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Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
I always found the name odd...

I think it was intended to be self-deprecating, like calling yourself a "gear junkie," or considering beautifully lit, close-up photos of gear "gear p*rn." As such, it seems pretty harmless, and pretty much asexual.

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...because only men can be "gearslutz"?
...because "slut" as an adjective isn't valid?
...because sluts are an unappreciated, oppressed and misunderstood demographic?


WTF.

I hate that this know-nothing faction of the left forces me into agreeing with Jordan Peterson, and risks my "commie lefty card" in turn. Reality is, you can't have victimless humor, and the use of a pejorative ironically has to have a subject.

I am SO SICK of the median i.q. wanting to ignore context - because they're incapable of perceiving it - as an excuse to support a position. They're insisting something is ad hominem based on syntactical agreement; "common denominator social media jousting strategy".

I hate the 21st century.


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As with many sociopolitical or philosophical discussions here at MPN, this one is coloured by the demographics of these fora, which lack diversity. Just, ya know, throwing it out there that most posters here (myself included) are not the concerned slice of humanity, and therefore, should maybe just take a seat and listen for a bit.

P.S. Hopefully we can all recognize that words can have different meanings in different contexts? And that some connotations can be too strong to overcome in a public setting? And that oppressed peoples can also reclaim slurs to use as self-identifiers, but that doesn't give dominant groups the right to start using them without consequence? Maybe? Can we?


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Well, the primary definition of slut is "a promiscuous person." So it sure seems to me the implication is that the self-proclaimed "sluts" are promiscuous when it comes to gear. I have heard men referred to as "sluts" by other men, although come to think of it, not in the last 10 years.

And language does change over time. These days, if someone says my music is "sick," it means they like it. Yes, it's entirely realistic to think the term "slut" is applied more often to women than men. But for a bunch of people in a male-dominated industry to liken themselves to what's popularly considered to be promiscuous women...well, what to make of that?

One of my teachers in Switzerland referred to me as a "cripple" because I wrote with my left hand. I didn't care, he could call me whatever he wanted...it didn't change who I was.

Now, if the people asking for a name change are women who consider themselves sluts, and are embarrassed to be associated with argumentative (mostly) dudes on a forum, then I'd say they're totally justified in wanting a name change. smile

Having said that, though, I did sign the petition. Regardless of whether or not the intent was to offend or exclude, if people see it as such, it does not do the pro audio community any favors.

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And I'll also say one mistake people make is assuming everyone in a specific, identifiable group thinks the same way. Over the years I've worked with a lot of women who are musicians, engineers, or coders, so I tend to put a lot of weight on their opinions regarding sexism and such. They don't all think the same. I've known quite a few women who very much dislike the well-intentioned "Women in Rock" groups and panels. For them, it's uncomfortably close to..."she's a good guitarist...for a girl." They'd rather be identified with their avocation or vocation, not their sex, and feel that it ghettoizes women within the industry. Other women find it empowering, because they feel they're not lone voices in a male-dominated wilderness.

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And finally...

Maybe the primary reason why there aren't that many women involved in audio is because they don't want to be. Let's face it, the music industry is not exactly a bright and shiny career path these days, nor is it doing particularly exciting things, or capturing the public imagination the way it once did. If you're young, female, artistic, and technically inclined, you might find the idea of doing animation, concept art, smartphone apps, or game design much more appealing. I was talking to a friend who works in the movie end of computer graphics, and at least in her work, most of the people there are now women.

Maybe compared to men, the reason for the paucity of women in audio is because they're smarter smile

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
I always found the name odd...

I think it was intended to be self-deprecating, like calling yourself a "gear junkie," or considering beautifully lit, close-up photos of gear "gear p*rn." As such, it seems pretty harmless, and pretty much asexual.


Yea, pretty much this. They pointed the finger inward with the name and have some fun with it. It is by no means intentionally derogatory or misogynistic.

People need to get over it. One tiny corner of the internet and someone's got their shorts in a knot. Please


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
...because only men can be "gearslutz"?
...because "slut" as an adjective isn't valid?
...because sluts are an unappreciated, oppressed and misunderstood demographic?


WTF.

I hate that this know-nothing faction of the left forces me into agreeing with Jordan Peterson, and risks my "commie lefty card" in turn. Reality is, you can't have victimless humor, and the use of a pejorative ironically has to have a subject.

I am SO SICK of the median i.q. wanting to ignore context - because they're incapable of perceiving it - as an excuse to support a position. They're insisting something is ad hominem based on syntactical agreement; "common denominator social media jousting strategy".

I hate the 21st century.

I don't really object to the name to be honest. And I don't object to people being obnoxious either but it doesn't seem to play well on the interwebz.
We used to "cap" or "do the nines" all the time in Fresno but that was in person among friends and more a battle of "wits" than how it appears on a forum.
Body language changes context, sometimes radically.

I got up here and was adopted by an Elder of the Lummi Nation who loves my guitar playing. We were at a family event and per tradition the Elders all sat together, having a beer, ripping each other a new one and laughing.
It was funny. Since we were not familiar with each other, they let me be and I did the same. My brother Dean has since learned that he can say anything he wants to me but he better be ready for a verbal blast in return. We both just laugh, it isn't belligerence.

I see threads on Gearslutz go wrong and I can't tell if somebody is trying to be funny or are just an insufferable asshole.
So I prefer MPN where we mostly remain polite and civil to each other. It decreases the risk of false hostility through mis-interpreting caused by an essential lack of information. That's probably the worst thing about these times, our shift to an anti-social platform for social discourse. I don't kid about in the same way because it isn't taken the same way.

So, with the exception of an occasional thread that contains valuable information, I kinda think Gearslutz sucks ass.


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I think Gearslutz as a name is incredibly tone deaf if not also incredibly misogynistic, but then so is the industry.

I also think Muffwiggler is problematic, and there have been similar calls to change that name and many internal discussions over the years. The founder of Muffwiggler died a few years ago, and I think that had paused the discussion.

So as you can surmise, I’m pretty sensitive to these perceptions due to being raised by many women and raising two strong young ladies myself. They feel excluded in the rock music scene around here even though they’ve both been first chair drummers because they prefer to not hear rape and gay jokes/insults, which is basically the only thing coming out of the mouths of the Call of Duty generation in my area. So little things like site names do count for some people.

But...

I think a petition to change these names is stupid. They are not public entities. These are either money making or self-sustaining private entities. If this is the brand perception they want to transmit, that is their right and I’d even encourage it. It makes it easier to make determinations about the group of people who have no problem with it, not because I want to shame or judge anyone, but because it’s important to know what people’s priorities and triggers are. If you have no issue with it, and your family or social circle has no problem bandying about words like that, well, who is anyone else to judge. But if you won’t use words like slut casually in mixed company, you may want to consider that the people you are uncomfortable using those words around are the same kind of people that might want to ask about gear and get your advice.


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Originally Posted by zeronyne
If this is the brand perception they want to transmit, that is their right and I’d even encourage it.

I doubt they thought it through that far. I'd probably file it under "seemed like a funny idea at the time."

It blows my mind that anyone would have a problem with female drummers just because they're female. Do you think those kinds of people are in the majority, or the last gasp of a bygone era?

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Originally Posted by Anderton
It blows my mind that anyone would have a problem with female drummers just because they're female.

Prince agreed with you



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If they wan't to call themselves slutz, why on earth not?
It's not as if they're pointing a finger at anybody else.

SO much fuss and bother over nine little letters!
Good grief, who CARES!

Time to get a life.

I'm more concerned about what may happen tomorrow in a country I don't even live in, and constantly thank goodness I don't live there.

Good luck sane American people on inauguration day.


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So the take that is gaining traction here is - correct me if I mistate - is that, if you use a slur sort of term in the context of self-deprecation, then it's ok.

Really? Think that one through.

So say I get this new job, a construction job - a really hard, sweaty, dirty sort of construction. But hey, I'm just an assistant to the bosses in the trailer, so all day long while 48 out of 50 employees are toiling and sweating and stinking under hard outdoor conditions, I'm in the air conditioning, not a bead of sweat or a speck of mud. So at the bar after work, I tell my buddies, laughing, that, yeah man, I'm totally the house N***** in this new job.

Self-deprecating humor of this sort work only because the slur is a real slur, but you are only pretending it applies to you because it looks funny when you do so.

Like, say, you stub your toe and hobble a bit, so you play it up as a "funny cripple".

And your defense is that your humor is self-deprecating?

nat

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Originally Posted by MAJUSCULE
Just, ya know, throwing it out there that most posters here (myself included) are not the concerned slice of humanity, and therefore, should maybe just take a seat and listen for a bit.

...And on that note:

Women Only - Does the "Gearslutz" name bother you?

Best,

Geoff


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Originally Posted by Nowarezman
So the take that is gaining traction here is - correct me if I mistate - is that, if you use a slur sort of term in the context of self-deprecation, then it's ok.

Depends on the context. Black people can use the n-word with each other, but it's nothing any white person should ever use, because its history is 100% white people using it in an insulting, derogatory way. Black people using it dilutes the derogatory part. (Although I have to admit that growing up in the 50s, when there were separate water fountains for black and white people, hearing it still makes me cringe regardless of the source.)

An even better example is "queer." When I was growing up, it was always used as an insulting, derogatory term. Then gay people took ownership of it, threw it back in the face of the haters, and used in a humorous context ("Queer Eye for the Straight Guy") as well as a political one ("We're here, we're queer, get used to it"). They completely demolished it as an insult because they simply said "we don't recognize it as such, so you can't hurt us by using it."

If a woman's audio group called themselves "GearSlutz," would anyone object to that? I'd put it in the same category as the previous two examples. Another question is whether women consider the word slut positive or negative. If they consider it negative, well, regarding GearSlutz, if the shoe fits... smile

Sometimes at seminars I use my "old clueless guy" imitation, the "get off my lawn" mode, to get a point across and add some humor. Am I insulting old clueless guys? I guess I am. Well, it always gets a laugh...they'll just have to deal with it.

If the majority of women find the name problematic, then change the name. I'm not a woman, I don't have a dog in this fight. They can call it GearBlurf for all I care.

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So at the bar after work, I tell my buddies, laughing, that, yeah man, I'm totally the house N***** in this new job.

I don't even know what this means. I've never heard it used before. Perhaps it's unique to your side of the pond?

I'm afraid you'll have to explain what the word you shun to use is.

And none of what you do explain is self-deprecating.

It seems the first is a kind of boast, the second an attempt at humour.


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Good points, Craig.

My post assumed that the issue we're on about is when one group borrows a slur typically applied to another group and tries it on for comic effect - because the slur doesn't really apply to the comic, it's a funny hat that doesn't fit and looks ridiculous.

If it's a family joke - yes, that's different. But to be a family joke, the slur needs to be acceptable by consensus within the family as applied between family members. Even then, some family members may not like it as it comes too close to home, too reminiscent of bad experiences not to be made fun of. But the family can sort that out.

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Originally Posted by JohnG11
Quote
So at the bar after work, I tell my buddies, laughing, that, yeah man, I'm totally the house N***** in this new job.

I don't even know what this means. I've never heard it used before. Perhaps it's unique to your side of the pond?

I'm afraid you'll have to explain what the word you shun to use is.

And none of what you do explain is self-deprecating.

It seems the first is a kind of boast, the second an attempt at humour.


Watch Tarantino's Django Unchained. The Samuel Jackson character is a "house N***". A slave who worked as a servant in the big plantation house, and typically was resented by the field workers, etc. Cushy job, and Jackson's portrayal is fantastic.

And as to your comment that none of my examples involved self-deprecation - I can only simply disagree and refer you to the common definition in dictionaries, etc.

How do you define self-deprecation?

nat

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Originally Posted by Anderton
<...snip...>
It blows my mind that anyone would have a problem with female drummers just because they're female. Do you think those kinds of people are in the majority, or the last gasp of a bygone era?

I hope it's the last gasp of a bygone era. Remember, musicians were the first to openly defy the rule not to hire black musicians in a swing band. We generally care about how well you play and how well you play with others, not what gender or sexual persuasion you are.

I hired a female drummer in the early 1980s. Why? We lost our drummer, we held auditions, and she was the best choice. She had a small kit, she held a very steady beat, she used tasty fills to support the song and not dominate it, she was cooperative, she contributed to the music with good suggestions, and bonus; she even sang backup. Her gender had nothing to do with it.

The audience didn't seem to care either.

Back on topic.

A business has the right to call itself whatever it wants to. However, a name can limit an audience. It can also focus on a specific audience.

If you name your business something with universal appeal or at least universal non-rejection, anybody interested can shop at your business. Amazon is a good example of that.

If you want to appeal to a specific audience a name targeted to that audience is appropriate. Metallica is a good example of that.

If you want to reject a certain audience, choose a polarized name that the group you want to reject hates.

In the years I worked with Motown, and that was during the civil rights and the Detroit riot era, Berry Gordy never let on how he felt about it, and nobody at Motown was allowed to voice their opinion either. Later Marvin Gaye broke that mold threatening to leave Motown over songs like "What's Going On", "Mercy Mercy Me" and the others on that LP.

Personally, I don't make shopping decisions on names like GearSlutz. Others will. I have some friends who will not shop at a store that displayed a Trump/Pence sign. To me, displaying either that sign or a Biden/Harris sign at your place of business is a sure way to lose customers and income in this particular era.

In this era of Political Correctness I sometimes don't know what to call certain groups if I want to refer to them. Are you LGBTQ, Gay or Queer? Are you Black, African-American, or a Person Of Color? I could go on but you get the idea. However, I refer to people, I mean no malice and I neither want to offend anyone or make them uncomfortable.

I think we all need more tolerance, more sense of community, less division and less animosity towards 'the others'.

Insights and incites by Notes


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
In this era of Political Correctness I sometimes don't know what to call certain groups if I want to refer to them.

I've solved that issue! I refer to them as "humanoid bipeds."

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Originally Posted by Anderton
It blows my mind that anyone would have a problem with female drummers just because they're female. Do you think those kinds of people are in the majority, or the last gasp of a bygone era?

That sentiment, at least in my experience and my kids’ experiences, is slowly but surely growing. Or, more accurately, I would say people have been more emboldened to exhibit their biases. My high school band director had a real problem with my older daughter being the marching band percussion section lead and made no bones about telling her so. He told her that girls shouldn’t play snare because the weight of the rig may damage their uterus. When confronted, he hung on the word “May” to indicate that he wasn’t forbidding her. My younger daughter who is only a sophomore in high school is now the snare section lead and ironically, there are no male snare drummers at the high school presently.

I just asked my daughters about their experiences when I started typing this, and they both agreed that almost as bad as being excluded from rock bands because of insecure male egos is when they are asked to be in a band specifically because they are girls. I think what they were trying to articulate is that it’s male dominated to the point where their gender will NEVER not be a point of discussion or controversy.

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I just discovered that the decision has been made to change the name. More about that here:

Jules from Gearslutz.com statement on petition to change GS name

Best,

Geoff


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Originally Posted by zeronyne
I think what they were trying to articulate is that it’s male dominated to the point where their gender will NEVER not be a point of discussion or controversy.

Well if I ever get to play live again, and they're good, I'll be sending you a PM smile

It's hard to wrap my head around prejudice. It's just so illogical. I just figured the prejudice against women musicians was going the way of hand-held calculators and Atari 1040s. I'm disappointed to hear that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Grace
I just discovered that the decision has been made to change the name. More about that here:

Jules from Gearslutz.com statement on petition to change GS name

Best,

Geoff

Well, good for Jules. It's great that he's responsive, regardless of whether the change was needed or not. As he says, he'll never be able to please everybody.

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Originally Posted by Nowarezman
yeah man, I'm totally the house N***** in this new job.

No.

That's not an equivalence. That's ridiculous.



Quote
Like, say, you stub your toe and hobble a bit, so you play it up as a "funny cripple".

And your defense is that your humor is self-deprecating?


No.


In reality, humans are NUANCED.



NUANCE EXISTS.


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I just listened to the video. The owner’s rationale is certainly legitimate, particularly when he spoke about teachers referring students to the site for education and reference and were embarrassed to refer to it by name. In that context, I get it.


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If they would improve the level of moderator activity and reduce lenience considerably, I might even consider joining.
Too many loudmouth shit-stirrers on there. There are quite a few posters who have solid knowledge on useful topics but they are too often buried in the murk of belligerence and rampant ego strumming.

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Curious that people on Twitter are "praising" the renaming of GS that produce music with lyrics that would be considered porn 10 years ago.

Real derogatory intent SHOULD NOT be diluted by casting the net so wide that almost anything humorous is captured. If one wants to go on some Anakin Skywalker anti-comedy idealistic crusade it should be regarded as such. The only thing that could be left over is Joe Pera and chicken crossing the road jokes.


Maybe Jules should consider:

www.peoplethatlikegear.com
www.supergearlikers.com
www.proliferategearenthusiasts.com
www.superseriousgearpurchasers.com

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
Originally Posted by Nowarezman
yeah man, I'm totally the house N***** in this new job.

No.

That's not an equivalence. That's ridiculous.

In reality, humans are NUANCED.
NUANCE EXISTS.[/b]

Well I welcome your take on things sincerely (but hey, no need to yell and get all dramatic, sir.)

I don't see your response as something I can process as it's just negation, not discussion.

It's pretty simple to simple 'ol me - slut is a slur directed at women, derogatory and contemptuous. House N*** is an archaic slur directed at black slaves, derogatory and contemptuous. In one case, the guys call themselves "slutz" as a joke, knowing they are not really sluts as the term is commonly used. My made up example seems quite equivalent - they guy "tries on" the slur commonly used for someone else, and the "humor" is because he knows he's really no such thing.

So....I'm open to correction 24/7.

nat

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You're making a straw man.


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