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ribbon/usb controller?


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Last couple of days I've been remembering how much I used to love the ribbon on my old Korg Triton. I especially liked how it had a center point and you could scoop up from below the center in ways that added interesting expression. My Triton is in Florida and I'm in Covid seclusion in Nashville, so I'm wondering if anyone makes a ribbon to USB sort of device I might use with soft synths. Google brought up a lot of confusion, with many "out of production" pages and super long things, but nothing looked right to me. Any ideas?
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May or may not be what you're looking for, but the Touché is getting some attention recently. Ed A from here just picked one up, Neon Vines also talked about it in her studio tour.

Wow, I love that. It's kind of like the Hotspot, but more specifically keyboard-centric. $400....hmmmm.....

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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I looked for myself and believe it doesn´t exist !

 

Any (used) Kurzweil PC2, PC3, PC3K w/ the Kurzweil PC2RIB "Super Ribbon Controller" connected does it well over MIDI and USB.

 

I use PC361 w/ ribbon controller and like the zone-configurations for 1 or 3 independent zones as well as the MIDI CC assignment for each zone.

 

A.C.

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Sorry for the quick aside but this thread reminded me of the Kurz Expression Mate, a unit I bought sometime in the 1990s with the intention to incorporate into my synth arsenal. It never happened, and wound up a victim of a house fire several years ago. I used it's breath control input a few times- maybe two gigs total. It had deep programmability (a hallmark of Kurzweil products from what I've gathered) and in the right hands I'm sure it would be a powerful addition to a synth rig. The music I was making simply didn't demand the many features it offered. One of my few "GAS" attacks, and probably the one that cured me from any others since then!

 

Most likely total overkill for Steve, but I thought I'd call attention to this piece in case anyone sees it on the used market. Other than using only 5-pin midi, I would bet this guy can hang with the most modern of alternate controllers out there.

 

xpressionmate.jpg

 

[EDIT - Right, Mike? Great minds think alike! :) ]

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The ExpressionMate is a completely over engineered piece of gear but the ribbon controller is brilliant. It also has BC input and several pedal inputs

-Mike Martin

 

Casio

Mike Martin Photography Instagram Facebook

The Big Picture Photography Forum on Music Player Network

 

The opinions I post here are my own and do not represent the company I work for.

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"Over engineered"... I would agree. I remember being somewhat confused reading its manual. You could easily use just the brain without the ribbon and do a ton of stuff. Just having a BC input may have been worth the price since not many keyboards had them. That's what I used it for the one or two times I brought it to a gig.
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Kurzweil Expression Mate still a very desirable controller with a wide and precise pitch range. Different from small ribbons.

 

Just a note about the Touche, which I love and use frequently. It's probably best thought of as a subtle pressure sensor rather than a large ribbon substitute. I use it to control dynamics and expression, but would not use it for specific pitch intervals or large pitch sweeps. As a controller it will replace footpedals, pitch wheels, small ribbons and breath controllers more readily than large pitch ribbons. The front and back pressure "areas" are very sensitive and best in class. The side to side movement is not that different from a good joystick or spring centered wheel and is icing on the cake. It does bounce back to center in a cute way and saves you from moving your hand to a pitch wheel, should you need to bend pitch. But the heart of Touche is the two very sensitive pressure areas (under a smooth wooden skin, so you can slide your fingers) and the variety of gestures (tapping, pressing, crossfading etc.) that go with it.

 

I should think an Expression Mate and a Touche together would easily get you into Cello territory, especially if you are using the Expression Mate like your fingerboard/neck to select pitch and the two pressure areas in the Touche for bow pressure and bow speed.

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Find a used Kurzweil Expressionmate.

 

 

No USB unfortunately.

Exactly THAT is what the OP wanted.

 

Otherewise a great masterkeyboard controller w/ 3 independent zones.

When I´d find one in good working condition in my area, I´d buy one when cheap enough.

It´s old,- and age is the enemy of not only digital electronics.

 

A.C.

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Darn it, it still irks me that UPS crunched the used pc361 I got from Guitar Center. Supposedly mint, and it came with a ribbon controller. GC gave me a refund of course, and I bought another one (that didn't have the controller). While that keyboard did hundreds of gigs and now is my main midi controller at home, it also has a screen problem and a couple other minor issues....

 

GC told me always buy a flight case with the gear, and then return it no problem locally after it arrived. I just stared, saying "I don't want to buy something new that I don't want to keep and immediately return it?!" but their response was that it saves them money when stuff doesn't get destroyed. That keyboard was packed in two boxes with heavy foam between, something major happened to actually crack it into pieces....

..

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Just a note about the Touche, which I love and use frequently. It's probably best thought of as a subtle pressure sensor rather than a large ribbon substitute. I use it to control dynamics and expression, but would not use it for specific pitch intervals or large pitch sweeps. As a controller it will replace footpedals, pitch wheels, small ribbons and breath controllers more readily than large pitch ribbons. The front and back pressure "areas" are very sensitive and best in class. The side to side movement is not that different from a good joystick or spring centered wheel and is icing on the cake. It does bounce back to center in a cute way and saves you from moving your hand to a pitch wheel, should you need to bend pitch. But the heart of Touche is the two very sensitive pressure areas (under a smooth wooden skin, so you can slide your fingers) and the variety of gestures (tapping, pressing, crossfading etc.) that go with it.

 

Yeah, without having ever used one myself, I figured the smaller surface area and other control axes might make it a slightly different tool than what Steve is looking for. He'll have to check his mileage!

 

May or may not be what you're looking for, but the Touché is getting some attention recently. Ed A from here just picked one up, Neon Vines also talked about it in her studio tour.

Wow, I love that. It's kind of like the Hotspot, but more specifically keyboard-centric. $400....hmmmm.....

 

There's also the SE version that's even cheaper. ;)

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There's also the SE version that's even cheaper. ;)

I cast you out, demon from hell.

Actually, the SE stands for Software Edition, because it is only USB-connectible to soft-synths and the like, no hardware. I remain safe from your cursed temptations for the time being.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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Actually, the SE stands for Software Edition, because it is only USB-connectible to soft-synths and the like, no hardware. I remain safe from your cursed temptations for the time being.

 

Mine is a Touche SE ha ha. :evil:

 

I didn't see a need for CV and the company was a bit untested at the time. By default, Touche SE sends CC's 16-19 when connected to USB. In my rig, Mainstage changes and routes those CCs as necessary, so that the appropriate CC goes to MIDI hardware on a per patch basis. There is some acceptable lag when compared to VI's which are running on the Macbook Pro. Most of the time, Touche is controlling the VIs and not hardware. In my setup, those are the subtle instruments for which it makes a huge difference.

 

For most cover or pop gigs, Touche is way overkill. It makes a perceptible difference when blending sustaining sounds with acoustic instruments. It's also really useful if you are using cinematic or orchestral instruments in productions and you want your lines to sing.

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This thread reminded me of a project I had on the back-burner. I wanted to convert this ribbon to work like a standard cv expression pedal substituting the RJ45 phone plug for a 1/4' TRS plug.

 

 

PC2Rib.jpg

 

Unfortunately some measuring revealed that it"s actually 3 independent touch sensitive resistors/potentiometers, 1 per zone. Each is 5 kOhms. Kurzweil uses some clever logic handled by the processor to combine these 3 zones into a single long zone if desired.

 

There"s no easy way I can think of to do this in hardware. Changing the connections between zones would require cutting into the strip which I think would destroy the thing. I could use each zone for a different synth but as someone indicated on Theo"s 'abandonment' thread, some things just ain"t worth pursuing.

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While not completely on point you could get a lot of ribbon like behaviour out of one of these < https://www.keithmcmillen.com/products/quneo/> The biggest ribbon on there would be comparable or bigger in length than the oft referred to Kong Triton and the software programming possibilities are wonderful...

 

Kind regards

Paul Najar

Jaminajar music production

www.jaminajar.com

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Steve - would a "ribbon" on an iPhone work? I'm pretty sure there are a few I-apps that present these kinds of "controllers" on a phone or tablet screen. I've used TouchOSC in the past, you get sliders, buttons, x/y pads, etc. The issue with a ribbon for doing pitch bend is that you want it to "return to center" when you lift your finger off the surface - so that might be a problem. A quick search showed someone pulling it off with Osculator and TouchOSC, but understanding how to make it all work looks like it would take a degree in nuclear physics. Maybe one of these other i-apps has this covered in a simpler way. I'm curious myself so I might take a look.
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I have used the Expressionmate on gigs as part of my rig since 2002. It is still functioning (although with some minor problems) after going through 100's of gigs. One disadvantage is it adds to the setup time and I have not been able to streamline the process of connecting midi, power supply and breath control. I have often considered purchasing a kurzweil for the convenience of simply plugging in the ribbon. Although I have a spare , I do keep a look out for used ones. They are getting really rare and expensive. Since I use it all of the time I have pretty much learned how to program it. The manual is confusing but the charts of the various functions eventually give one an idea of how to tame it.

One advantage of the ribbon is that it can sit just above my keys and I do not have to reach to the left to grab the wheels. So its less awkward. Another advantage is I can play basslines in my left hand and pitch bend with my right.

To Jerry's point(hi Jerry!) of using the ribbon as a fingerboard.... I find it hard to use it that way because you have to be extremely accurate in your finger placement to play in tune and there is no way to make the ribbon respond to pitch just being "close enough". But with practice one could get more accuracy. The ribbon is somewhat delicate, it's not hard to break the connection inside the membrane. This happened to me and when I took it to an authorized kurzweil repair person he was not able to repair it. I have been extra careful since then to protect the surface.

As Reesekeys pointed out , the brain is very useful even without the ribbon attached. There are switches and pedal inputs that can do many of the functions of the ribbon. I have an expression pedal set up to do a number of jobs. For example plugging in my Roland dp 8 could act as a sustain pedal, a volume pedal, patch changer, a bend or vibrato pedal.

To Markyboard's comment, I found a website where it was used in a modular rig and there is some details of how the RJ45 phone plug was manipulated.Here is the link:https://modularsynthesis.com/modules/DJB-011/djb011.htm

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  • 3 weeks later...
This thread reminded me of a project I had on the back-burner. I wanted to convert this ribbon to work like a standard cv expression pedal substituting the RJ45 phone plug for a 1/4' TRS plug.

 

 

PC2Rib.jpg

 

Unfortunately some measuring revealed that it"s actually 3 independent touch sensitive resistors/potentiometers, 1 per zone. Each is 5 kOhms. Kurzweil uses some clever logic handled by the processor to combine these 3 zones into a single long zone if desired.

 

There"s no easy way I can think of to do this in hardware. Changing the connections between zones would require cutting into the strip which I think would destroy the thing. I could use each zone for a different synth but as someone indicated on Theo"s 'abandonment' thread, some things just ain"t worth pursuing.

 

While I was extremely busy doing nothing last Friday I was actually contemplating another Seinfeld inspired thread. This idea turned out to be pretty damn cool and a ton of fun if I do say so myself.

 

[video:youtube]

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While I was extremely busy doing nothing last Friday I was actually contemplating another Seinfeld inspired thread. This idea turned out to be pretty damn cool and a ton of fun if I do say so myself.

 

I love the KURZ ribbon controller,- 3 "zones",- almost every MIDI CC and Kurz´s proprietary controller (-combos) assignable per "zone" including different user settings for each "zone".

 

What´s the box, combining 2 of the ribbon controllers ?

How does it work ?

 

 

:)

 

A.C.

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What´s the box, combining 2 3 of the ribbon controllers ?

How does it work ?

13721.jpg

 

13722.jpg

It's this box- about as simple as it gets. The ribbon uses a RJ-12 connector which is what old land-line telephones (remember those?) use - at least here in the US. I believe this box was intended for switching telephone lines.

 

The knob select 1 of 4 inputs that appears at the output. Each of my 3 ribbons are connected to an input and the output goes to the Kurz. I first tried some simple 2 to 1 "T" connectors that short each of the 6 lines of 2 ribbons together. It works but with long cable lengths funny things start to happen. Even with this switching box there is a slight glitch crossing between the upper 2 zones on the longer cable runs. Not surprising and not a big deal at this point. I think its more a capacitance issue than resistance.

 

This box is in serious need of a paint job. :sick:

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To Jerry's point(hi Jerry!) of using the ribbon as a fingerboard.... I find it hard to use it that way because you have to be extremely accurate in your finger placement to play in tune and there is no way to make the ribbon respond to pitch just being "close enough". But with practice one could get more accuracy.

 

Well, if anyone was going to develop an expressive musical use for it ... it would be someone like you. If Kurzweil made a USB version of the ribbon in this age of laptops, perhaps they would find renewed interest, just as Hornberg and TEC Control have been doing with breath controllers. It would be a niche, but dependable profit pool.

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