Why not leave all bass keys - even for shorter KBs?

[cassdad]

I'm majorly a piano player, normally play with 2 hands (feel awkward if I don't have both hands on the keys). Furthermore, I regularly use the bass side of the keyboard for octave bass notes as well as bass runs, and find it annoying to run out of keys. As 73 and 61 note keyboards all "steal" notes from the low end, I'm forced to cart around an 88 note KB in order to play "normally". I also note that I rarely use the top octave notes.... so if notes had to be "stolen", my preference would be to steal them ALL from the top rather than the bottom! Furthermore, just switching the octaves still results in a low "E" or "C", not the low "A" I'm used to.

 

Does anyone know why they don't make, say a 73-note KB that only "steals" from the top end (ie. has the normal "A" as the bottom note)?

[Bif_]

Transpose everything one octave. Problem solved.

[cassdad]

Transpose everything one octave. Problem solved.

 

Nope, not for me. That feels completely unnatural to me, and becomes too many low end keys, and keys that are so low they are useless, thus have stolen useable top-end keys for useless bottom keys. My question is simply: why can't they just steal from the very top keys, which in my experience, are used way less than those bass keys?

[stoken6]

You want a board that goes down to A, but up to "less than C" 7 octaves above? Yeah, rare beast. Roland RD64 was 5.25 octaves A-C. Korg M3 had a 6-octave C-C span. VAX77 was A-C 6.25 octaves.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

why can't they just steal from the very top keys, which in my experience, are used way less than those bass keys?

I think your experience is out of the norm. Especially for live players who play with bassists, which prompts the keys player to largely stay out of that range.

 

As Mike said, you might want to look for a Roland RD-64. You could octave-shift it down and the bottom note would still be an A.

[Mr. Nightime]

When I'm on a less than 88 note board, I find that I run out of keys on the top, rather than on the bottom.

 

Playing the low end can get in the way of the bass player, so I'd rather it sacrifice the low end rather than the high end.

[MathOfInsects]

To answer the question you asked, the reason is that you're describing something there is not much of a market for. The idea behind fewer-than-88-key boards is to strip off the very top and very bottom of the range, since those are the least-used notes, particularly in live-performance situations. For those players who have personal idiosyncracies toward one half of the range or another, companies allow for personalization, such as the octave-shift option Mike mentioned. It might be more practical for you to add a small controller to a small board, and let the controller be your bass notes when you need them, OG style.

 

To be honest, though, if you're playing that much bottom end I would think your bigger problem would be suitable amplification for your approach, than how you manage to solve the range issue. What are you using as an amp?

[SoWhatChord]

Look at it from the manufacturers' perspective. If someone wants a short keyboard they probably have a bassist, so they don't need the bass. But if they do need the bass, and still want a short keyboard, the logical choice is low E, because it matches the range of the four-string bass and lets them cover bass parts. But if they still really want all of the bass notes of an 88-key piano, they are probably a pianist playing classical music or solo jazz, in which case they probably want the rest of the 88 notes as well.

[stoken6]

Admittedly, I have seen many acoustic uprights that span A-A - exactly seven octaves, 85 keys. Is that the kind of thing you mean?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[bfields]

I suppose you could transpose by an interval other than an octave.... It'd come with some annoyances, but, lots of people play transposing instruments and do OK.

[Outkaster]

I don't know why people clash with the bass player in a band??? I mean you really have to do something screwed up to clash. Or doing something that rhythmically that doesn't work??

[cp-the-nerd]

No offense to the OP but you sound like you have a uniquely personal issue with 61 and 73 note keyboards if transposing doesn't suit your needs. Why not get a 37 key synth for bass lines if it's a major part of your playing style? It would really open up your playing options, too.

[AnotherScott]

Transpose everything one octave. Problem solved.

 

Nope, not for me. That feels completely unnatural to me, and becomes too many low end keys, and keys that are so low they are useless

If it is visually disconcerting/disorienting to have the unnecessary keys below the lowest A, you could cover them with something. A 76-key E-to-G board octave-shifted down with all keys below the lowest A hidden still gives you 71 usable keys in the configuration you want. Without depriving everyone who occasionally needs to cover LH bass and really needs to go to that low E! ;-)

[Meta]

I'm majorly a piano player, normally play with 2 hands (feel awkward if I don't have both hands on the keys). Furthermore, I regularly use the bass side of the keyboard for octave bass notes as well as bass runs, and find it annoying to run out of keys. As 73 and 61 note keyboards all "steal" notes from the low end, I'm forced to cart around an 88 note KB in order to play "normally". I also note that I rarely use the top octave notes.... so if notes had to be "stolen", my preference would be to steal them ALL from the top rather than the bottom! Furthermore, just switching the octaves still results in a low "E" or "C", not the low "A" I'm used to.

 

Does anyone know why they don't make, say a 73-note KB that only "steals" from the top end (ie. has the normal "A" as the bottom note)?

 

I agree! I play piano, it goes from A-C, 88 notes. I play B3 parts. B3 goes from C-C, 61 notes. Put them together, you can see the logic of having a low note of A and a high note of C. I'd go with 76 notes rather than 73 to make that happen.

 

However, just as you said, I also rarely need the highest octave. 76 notes will suffice while offering easier portability both in terms of weight and length. In those rare cases where I need the top octave I'll program a foot switch to jump up temporarily so I don't have to take my hands off the keys (thus, my ideal keyboard needs suitable foot switch capability as well). I also play synth and sampled parts which are quite happy to live within a 76 note A-C range. So to me, there's no downside to that range, and plenty of upside.

 

That's it, it's really not so hard to understand.

 

A few controllers have been made with that range including a nifty foldable one, but AFAIK there's nothing on the market right now that fits my needs exactly. So I use 61 note C-C (with more octave shifting than I'd like) and 76 note E-G keyboards (with fewer octave shifts but still more than necessary since the bottom five keys are largely wasted) using a foot switch to make octave jumps as needed. In both cases, the octave jump is needed a lot more often than if I had 76 notes A-C, adding extra complexity to the performance that I would be happy to further minimize.

 

To be clear, I don't want to lug around an 88 note keyboard - too long and heavy for my needs. That's not a solution for me. I am fine with footswitched transposing to reach the highest octave in order to save weight and length, but would rather not have to octave jump as often as I need to with my current keyboards which, to me, have more compromised range choices.

 

To those who claim there's no market for a straight forward and imminently logical A-C keyboard as described by those of us who WANT ONE, that's just your personal opinion/preference which you are welcome to hold. You can already buy what you want - with keyboard ranges oddly compromised apparently by deference to bass players in certain band situations, as if those keyboards must only be used in that way. Be happy you can live with that, but know that some of us are waiting for keyboards that better serve our perhaps more varied (and I would argue, logical) needs. Thank you very much.

 

AFAIK, pianos and organs represent a large percentage of keyboards that have been sold, so deriving a logical keyboard range from them doesn't seem like a marketing mistake.

 

My other preference include foregoing attempts at replicating a hammer action. That also saves weight for transport. I understand that some people absolutely require carrying faux hammer actions around to replicate an habitual piano feel, but for what I do I can easily enjoy playing piano parts on my PC361 (for example) without hammers, and it's much, MUCH better for organs and synths and sampled instruments to not have to sling faux acoustic piano key weight around (especially when I'm doing a typical single keyboard gig). I understand that that's just my opinion, a mere opinion of someone in the market to buy keyboards. Just stating my personal preferences.

 

While on the subject of the perfect (for me) keyboard: to keep the length down put the mod and pitch bend wheels above the keys (different people disagree about wheel placement but that's what I prefer, YMMV). And yes, wheels, not sticks. Lastly, lots of MIDI map-able controls, with 9 sliders on the left for B3 control.

 

Last comment: even six octaves C-C is an improvement range-wise, and there have been a few keyboards around like that (Korg has had some) but I'd prefer to reach the low A as on piano.

[Meta]

And one more thing: Aftertouch. Polyphonic option would be nice.

[Stokely]

why can't they just steal from the very top keys, which in my experience, are used way less than those bass keys?

I think your experience is out of the norm. Especially for live players who play with bassists, which prompts the keys player to largely stay out of that range.

 

As Mike said, you might want to look for a Roland RD-64. You could octave-shift it down and the bottom note would still be an A.

 

I don't need to be prompted, no desire to ever play bass and getting to play with a really excellent bassist--sadly a rarity at my amateur level--is a joy

 

I have filled in when a bass string broke or when the bassist was messing with something in our mix (we run our own sound).

 

I was really excited by the idea of the RD-64 but hated the key feel. For 73, my buddy loves his SV2, and Yamaha has at least one 73 (or 76) note keyboards. I'd welcome that size for live playing even though I don't play bass.

[cassdad]

To answer the question you asked, the reason is that you're describing something there is not much of a market for. The idea behind fewer-than-88-key boards is to strip off the very top and very bottom of the range, since those are the least-used notes, particularly in live-performance situations. For those players who have personal idiosyncracies toward one half of the range or another, companies allow for personalization, such as the octave-shift option Mike mentioned. It might be more practical for you to add a small controller to a small board, and let the controller be your bass notes when you need them, OG style.

 

To be honest, though, if you're playing that much bottom end I would think your bigger problem would be suitable amplification for your approach, than how you manage to solve the range issue. What are you using as an amp?

 

I'm using 2 Yamaha DXR-10 amp/speakers, and they do the job extremely well, to my surprise. I also try to stay out of the bass player's lane by 1) not playing loudly with the left hand, and 2) EQ'ing with less bass. YMMV.

[cassdad]

in response to the Roland RD-64 suggestions, I just looked it up. Seems it's an older instrument, no longer can buy new. But, yes, that would almost be my ideal (although I would prefer one more octave at the top, thus making it a 76). (Yeah, I know, I want it all.) However, regarding that specific model (RD-64), I just can't believe they blew it so badly with the layout = putting switches and control wheels to the left! If both were above the keys (not to the side), it would be nearly perfect, IMHO. Putting all those controls sticking out on the left, IMO, defeats the purpose of a shorter keyboard!

[nursers]

Of course if you wanted a BIG challenge, just transpose the whole board so that whatever the bottom key is, is the low A you're after

[MathOfInsects]

I'm using 2 Yamaha DXR-10 amp/speakers, and they do the job extremely well, to my surprise. I also try to stay out of the bass player's lane by 1) not playing loudly with the left hand, and 2) EQ'ing with less bass. YMMV.

I might have missed it in your original post, but I didn't realize you were playing with a bass player. I thought this was for a solo context, particularly because you mentioned playing basslines and parts.

 

It seems odd to me to insist on retaining every low note that occurs on a grand piano, but then to EQ yourself so that when you play them, they won't be heard well. If you don't my asking, if your goal is to stay out of the bass player's way, why play all those bass parts and lines in the first place? Perhaps a good challenge might be to go the other way and force yourself out of that last octave or two, in favor of some higher parts in less crowded frequencies?

[niacin]

I'm majorly a piano player, normally play with 2 hands (feel awkward if I don't have both hands on the keys). Furthermore, I regularly use the bass side of the keyboard for octave bass notes as well as bass runs, and find it annoying to run out of keys. As 73 and 61 note keyboards all "steal" notes from the low end, I'm forced to cart around an 88 note KB in order to play "normally". I also note that I rarely use the top octave notes.... so if notes had to be "stolen", my preference would be to steal them ALL from the top rather than the bottom! Furthermore, just switching the octaves still results in a low "E" or "C", not the low "A" I'm used to.

 

This: https://dexibell.com/prodotto/vivo-s1/?lang=en/

 

[video:youtube]

[Tom Williams]

Another (no doubt gonna be ridiculed) vote for 76 notes A-C. I almost never use the top octave, and would be happy to transpose to 4' when I do. Uh-oh, I just used a pipe organ term and further muddied the discussion....

[Tom Williams]

It seems odd to me to insist on retaining every low note that occurs on a grand piano, but then to EQ yourself so that when you play them, they won't be heard well.

Those aren't the same thing. You can EQ so that the timbre of the low note comes through, while still suppressing the fundamental to leave room for the bassist. There is no other sound quite like the bottom of a good piano, even with a 12 dB / octave rolloff at 200 Hz.

[Groove On]

The VIVO S61 suffers from the same dingbat "side-panel" design. Keyboard designers who do this should be slapped silly with a halibut. The whole point of using less keys is to make the keyboard shorter; the side-panel just adds it all back again. As much as I like the S61, why wouldn't I just go with 73-keys ... it's the same length! Betcha that guy riding the bike is thinking the exact same thing.

 

This: https://dexibell.com/prodotto/vivo-s1/?lang=en/

[video:youtube]

[stillearning]

It seems odd to me to insist on retaining every low note that occurs on a grand piano, but then to EQ yourself so that when you play them, they won't be heard well.

Those aren't the same thing. You can EQ so that the timbre of the low note comes through, while still suppressing the fundamental to leave room for the bassist. There is no other sound quite like the bottom of a good piano, even with a 12 dB / octave rolloff at 200 Hz.

I think it still may interfere with the bass player"s part to the listener. Even if you roll off the bottom end, doesn"t the brain 'hear" the fundamental based on the harmonic series? To my thinking, it"s best to stay away away from the bottom couple octaves on an 88, unless the situation specifically calls for it. I use an 88 because I"m visually used to seeing it that way in front of me, and more room for splits.

[niacin]

The VIVO S61 suffers from the same dingbat "side-panel" design. Keyboard designers who do this should be slapped silly with a halibut. The whole point of using less keys is to make the keyboard shorter; the side-panel just adds it all back again. As much as I like the S61, why wouldn't I just go with 73-keys ... it's the same length! Betcha that guy riding the bike is thinking the exact same thing.

 

Their choice to put the controls on the end, as much as it may irk you, is no doubt a result of the same reasoning that underpinned the Roland RD64: you want to put another keyboard on top and still be able to access the controls. In Roland's case they had pics of a VR-09 over the RD64 and it made perfect sense. Not of course for your purposes. And hey, who am I to stand in the way of a good fish slapping.

 

[video:youtube]

[S_Gould]

I'm with the OP regarding awkwardness if I can't use my left hand the way I'm used to. It tends to throw my rhythm off, and if the bass player throws a fit, I'll hi-pass at 200hz. (I don't have to hear it, just feel it)

[MathOfInsects]

Those aren't the same thing. You can EQ so that the timbre of the low note comes through, while still suppressing the fundamental to leave room for the bassist. There is no other sound quite like the bottom of a good piano, even with a 12 dB / octave rolloff at 200 Hz.

I'm not sure I would agree that stripping away the fundamental lets your last sentence really remain true, but that's a different discussion for a different thread. I was responding more to the entirety of the poster's statement that he tries to stay out of the bass player's lane by playing the bass notes very quietly, or else EQing them out. Plus, he didn't mention a good piano, just ANY keyboard that had that configuration. That leaves me curious why someone would want to insist on retaining notes or range--or even parts, since he mentions playing lines down there--that they would then basically endeavor to sabotage in the mix.

 

"This is just how I play, band be damned," is one thing, and "I keep trying to come up with ways to stay out of the bass player's way" is another. But I'm not sure I understand, from a practical standpoint, why they would both coexist. Maybe an example of context would help...?

[ProfD]

As someone who plays LH bass, the lowest note on the KB I'm playing has never been an issue for me.

 

I'll transpose the KB an octave or do whatever it takes to get into my Willie Weeks zone.

 

Otherwise, playing too far down low with a bassist in tow is no good in my 'hood.

 

As KB players, we seemingly have an unlimited # of KB choices and yet, someone still gets left out. I hate when that happens.

[Marzzz]

You want a board that goes down to A, but up to "less than C" 7 octaves above? VAX77 was A-C 6.25 octaves.

VAX77 goes from A0 up to C7 (low A to one octave below high C); you can have the "hot key" play D7, or you can set up a pedal that will momentarily switch the octaves up to get to high C when needed. Works well with a little practice to get that top octave, and kinda fun when playing repeating figures elsewhere.