a deficit in you if you dislike some kinds of music and not others, or even some slice of some kind of music. The avant-garde is like a laboratory; what happens there sometimes trickles out into everyday usage, and other times it stays in the lab.

 

What is your favorite kind of music to listen to?

[Mighty Motif Max]

Yes, i like these Max!

 

Okay, interesting. How did you manage to listen to all of them that quickly?

 

 

That aside, I put "Lingus" on Spotify the other day at my college. Everyone in the room thought I was kind of weird. Just goes to show how much variance there is in musical taste!

 

 

Can you post a few examples of what type of jazz you're wondering about?

[jazzpiano88]

I've played Mercy Mercy Mercy on keyboard and on sax many times in blues-rock jams. It's kind of a standard in jams, like The Chicken. It's certainly not free jazz. I think of it more as rock than jazz. It's really very r&b in its changes

 

Many Jazz tunes are at their fundamental level, r&b changes, as you know. I was attempting to show how a song written by Joe Zawinul can go from a very basic formulation that any non-jazz-afficionado would find pleasing, to much more complex harmony arrangement with more dissonant chords and complex solos to contrast and potentially get comfortable with.

[Muad’Dib]

First off my name is Paul. Second, it"s not that I dislike jazz, there are some performances i don"t care for, but for the most part. There is Jazz that i like. Jelly Roll Morton. I do like Dave Brubeck. John Coltrane is hard for me.

 

Hello, Paul. OP just means the Original Post or Original Poster, which in this case is you. :smile:

 

My point is, it's not a deficit in you if you dislike some kinds of music and not others, or even some slice of some kind of music. The avant-garde is like a laboratory; what happens there sometimes trickles out into everyday usage, and other times it stays in the lab.

 

What is your favorite kind of music to listen to?

 

 

I enjoy, classical Bach, Mozart, Beethoven etc. Rock, pop, Heavy Metal, 70"s and 80"s Rap and HipHop not Gangster Rap. New Wave, Electronic: Erasure, Pet Shop boys. A lot of music before auto tune. Not, a Huge fan of Niki Ménage, or Ariana Grande or Tones and I.

[Muad’Dib]

Yes, i like these Max!

 

Okay, interesting. How did you manage to listen to all of them that quickly?

 

 

That aside, I put "Lingus" on Spotify the other day at my college. Everyone in the room thought I was kind of weird. Just goes to show how much variance there is in musical taste!

 

 

Can you post a few examples of what type of jazz you're wondering about?

 

 

I listened to the first few seconds and knew i would enjoy it.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Yes, i like these Max!

 

Okay, interesting. How did you manage to listen to all of them that quickly?

 

 

That aside, I put "Lingus" on Spotify the other day at my college. Everyone in the room thought I was kind of weird. Just goes to show how much variance there is in musical taste!

 

 

Can you post a few examples of what type of jazz you're wondering about?

 

 

I listened to the first few seconds and knew i would enjoy it.

 

Maybe that's part of the issue. You can't evaluate something based on the first few seconds really. Especially this kind of music. Take a listen to them in their entirety when you have a chance, and report back then. Trust me on this.

[Muad’Dib]

Yes, i like these Max!

 

Okay, interesting. How did you manage to listen to all of them that quickly?

 

 

That aside, I put "Lingus" on Spotify the other day at my college. Everyone in the room thought I was kind of weird. Just goes to show how much variance there is in musical taste!

 

 

Can you post a few examples of what type of jazz you're wondering about?

 

 

I listened to the first few seconds and knew i would enjoy it.

 

Maybe that's part of the issue. You can't evaluate something based on the first few seconds really. Especially this kind of music. Take a listen to them in their entirety when you have a chance, and report back then. Trust me on this.

 

 

To be fair it"s 11:20pm here in Maryland.

[Mighty Motif Max]

No problem. It's late here too lol. Just take a listen to them when you have time. Don't try tonight unless you want to stay up late lol. That wasn't what I meant.

[Muad’Dib]

The Tanpura does NOT belong in Jazz Music. ð

[Mighty Motif Max]

The Tanpura does NOT belong in Jazz Music. ð

 

I tend to disagree, but that depends on the definition of jazz. Eastern elements are not uncommon in jazz *fusion* music. Other jazz, yeah, it's not seen much.

[Muad’Dib]

It"s avant-garde jazz, that I can"t embrace. The performances you listed were enjoyable. The Jazz pieces I am familiar with: Smooth Operator by SADE, or Linus and Lucy by Vince Guraldi. I also enjoy Jelly Roll Morton and King Oliver.

[bfields]

Thelonius Monk was one of a kind. But his music wouldn't fit anyone's definition of "free jazz".

[Spider76]

I also have a hard time listening to (let alone enjoying) free jazz, to me it all sounds like endless simultaneous noodling from a bunch of soloists who happen to be in the same room for no apparent reason.

 

Fun for the players (maybe...), a torture for the public.

If music is a language, how can an audience understand an idiom with no words, no grammar, no defined sounds?

To me, free jazz is the musical (?) equivalent of Yoko Ono's screaming. Avant-garde art, important in its own historical context and as an intellectual tool, but hardly aesthetically enjoyable.

 

Reading this thread I obviously admit my ignorance, but I can't understand the vast majority of the links that were posted. Isn't free jazz supposed to be, well, free? Without a pre-defined harmonic, rhythmic and melodic structure?

If a song has a title and a defined structure (chorus, refarins, ostinatoes...), it may have long improvised sections but how can it be "free" jazz?

 

In my limited view, Jarrett's improvised concerts are free jazz. Coleman or late Coltrane are. But Mercy mercy mercy? Snarky Puppy?

[Muad’Dib]

I"m starting to think? I should have titled this thread better?

[KuruPrionz]

It"s avant-garde jazz, that I can"t embrace. The performances you listed were enjoyable. The Jazz pieces I am familiar with: Smooth Operator by SADE, or Linus and Lucy by Vince Guraldi. I also enjoy Jelly Roll Morton and King Oliver.

 

Neither of those songs are jazz, they are "jazzy" pop music.

 

Regarding Tamboura, Jazz is a sound and a style. It was originally played on the instruments that were available in the regions that developed the style. This will be true of all musics, always. It does not mean that things are not allowed to change, at least not in "people's music". Classical music adheres to strict rules, but even those rules are broken - Deep Purple did an album with a symphony orchestra.

 

Since rock and roll started out with acoustic pianos, stand-up bass and hollow body electric guitars, are people not allowed to play electronic keyboards/drums and solid body instruments?

Leonard Cohen often toured with an amazing oud player in tow, is that wrong and bad?

 

There are more options for expression now and people are going to use them. They may define the particular music when used but they do not define the genre.

[jarrell]

Seems like this thread has ranged from the understanding or appreciation of free jazz, to post hard bop jazz, or fusion, or...

 

So in general why should I have to study a style in order to like or appreciate it?

 

You are what you listen to... I think a lot of people here grew up listening to American/British pop music, say from from Beatles on - Stones, Beach Boys, Motown, Stax, Led Zeppelin, Elton John, Billy Joel, The Police, Fleetwood Mac, Springsteen, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Taylor Swift, Billie Eilish etc. etc.

 

If instead our parents, radio, and commercials played mostly free jazz, or Ligeti, or Puccini, we would no doubt love and understand that music (without having to consciously study it). Pop culture is the water we swim in, so to speak. Similarly, we grew up in a tonal, 12 tone to the octave well tempered ocean, and hearing other tuning systems is interesting but hard to totally get into - not too much pop music written in Partch's 43 tone scale.

 

In general a subject you aren't familiar with requires some time, attention and study to be able to appreciate, if it is a musical style or physics or programming. A subject you have been immersed in all your life you might not realize you have been studying all your life, like the language you speak. While people do study English in school, even people who don't go to school master the language and understand the uses of various tenses, cases endings, singular and plural rules, word order in sentences, adjectives and adverbs and whatnot. But if you didn't learn it growing up, and want to learn another language as an adult, you have to take time to study it.

 

tl;dr - if there is a style of music you don't like, it may be because unlike the styles you do like, you haven't spent a lifetime listening to it.