How to plug Leslie into the house PA?

[MrVegas]

I play keys at my church on Sundays and most of my playing is Hammond clone stuff. I'm using a Motion Sound KBR-3D which is on it's last legs. The reason I have loved it is because I can go straight into the house PA via the XLR outputs on the Motion Sound. I can also play pads/synths using the non-rotary channels of the Motion Sound.

 

In my quest to replace the Motion Sound, I am finding that none of the Leslie cabinets (old or new) have an XLR out feature, they have to be mic'd. Well we have a pretty inept sound team at my church and I don't want to go through the hassle of trying to get a Leslie mic'd up. We play pretty loud so getting my Hammond sounds into the mains is necessary.

 

Anybody have any suggestions?

[wineandkeyz]

If your sound team is that inept, I'd run your clone into your Vent pedal and through a DI to FOH.

[Doerfler]

[Bill H.]

Taking a step back... have you access to a Leslie, or are you just thinking about getting one? If the answer is the latter...

[mate stubb]

I fail to see how plugging XLRs into the Motion Sound's built in microphone outputs is different than plugging XLRs into external mics.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Less chance of feedback from inept sound people messing with gain maybe. And a better sound than an amateur micing most likely.

[MrVegas]

I should have been more clear. I have a Vent but don't really like it. So I'm using a Motion Sound right now at church and it has the XLR outs. I was hoping that some of the newer Leslie's had XLR's but I think the answer is no. I wouldn't mind trying a Motion Sound Pro-145 but those are nowhere to be found.

[RABid]

XLR's would bypass the speaker motion which is the point of a Leslie cabinet. That is why most all Leslie cabinets don't have them. It defeats the purpose of the cabinet. At best they would have built in motion effects to compensate at the XLR, but it will most likely not be as good as the Vent.

[AnotherScott]

In my quest to replace the Motion Sound, I am finding that none of the Leslie cabinets (old or new) have an XLR out feature, they have to be mic'd.

Of course any actual moving speaker has to be mic'd to get the effect... the only reason the Motion Sound approach works is that they built the microphones into the cabinet, which is clever. The other issue you have to deal with here is NOT having rotary effect on your other sounds. Most Leslies don't have an allowance for that, either. Maybe getting another Motion Sound would be what would work best for you. I'm not aware of any other company that makes rotary speakers with built in microphones.

[MrVegas]

Now I feel like a total idiot. Of course a Leslie has to be mic'd. Duh.

[Bill H.]

Kronos 88, Yamaha MOXF8, Neo Ventilator II

 

 

My apologies MrVegas... it's right there in your sig. But I don't see mic'ing a Leslie being all that different than what you have been doing - regardless of the sound system. It's just going to take some work on your part getting the sound right.

 

And getting the right mics. I used to use SM57s and loved them, but there are probably better choices today. Maybe forumites who are currently gigging with mic'ed Leslies will help out.

 

Edit: I'm a little late to the party (see above).

[The Real MC]

Well we have a pretty inept sound team at my church

 

Define 'inept'

 

"Inept" meaning they use the gain knob as a volume control?

 

And getting the right mics. I used to use SM57s and loved them, but there are probably better choices today. Maybe forumites who are currently gigging with mic'ed Leslies will help out.

 

I'm currently gigging a Leslie 760.

 

The band recorded a show on multitrack and I made demo tracks from it in my studio. After hearing the isolated Leslie tracks I learned that the mics I used were pretty bad - too much stage bleed and the lower rotor mic was distorting. I placed my speaker for piano and other non-rotary keyboard sounds on top of the Leslie, and THAT was bleeding into the Leslie mics! I had to re-record my Hammond tracks, so I experimented with different mics.

 

Micing a Leslie with a live band is a challenge. Placing the Leslie too close to amps and drums will result in stage bleed. Choice of mics is very subjective as everybody has their tone preferences. Everybody has preferences to mic distance to balance chorale vs tremolo effects and the changes in tone further alters the choice of mic. You would be shocked how various microphones sound different on Leslie cabinets especially the top rotor. After experimenting in the studio I settled on these mics:

 

Top AKG D321 @ 12" distance

Bottom Sennheiser e609 @ 16" distance

 

"Distance" is relative to the port of the rotor.

 

The AKG is long out of production, the e609 is still available as of 2020. Neither of these are expensive.

 

Like gospel players, I'm a drawbar artist who uses much more than just 888000000. So the top rotor is crucial. SM57 wasn't bad, to my ears the D321 sounds better on the top rotor. I thought my pro quality SDC (small diaphragm condenser) mics would sound great but that was not the case. Whatever you use you might need a windscreen; when the rotor is on tremolo it generates a lot of wind. When the top rotor is in chorale speed I do not want to hear much tremolo. Believe it or not it does take the right microphone. Some players install the mics right inside the cabinet; while this is convenient from gig to gig, it limits the choice of mics and they were too close to the horns for my preference. But if you like your Motion Sound, have you considered scavenging the internal mics from it and installing them in your next Leslie?

 

Unless you're playing left hand bass on the Hammond, the bottom rotor doesn't need a LDC (large diaphragm capsule) like an AKG D-112. A LDC can reproduce the bass frequencies very well but you don't need all that bass in a band context. LDCs may not reproduce the mids in the bottom rotor - the Leslie crossover is set to 800hz so there"s lots of midrange in that bottom rotor. The e609 won because it didn't sound "woofy" and has even frequency response, sounds just like the bottom rotor is supposed to sound. When playing 'smears' on the low end of the Hammond manual for dramatic effect they don"t get bass heavy and the relative volume is the same. Some mics (such as condensers) had too much tremolo on chorale speed (even at 16" distance) but not the e609. Condenser mics can be too sensitive and will pick up too much stage volume from drums guitars and vocal monitors. Some mics (such as the SM57/58) will pick up 60hz hum from the power amp, the e609 doesn"t do this.

 

There's some sniplets of the results on the finished demo.

 

I used these mics on the Leslie at the next gig, and the soundman said they sounded much better. I also placed the Leslie so it was not close to drums and amps.

[BbAltered]

So I'm using a Motion Sound right now at church and it has the XLR outs. I was hoping that some of the newer Leslie's had XLR's but I think the answer is no. I wouldn't mind trying a Motion Sound Pro-145 but those are nowhere to be found.

 

I have a MSP-145. I can tell you the microphones inside it are horrible: they sound thin and shrill, and are omnidirectional so they pick up *everything* (pro-tip: don't set up your MSP-145 next to the drummer and expect to use the on-board mics). And unreliable: I never know when I try them now whether one or both will be non-functional.

 

It is a fine idea, badly implemented. I fantasize about buying a couple of sm57s and paying someone to mount the capsules inside the cabinet.

[bill bosco]

we used SM58s for years , that was the go to mike for our sound men , i hated them , especially for the highs , finally switched to two sennheiser e604s up top ,

amazing improvement , they use them for horns and drums so they can take a lot of sound pressure . i also use a lot of drawbars and the clarity of the highs

was the best i've heard with the e604s . of course , now we don't mike anything , all the organs i use , Hammonds or clones , are wired up to send line level to a vent and

an output for a leslie on stage . the vent goes to the house . we've been using this setup since the vent came out , i guess around 10 years or so , and the sound men

couldn't be happier .

[cphollis]

Yes, real Leslies sound awesome. Yes, they weight a ton and aren't exactly designed as touring gear. And miking them (assuming you know what you're doing) takes precious stage space. When gigs start paying more than $100 and I have more than a postage stamp to work with, perhaps I'll reconsider.

 

I played through a MS KBR-3D for a while. The amp itself sounded great. The inbuilt mikes were cheap POS, and it sounded unpleasant through the PA unless you did a ton of EQ. The amp was also heavier on top than below, which means it would try to turtle on you if two people were carrying it. Not for me.

 

I went with a Vent, then a Vent II. Sounds pretty good to my ears. When I got the Stage 3, there wasn't much of a difference so the Vent stays home these days.

[Delaware Dave]

If you truly like the MS stuff perhaps you can try out the Pro3TM. It has built in mics already although they include the shxtty Kobitone mics. I used that concept on my own Pro3T to convert it to a Pro3TM using SM57 heads mounted into the Pro 3T cabinet. I like the 180 degree positioning rather than 90 degree (that's just my preference); also in my Low Pro I put in one Mic. I positioned the mic connectors to the back of each unit so that I can run in stereo (two on top, one on the bottom) or in mono (one on top, one on the bottom). I was using drum clips mounted onto the leslie 'vents' of the MS, so it was more 'setup' time to get the clamps out for each gig, set them up, break them down, etc.. Attaching the mic cords directly to the mic connectors I installed on the back was reduced to 5 seconds. I ran with that solution prior to just going with the Vent. With a Pro3Tm there is a mic installed already (you could swap the mic out for a better sounding mic head) and there is an outlet for the low simulator on the Pro3tm that you could attach to your monitor. I also sent the mic from the Pro 3T to the monitor to give it a better horn/drum balance and one connection from the monitor to the FOH included the full leslie (mic'd horn and simulated drum when I just used the Pro3T and left the Low Pro home) plus non organ sounds all going down one output to the FOH. Worked nicely.

[mate stubb]

Lots of road leslie builds used to mount 2 or 3 SM57s (just the head) to internal shock mounts inside the cabinet. Mechanical and wind noise are problems to be overcome.

[eric]

I think it would be worthwhile to spend time getting the Vent dialed in to sound great. The issue with the Vent II is it has so many adjustable parameters to the point you can make it sound bad. Whereas the Vent or Mini Vent were a bit more plug and play with fewer things to change the sound.

[Reezekeys]

Maybe do what Tower Of Power does - split the output of your CX-3 to both a Leslie and your Vent. You and the band get to hear the Leslie. The audience hears the Vent. No mics involved and everybody is happy.

[stoken6]

Maybe do what Tower Of Power does - split the output of your CX-3 to both a Leslie and your Vent. You and the band get to hear the Leslie. The audience hears the Vent. No mics involved and everybody is happy.

I think Jim Alfredson posted some years ago about how he does the same thing.

 

Cheers, Mike