Kurzweil Forte questions

[TJ Cornish]

I've had a long-time on and off relationship with Kurzweil - I've owned a K2600, PC2 and PC2R, and a PC3X. For most of the last 15 years I have been playing Korg - first the Oasys, and now Kronos. I am very familiar with the Korg workflow and love the flexibility, but I don't like the piano sound. Right now I'm using a bunch of external junk and running an audio interface and Keyscape. It sounds great, but it's a pain to lug that junk. I've listened to some Forte demos and think the pianos are very nice - Kurzweil has always been pretty good at those.

 

What has caused me to sell my Kurz gear twice now in the past is the absolute PITA that multimbral setup has been. I'm curious if that is improved in the Forte.

 

My Kronos workflow is the following:

- I dig through the patch library, find what I like, tweak to taste, and note down.

- Go to Combi (aka setup) mode, call up my template combi that has some global effects (reverb/delay) and a click track routed to an aux output

- Use the Copy from Program function to pull in my patches to the combi setup. This automatically brings over the effects from the program (within the EFX slot capability of the board)

- Save the combi

- In set list mode, make an object for the combi

- Arrange the set list objects into a show file for one button recall of setups.

 

How much of this is similar on the Forte? I recall from my PC3X that there is a similar "copy from program to combi" function, but as the PC3X had only like 8 fx blocks, it rarely was enough for even a 4-layer combi.

Is there a "set list" mode?

Is there an easy way to get a click track?

 

I'm frustrated that Korg hasn't released anything material since 2013 or so. I realize the Forte platform is 5 years old, too, so some of this is probably GAS, but I'm also looking for a board for my church to use and I'm struggling to recommend a Kronos due to how long it's been around (new paint jobs don't count as product development). I'm a fairly technical user, but VAST has defeated me in the past, while I've had no trouble getting what I want out of the Kronos including analog synth patch creation from scratch, so that makes me a little afraid that I'm in for a third round of less-than-complete satisfaction from team Kurz, and makes me concerned that the other players at my church will not get any farther into the thing than a simple piano/pad setup.

 

Thanks for any input on the above ramblings.

 

TJ

[Iconoclast]

It's really pretty similar on the Forte to make a multi.

 

Forte doesn't have a setlist mode, but it does have favorites which are simple to assign and you can pedal advance through them. Everything needs to be done on the instrument as the SoundTower Librarian is less than reliable (I'm being generous).

 

I've never used Forte to generate a click track but it's certainly doable and I'm pretty sure I've seen a youtube tutorial on how. Easy? Not sure how to grade that.

 

Unless you're building some really big multi's I think the Forte has plenty of horsepower in the effects dept. Editing effects in the Forte can be a bit of a mystery sometimes. Forte has the most complicated effects pages of anything I've ever worked with.

 

Yes, VAST is a PITA, and if it defeated you before, I don't think they've done anything to make it any easier to deal with except make the screen bigger.

[jeffincltnc]

I had a Forte 7 for about 3 years and I was really fluent in making multis from other presets and effects in a very short amount of time. The sonic quality of the instrument for pianos, acoustic instruments, electric pianos and clavs were all top notch. The sounds that Dave Weiser built, along with Purgatory Creek and some patience to get the Forte 7 to do what I wanted made it a really good instrument.

 

On top of that, there are bargains to buy Forte used. For whatever reason (demand, marketing) they don't hold their value between new and used as well as others, so if you can find a Forte in the $2,000 - $2,500 range in great condition, you should buy it.

 

The one area I had difficulty with was VAST. I enjoyed the performance features, but I didn't take the time to really get where I wanted in the sound programming side of VAST. It is powerful and it does actually make sense, but just takes a while to get through it.

 

The other weakness is the Leslie sim is disappointing. You probably want a Vent or another organ app if you want a more believable B3.

 

Other than that, it's an outstanding instrument.

[aellison62]

TJ, I own a Kronos X and a Forte 7. I gig with that setup. I can tell you that those two boards are dynamite together and really compliment each other. I do use the Kronos setlist extensively and love it. I also use the Forte"s favorites. Multis are easy to make on the Forte and it"s FX boxes and chains are top notch quality. You do have to watch how many inset FX you end up stacking in a multi. There is a great tutorial video showing how to do that by Valentin Zopp. He moderates a FB group for Forte users that is excellent. VAST is still just as complicated as it was with PC series (I also own a PC361 that I use at church, but more about that in a minute).

 

Do I create from scratch on the Kronos, yes. On the Forte, not very much. I tweak existing programs on the Forte and make lots of great Multis, use chord triggers, and arps.I have modified the Leslie sim so much that I use the KB3 on the Forte for my organs almost all the time (instead of the Kronos)

 

I also play keyboards in my church"s praise band. Very contemporary music you hear on CCM radio stations today. I struggle trying to deliver those contemporay keyboards with our (very old) Roland 700nx and my old PC361. I do much more than piano and pads, but really, for today"s music you need a software based setup. Mac or Pc running Mainstage or Ableton and using Sunday Keys, for instance. A second best option to me WOULD be a Kronos 2 88 key. You can still do a heck of a lot with a Kronos for worship music that a stage piano can"t do. And the setlist option would be extremely useful.

 

And often times,, just like in my church, there may be multiple volunteers playing keys with a large variation in experience and programming capability. For this reason especially, I would not recommend a Forte for worship/ church use. But I would recommend it for a more professional keyboardist playing gigs or recording.

 

Hope this helps, it is just my opinion but maybe it makes sense to you.

[TJ Cornish]

Thank you all for the information. Some of this is what I was afraid to hear - it's still a PC3 on steroids. I may try to find a used one, otherwise it probably would be wise for me to wait for the Fivete.

 

Aellison62 - I'm interested to hear what you think requires a software setup. I tried very hard to like Mainstage a few years ago, but was unsuccessful. Between obscene RAM usage when changing patches in a show (patches load new copies of the plug-ins unless you add them globally which creates other problems), lousy multiple MIDI channel capabilities, and DIY legos that are hard to reuse, poor patch management, and crashing, I found it a mess. I know Mainstage and Ableton are popular (along with using a Nord as a $4000 MIDI controller), but I apparently haven't discovered the magic.

 

The Kronos isn't perfect either - the rigid bank structure is a bit of a pain, but the all-in-one appliance model of the Kronos or any other pro keyboard makes in my experience a more reliable and predictable system. My church work sounds very similar to yours. There are a couple songs where I have had a little trouble recreating a sound on the Kronos, but that's the extreme minority; if anything I think a lot of worship music synth sounds are pretty basic and well within the capability of he Kronos. I would love to know what I'm missing.

 

Right now I use Omnisphere as the host for Keyscape as it works like a simple multitimbral sound module - exactly what I want with the Kronos doing all of the splits/layers, etc. I used to use Mainstage, but the setup to be able to receive on different MIDI channels and get everything routed where it needed to go was onerous and unreliable even on a pretty highly-spec'd machine. I haven't looked seriously at Mainstage in about 3 years, so maybe it's better now.

 

I hope I don't come across as defensive - that's not my intention in the least; I just clearly don't understand the appeal of the software world even after I have given it what I think is a pretty fair go. I would sincerely love your perspective.

 

TJ

[Iconoclast]

Mainstage can be a bit of an enigma. The last couple years I've made good use of Alias patches for commonly used things like pianos and organs. Really saves on system usage. I don't bus up any effects either. For all my commonly used stuff I keep one folder of all those patches and then paste them as aliases to different places in my setlist. That folder usually holds 2 pianos, rhodes, wurli, a mapped out organ w/drawbars, a synth lead, and maybe some other stuff common to the specific band that I'm playing in.

 

I had a 13 inch MBP that was hi-spec that couldn't handle mainstage at all. I suspect it was the "integrated graphics" that Apple used on the smaller screened MBPs. I upgraded to a similar spec'ed 15 inch with dedicated graphics and it has handled everything I can throw at it and runs bullet-proof.

 

My only real problem with Mainstage is I strongly prefer pianos/EPs from either my Nord or Kurz over Keyscape. Keyscape is great, and I'm sure to most listeners, there is absolutely no difference, but I can't seem to connect to it like the "real" keyboards. That being said, I've done more than one show on Mainstage alone, it's just too simple and quick for setup/teardown/small stage etc.

 

I've played in a band where the other keyboard player did 100% of the show on just mainstage sounds and a couple pianos from IK. I always thought he sounded great even though he complained about the piano feel! Great player. He would just fly in with a MBP and use my Nord with local off.

[TJ Cornish]

I ran Mainstage on a 2016 15" top-spec 16GB RAM Macbook Pro with all samples stored on the system SSD (in 2016 when I was attempting Mainstage work), so it would have been hard to have had a more powerful Mac for Mainstage.

 

I played around with aliases. There was some limitation I'm forgetting now - maybe controller values didn't change when switching patches so after a patch change I had to run all my sliders up and down to catch the values and get where I needed to go. I don't remember, but aliases weren't a magic bullet.

 

I actually really like a Wurly patch on the Kronos. The only thing I use Keyscape for is the piano. The Kronos pianos all are either gutless in the low mids and/or have weird honks in the midrange. The Keyscape piano is super well behaved and sits way better in the mix. It just sounds so much richer.

 

I wasn't in love with the PC3 KB3 mode/Leslie sim. I think the Kronos is better than the PC3 was - at least to the level of tweaking I did on the PC3 at the time, but obviously haven't heard the Forte to know what they've done to it. I have a Hammond XK-5 so for gigs where it's worth dragging two boards I'm sorted, but I do occasionally do some organ on the Kronos.

 

One thing my Oasys had which the Forte also has but the Kronos doesn't are the LED ladders on the faders to show you what value they are at. You can see this on the Kronos screen in Combi mode, but you can't see it in Set List mode unless you hit the control page, which you then have to switch back from to select the next song. My kingdom for motorized faders!!

[aellison62]

TJ Cornish, You originally asked how the Forte would compare to the Kronos you are currently using as far a multi-timbrality. I think I agree that the Kronos is better for worship music and if you are not crazy about the pianos on the Kronos, yes the Forte's are better, but my point was that the Forte wouldn't be as easily understood and utilized by everyone like the Kronos is. And yes, I think a Kronos is sufficient to cover today's CCM. It's just that Mainstage and Ableton Live are getting to be industry standards for serious worship productions. I currently don't use software for my church's needs but in the future, I can see myself moving that direction. And no, you don't need a $4000 Nord to control Omnisphere and Mainstage. Just a good, up to date 88 key controller. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my Forte, but VAST is not for everyone. Now, I haven't checked out the PC4.....

[Bif_]

 

I wasn't in love with the PC3 KB3 mode/Leslie sim. I think the Kronos is better than the PC3 was - at least to the level of tweaking I did on the PC3 at the time, but obviously haven't heard the Forte to know what they've done to it.

 

Regarding comments in this thread related to the PC3/Forte Leslie, I believe the effects program I'm using works well in the live setting (no disrespect to anyone's opinion). Watch this video for a comparison of it to a real Leslie.

 

I recently sold my PC3 and purchases a Forte. The organs/leslie effect on the Forte did not knock my socks off when compared to the PC3. They are mostly the same or at least similar (but certainly not bad).

 

I own a Neo Vent and love it. The PC3/Forte effect is obviously not as good, but in a live band setting I enjoy using it. I've taken the Vent before and for ease of use, it's just not worth switching the Vent to bypass when using other sounds and again, it gets harder to discern in a band. (FWIW, top 40/contemporary church band).

 

I still rely on the program that's demonstrated in the video. It also can dial in some distortion (using the mod wheel) that adds a very nice grit to the tone. It suits me well and evokes the Leslie vibe well. I can't say how it compares to the Kronos as I don't have direct knowledge.

 

 

[TJ Cornish]

TJ Cornish, You originally asked how the Forte would compare to the Kronos you are currently using as far a multi-timbrality. I think I agree that the Kronos is better for worship music and if you are not crazy about the pianos on the Kronos, yes the Forte's are better, but my point was that the Forte wouldn't be as easily understood and utilized by everyone like the Kronos is. And yes, I think a Kronos is sufficient to cover today's CCM. It's just that Mainstage and Ableton Live are getting to be industry standards for serious worship productions. I currently don't use software for my church's needs but in the future, I can see myself moving that direction. And no, you don't need a $4000 Nord to control Omnisphere and Mainstage. Just a good, up to date 88 key controller. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my Forte, but VAST is not for everyone. Now, I haven't checked out the PC4.....

 

You may have taken my post as criticism/pushback - I'm sorry if that's the case - it's not my intent, and not your job to defend the software world; I was just curious if you had some first-hand experience with limitations of hardware synths.

 

I have PTSD from working with a hipster - there are things I associate with the "cool" factor rather than any musical advantage, e.g. using a Shure SM7 studio microphone live, or as mentioned above, taking a $4000 Nord directly into Mainstage because it's red, and that's what the big churches use, even though a $600 midi controller would do the same thing. In my personal experience these things are often done to compensate for talent deficiency, and represent really poor stewardship of church funds.

 

Thanks for your replies - they are appreciated!

[TJ Cornish]

 

I wasn't in love with the PC3 KB3 mode/Leslie sim. I think the Kronos is better than the PC3 was - at least to the level of tweaking I did on the PC3 at the time, but obviously haven't heard the Forte to know what they've done to it.

 

Regarding comments in this thread related to the PC3/Forte Leslie, I believe the effects program I'm using works well in the live setting (no disrespect to anyone's opinion). Watch this video for a comparison of it to a real Leslie.

 

I recently sold my PC3 and purchases a Forte. The organs/leslie effect on the Forte did not knock my socks off when compared to the PC3. They are mostly the same or at least similar (but certainly not bad).

 

I own a Neo Vent and love it. The PC3/Forte effect is obviously not as good, but in a live band setting I enjoy using it. I've taken the Vent before and for ease of use, it's just not worth switching the Vent to bypass when using other sounds and again, it gets harder to discern in a band. (FWIW, top 40/contemporary church band).

 

I still rely on the program that's demonstrated in the video. It also can dial in some distortion (using the mod wheel) that adds a very nice grit to the tone. It suits me well and evokes the Leslie vibe well. I can't say how it compares to the Kronos as I don't have direct knowledge.

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

The YouTube link doesn't appear to work. Would love to hear it!

[Bif_]

 

The YouTube link doesn't appear to work. Would love to hear it!

 

Link fixed in my post.

[AnotherScott]

My issue with the Kurz rotary sim in that video is too much pitch warble at the high speed, it's like a seasick version of a Leslie. Can that aspect be edited down?

[Al Coda]

My issue with the Kurz rotary sim in that video is too much pitch warble at the high speed, it's like a seasick version of a Leslie. Can that aspect be edited down?

 

Yep,- as a PC361 owner, I´d say that´s the main issue of the PC3´s rotary sim.

It can be edited to a degree by time consuming experimentation.

I´ve found "beamwidth" and "size" parameters useful as also mic angles and mic levels.

The problem is, w/ so many specialized parameters KURZ leslie sim offers, for a common user it´s hard to imagine what they really do even there´s a description in the user guide.

I also found it not perfect using mic angle and level parameters for each mic instead offering some classic preprogrammed mic setups and offer a mic-distance parameter for a whole set.

 

A.C.

[ProfD]

I am very familiar with the Korg workflow and love the flexibility, but I don't like the piano sound.

 

I'm also looking for a board for my church to use and I'm struggling to recommend a Kronos...

 

I'm in for a third round of less-than-complete satisfaction from team Kurz, and makes me concerned that the other players at my church will not get any farther into the thing than a simple piano/pad setup.

IMO, this could be both a GAS flare-up and/or boredom. If it ain't broke, there's really no reason to fix it.

 

Your Kronos is a known quantity. I would keep that as the main board on bottom. Replace the "junk" with a Roland FA-06 on the top-tier. Roland has every CCM sound imaginable.

 

If the "other" players at the church aren't technologically savvy, recommend a digital piano. A Roland RD-2000 is filled with the types of sounds volunteer and auxiliary KB players will use.

 

That way, if you don't feel like bringing the Kronos, just pop the FA-06 on the top tier above the RD-2000 and keep rolling.

[TJ Cornish]

I am very familiar with the Korg workflow and love the flexibility, but I don't like the piano sound.

 

I'm also looking for a board for my church to use and I'm struggling to recommend a Kronos...

 

I'm in for a third round of less-than-complete satisfaction from team Kurz, and makes me concerned that the other players at my church will not get any farther into the thing than a simple piano/pad setup.

IMO, this could be both a GAS flare-up and/or boredom. If it ain't broke, there's really no reason to fix it.

 

Your Kronos is a known quantity. I would keep that as the main board on bottom. Replace the "junk" with a Roland FA-06 on the top-tier. Roland has every CCM sound imaginable.

 

If the "other" players at the church aren't technologically savvy, recommend a digital piano. A Roland RD-2000 is filled with the types of sounds volunteer and auxiliary KB players will use.

 

That way, if you don't feel like bringing the Kronos, just pop the FA-06 on the top tier above the RD-2000 and keep rolling.

The "Junk" is my laptop and Keyscape. If I have something on top, it's the XK-5.

 

Right now I carry a rack around with a MOTU mixer/audio interface (828x), my in-ear transmitter, and a docking station for the Mac so i just have one cable to plug in. It's reasonably elegant as far as that much stuff can be, but I'd love to have an option for a one-board setup that has all the good stuff of the Kronos but a better piano sound.

 

Roland is interesting - 20 years ago I was all Roland. I still have my XP-80 - it was the first keyboard I really dug into and understood well. I then bought the original Fantom when it came out, and was incredibly disappointed. I assumed it would be better than the XP-80 as it was the new thing, but it wasn't - in spite of the big screen it was harder to use and the keyboard action was worse. That was what pushed me to my first Kurzweil - a PC2.

 

I've followed along a little bit to the new Fantom. It looks interesting and I've always liked Roland hardware build quality, but the jury seems to be out on the completeness of the instrument. The various Fantoms in between - the G and whatnot - those seem to have had a fairly short life and were never really finished. I will have to give the new one another look.

[TJ Cornish]

 

The YouTube link doesn't appear to work. Would love to hear it!

 

Link fixed in my post.

Still not working for me, sorry.

[Moonglow]

...I'd love to have an option for a one-board setup that has all the good stuff of the Kronos but a better piano sound.

Have you considered a third-party sample? That"s how I 'fixed' the Kronos piano.

 

Epic Grand

[Bif_]

 

The YouTube link doesn't appear to work. Would love to hear it!

 

Link fixed in my post.

Still not working for me, sorry.

 

Sorry it's not working. You can also search "pc3 Leslie comparison" on YouTube to find this.

 

Try this.

 

"https://youtu.be/616uZSd6xmg" (copy and paste without the quote marks)

[Bif_]

I've listened to some Forte demos and think the pianos are very nice

 

All manner of pianos in the Kurz. They are wonderful.

 

What has caused me to sell my Kurz gear twice now in the past is the absolute PITA that multimbral setup has been. I'm curious if that is improved in the Forte.

 

Setting up splits and layers is dead simple on the Forte, much, much easier than on the PC3. Dedicated buttons allow setting up to a four sounds (layered or split) with ease. Easy to change key ranges and octaves.

 

How much of this is similar on the Forte? I recall from my PC3X that there is a similar "copy from program to combi" function, but as the PC3X had only like 8 fx blocks, it rarely was enough for even a 4-layer combi.

 

It's possible to run out of FX blocks but I don't consider that to be a practical limitation.

 

Is there a "set list" mode?........

 

The Forte has 'Favorites', with 10 sounds on dedicated buttons directly beneath the display. This single feature (IMO) makes the Forte extremely desirable for a church setting where many users can't navigate otherwise. I've set ours up so that any of or players knows they have strings, EP, AP, organ, several synth pads, etc., easily accessible. I also set up the AP and EP's so that additional layers have various string/pads layered. These can be combined with each other or the EP or AP, creating many variations under one 'Favorite'.

 

but I'm also looking for a board for my church to use ........ makes me concerned that the other players at my church will not get any farther into the thing than a simple piano/pad setup.

 

I can't speak to the ease of use of the Kronos (as a comparison) as I don't have any direct knowledge, but I think the Forte's user interface is about as easy at it can get for a high-end synth. This facet of this thread is very complex. When you start talking about the caliber of player available. Mainstage has been mentioned and I'm savvy enough to figure it out, but I don't want to be the 'Mainstage' guy at our church and therefore be forced to set up all those programs for every song we do. (Yes, we're doing top 40 Christian worship music). We've used some tracks for some synth parts on occasion but mostly have a piano player and a 'keys' player. As our 'keys' player, I cover as much as I can on a Motif and the Forte. Trying to cover signature lead synth parts, pads, often adding organ parts that might not otherwise exist, while blending "make it sound like the record" and "make it your own".

 

Many layers to this onion.

[TJ Cornish]

Moonglow - I have auditioned a KaPro piano from the Kong store, but didn"t fall in love. I appreciate the recommendation.

 

Bif - thanks for your input. I have read the manual and I think the favorite buttons are probably close enough to SetList mode to work for me - they seem pretty easy to set.

 

We currently use Mainstage with a cruddy 61-key synth action controller for the house board, and the knowledge on the team is pretty marginal. I have no doubt that the Forte would be easy to bring to the low level of functionality we are currently achieving with Mainstage, which amounts to a piano and maybe two different pads. The question is how much further I could nudge the team with either a Kronos or a Forte. The jury is out on that.

 

NAMM is imminent. My expectations are low for something new from Korg, but maybe I"ll be surprised and the perfect thing will fall in my lap.

[Mighty Motif Max]

KSounds and KaPro are different companies FYI.

 

Personally, I wish I had realized years ago that the Kronos was designed to be expanded with libraries so much - I would have bought one in an instant back when I bought my Motif. That German Grand really turned me off and so to the Motif I went. Still very happy with my XF8 but still, had I known...

 

There's that Yamaha C5 Salamander Grand that IIRC is free for the Kronos that has sounded pretty good in demos too.

 

Someday I might revamp my entire rig to something along the lines of a Kronos successor and a PC4-7. Particularly if Yamaha doesn't fix their stupid midi and sequencer bungles.

[TJ Cornish]

KSounds and KaPro are different companies FYI.

 

Personally, I wish I had realized years ago that the Kronos was designed to be expanded with libraries so much - I would have bought one in an instant back when I bought my Motif. That German Grand really turned me off and so to the Motif I went. Still very happy with my XF8 but still, had I known...

 

There's that Yamaha C5 Salamander Grand that IIRC is free for the Kronos that has sounded pretty good in demos too.

 

Someday I might revamp my entire rig to something along the lines of a Kronos successor and a PC4-7. Particularly if Yamaha doesn't fix their stupid midi and sequencer bungles.

In most ways the Kronos/Oasys is incredible. When the Oasys came out in 2005 I was in heaven. I had a Triton before that that I really didn't love. The Oasys fixed everything I disliked about the Triton - sliders instead of knobs, WAY better pianos (not in the realm of what would sound good today but the Triton piano was truly awful), gorgeous screen, LED ladders around knobs and sliders, etc.

 

In some ways the Kronos was a step back from the Oasys - build quality is not as good (wood bottom, plastic sides, wimpy faders and knobs), and I sorely miss the LED ladders, but they added the drum track mode which was even easier to implement a click track than what I did on the Oasys (using one of the pads to trigger). Pianos got better than the Oasys, and they added Set List mode, which I use extensively. I love the Note feature - I can even put hard to remember song lyrics there to eliminate the music factor.

 

Things that I would love to have fixed on a Kronos successor:

- Better piano sound

- LED ladders on faders or even better yet motorized faders

- Less than 3 minute boot time

- Fix rigid bank structure and too few program slots. The Kronos has a zillion sound libraries available but no place to put them without external patch management.

- More insert effects. For non-technical users, I feel this is the biggest barrier on workstations - single programs don't sound the same in combi/multi modes. Yamaha and Roland handle this by having simplistic effects. Korg and Kurzweil's approaches are to go nuts with effects usage but then make the user manage it. The 12 IFX that the Kronos has are usually enough, and I'm glad to hear that the Forte's 32 blocks are usually enough.

- Similar to the above, layers can chow polyphony and some programs need to be pared back to not overwhelm the keyboard.

- More sample RAM. The streaming from disk is very cool and allows only the stubs of the samples to be needed in RAM; the rest stream off the SSD. Still, there are limits to how much stuff you can load in available RAM (see limits of being able to use 3rd party sound libraries)

 

 

Things I would love on a future Kurzweil:

- Larger screen/touch screen. The Forte is a clear improvement over the PC3/K series screen, but there's a lot of room for improvement

- Emulation of simpler/conventional analog synth programming in some way (or a quality VAST tutorial to make sense of the block routing)

- More polyphony/effects blocks so less management is necessary (holy grail is all programs sound the same when put into multi mode.)

- Motorized faders!!

[Bif_]

 

Things I would love on a future Kurzweil:

- Larger screen/touch screen. The Forte is a clear improvement over the PC3/K series screen, but there's a lot of room for improvement

- Emulation of simpler/conventional analog synth programming in some way (or a quality VAST tutorial to make sense of the block routing)

- More polyphony/effects blocks so less management is necessary (holy grail is all programs sound the same when put into multi mode.)

 

Not to belabor my responses, but;

- Yes, the Forte is way ahead and one of the main benefits I'm enjoying versus the PC3 I previously owned.

- Kurzweil's website has a ton of programs. You can load any of the PC3's programs into the Forte so you should be able to find something similar to what you're looking for and tweak as opposed to creating a sound from scratch. I'm a tweaker, not a programmer, and this has served me well.

- The PC4 has 256 note polyphony but less FX blocks. In my experience, the Forte's polyphony isn't a practical limitation. If you're trying to layer 4 pads with long decays, you may run into problems, but generally speaking, you don't need to do that. Layering sounds that don't have long decays, Kurzweils voice stealing algorithm works extremely well.

 

But I agree with what you've said, I'd like more of everything too.

 

I must say, I'm intrigued by the Kronos, but I can't justify the expense. Looks like a wonderful machine.

[TJ Cornish]

The Oasys/Kronos were way ahead of their time. Unfortunately the platform has had only relatively minor changes since 2011. The Kurzweil legacy I suppose is at least as impressive - the K2000 was what, 1992?, and programs still load in the Forte.

 

I need to make peace with the fact that hardware synths are reaching maturity and changes are evolutionary and relatively infrequent.

[Mighty Motif Max]

KSounds and KaPro are different companies FYI.

 

Personally, I wish I had realized years ago that the Kronos was designed to be expanded with libraries so much - I would have bought one in an instant back when I bought my Motif. That German Grand really turned me off and so to the Motif I went. Still very happy with my XF8 but still, had I known...

 

There's that Yamaha C5 Salamander Grand that IIRC is free for the Kronos that has sounded pretty good in demos too.

 

Someday I might revamp my entire rig to something along the lines of a Kronos successor and a PC4-7. Particularly if Yamaha doesn't fix their stupid midi and sequencer bungles.

In most ways the Kronos/Oasys is incredible. When the Oasys came out in 2005 I was in heaven. I had a Triton before that that I really didn't love. The Oasys fixed everything I disliked about the Triton - sliders instead of knobs, WAY better pianos (not in the realm of what would sound good today but the Triton piano was truly awful), gorgeous screen, LED ladders around knobs and sliders, etc.

 

In some ways the Kronos was a step back from the Oasys - build quality is not as good (wood bottom, plastic sides, wimpy faders and knobs), and I sorely miss the LED ladders, but they added the drum track mode which was even easier to implement a click track than what I did on the Oasys (using one of the pads to trigger). Pianos got better than the Oasys, and they added Set List mode, which I use extensively. I love the Note feature - I can even put hard to remember song lyrics there to eliminate the music factor.

 

Things that I would love to have fixed on a Kronos successor:

- Better piano sound

- LED ladders on faders or even better yet motorized faders

- Less than 3 minute boot time

- Fix rigid bank structure and too few program slots. The Kronos has a zillion sound libraries available but no place to put them without external patch management.

- More insert effects. For non-technical users, I feel this is the biggest barrier on workstations - single programs don't sound the same in combi/multi modes. Yamaha and Roland handle this by having simplistic effects. Korg and Kurzweil's approaches are to go nuts with effects usage but then make the user manage it. The 12 IFX that the Kronos has are usually enough, and I'm glad to hear that the Forte's 32 blocks are usually enough.

- Similar to the above, layers can chow polyphony and some programs need to be pared back to not overwhelm the keyboard.

- More sample RAM. The streaming from disk is very cool and allows only the stubs of the samples to be needed in RAM; the rest stream off the SSD. Still, there are limits to how much stuff you can load in available RAM (see limits of being able to use 3rd party sound libraries)

 

 

Things I would love on a future Kurzweil:

- Larger screen/touch screen. The Forte is a clear improvement over the PC3/K series screen, but there's a lot of room for improvement

- Emulation of simpler/conventional analog synth programming in some way (or a quality VAST tutorial to make sense of the block routing)

- More polyphony/effects blocks so less management is necessary (holy grail is all programs sound the same when put into multi mode.)

- Motorized faders!!

 

Ya know, I forgot one thing I dislike about both Korg and Kurzweil - their guitars and electric basses are not good at all. Yamaha on the other hand seems to be much better in that area than any other manufacturer, including Roland. I don't see why that is, but I can easily add a guitar (electric in particular) and/or an electric bass sound to my layers (or split on its own) and it will be close to indistinguishable from the real thing. Yeah there are some playing techniques that aren't quite able to be replicated, but the tone and sound quality is exact. I use them enough that I guess I would need a Yamaha.

 

Seems an odd priority for a *keyboard* player, I know...

[bfields]

Things that I would love to have fixed on a Kronos successor:

- Better piano sound

- LED ladders on faders or even better yet motorized faders

- Less than 3 minute boot time

- Fix rigid bank structure and too few program slots. The Kronos has a zillion sound libraries available but no place to put them without external patch management.

- More insert effects. For non-technical users, I feel this is the biggest barrier on workstations - single programs don't sound the same in combi/multi modes. Yamaha and Roland handle this by having simplistic effects. Korg and Kurzweil's approaches are to go nuts with effects usage but then make the user manage it. The 12 IFX that the Kronos has are usually enough, and I'm glad to hear that the Forte's 32 blocks are usually enough.

- Similar to the above, layers can chow polyphony and some programs need to be pared back to not overwhelm the keyboard.

- More sample RAM. The streaming from disk is very cool and allows only the stubs of the samples to be needed in RAM; the rest stream off the SSD. Still, there are limits to how much stuff you can load in available RAM (see limits of being able to use 3rd party sound libraries)

 

From the reports of Kronos hackers, the obstacle to RAM limit is the 32-bit OS. An upgrade to 64 bits (or just teaching it to uses highmem?) doesn't seem like it should be *that* hard. That plus an incremental upgrade to the commodity hardware inside, and maybe a little time profiling the boot process, would cover 4 or 5 of your requests without the need for a major redesign.

 

Seems like such a popular model would merit that kind of incremental maintenance. But, I can't claim to understand the economics of these things....

[Lady Gaia]

From the reports of Kronos hackers, the obstacle to RAM limit is the 32-bit OS. An upgrade to 64 bits (or just teaching it to uses highmem?) doesn't seem like it should be *that* hard.

 

It's rarely quite so simple. It can be a fairly straightforward process In an actively maintained code base where every aspect sees ongoing development by competent and engaged engineers, where rigorous tests can tell you quickly when something no longer works as intended, where all of the third-party dependencies are continuously updated to newer revisions, and where your management is willing to invest in future potential at a comparable level to adding new features.

 

I've rarely had the luxury of working with a team that disciplined, even though I've spend decades in senior leadership roles where I'm advocating for all of the above.

 

Chances are there isn't a dedicated team at all. That there's a lot of code any developer would be afraid to touch because it isn't documented and there aren't adequate tests. That it depends on libraries more than a decade old, written by other companies that have made dramatic changes before their own 64-bit migration so the newer version is fundamentally incompatible with the Kronos code. It's virtually guaranteed that each update over the years is a tightly budgeted attempt to get a feature done with the bare minimum of cost. That shortcuts were taken by applying the software equivalent of duct tape to hold it all together.

 

It might sound like I'm disparaging Korg and the Kronos team. That's not my intent. This is just the reality of most modern software development. Per the obligatory XKCD comic...

 

[bfields]

Yeah, that's all very believable.

 

Seems so shortsighted, and such a waste of human effort, to build things like this in a way that forces you to throw them away.

[safari70]

For someone coming from a s/w engineering background and recently got involved in blockchain development I can't but fully agree!

 

 

From the reports of Kronos hackers, the obstacle to RAM limit is the 32-bit OS. An upgrade to 64 bits (or just teaching it to uses highmem?) doesn't seem like it should be *that* hard.

 

It's rarely quite so simple. It can be a fairly straightforward process In an actively maintained code base where every aspect sees ongoing development by competent and engaged engineers, where rigorous tests can tell you quickly when something no longer works as intended, where all of the third-party dependencies are continuously updated to newer revisions, and where your management is willing to invest in future potential at a comparable level to adding new features.

 

I've rarely had the luxury of working with a team that disciplined, even though I've spend decades in senior leadership roles where I'm advocating for all of the above.

 

Chances are there isn't a dedicated team at all. That there's a lot of code any developer would be afraid to touch because it isn't documented and there aren't adequate tests. That it depends on libraries more than a decade old, written by other companies that have made dramatic changes before their own 64-bit migration so the newer version is fundamentally incompatible with the Kronos code. It's virtually guaranteed that each update over the years is a tightly budgeted attempt to get a feature done with the bare minimum of cost. That shortcuts were taken by applying the software equivalent of duct tape to hold it all together.

 

It might sound like I'm disparaging Korg and the Kronos team. That's not my intent. This is just the reality of most modern software development. Per the obligatory XKCD comic...